Legal Experts: Even TOTALLY INNOCENT People Should Avoid Talking to Law Enforcement

AmberLeaf
Ahh you are in the land of the free (sarcasm), i am in England, maybe your laws operate different than to over here, even though we gave you the legal system you operate under.

Technically, no...I am a Canadian but I place little or no signifigance on nationality.
Nation...Tax Farm...same thing.
National borders are simply the places where blood met blood and could go no further.

Inalienable rights cannot be taken, not talking is an inalienable right, they cannot force you to say anything.....unless you are in Guantanamo.

Over here, silence without invoking the fifth prior to being read Miranda is considered an admission of guilt by law enforcement and the courts.
(Not to mention it could result in you being the victem of police brutality if you catch the roid-heads on a bad day.)
As for inalienable human rights, those don't legally apply to "citizens".

Even if you are guilty as sin, caught in the act of some crime...you can say nothing, even when apprehended and initially questioned. By them telling you your rights they are ensuring you have a choice, tell us stuff and we will use it against you, or stay silent and we will have to do a load more work.

The difference is the legal definition.
What you describe is true...for a "human being". I believe the UK refers to them as "Sovereigns" but the Commonwealth legal systems still recognizes "Natural Law" while the American system is solely Maritime Admirality Law or "The law of the Sea".

(re. The law of Business)

The rest are "statutes" or "ordinances" which can only effect "citizens" or "persons". It's worth noting that corperations are now considered "persons" in every legal sence of the word, even surpassing the rights of the citizenry. Citizens have no rights as they are legally defined as property of the state.

"A "citizen", in general, is a member of a free city or jural society, (civ-itas.) possessing all the rights and privileges which can be enjoyed by any person under its constitution and government, and subject to the corresponding duties."

Law Dictionary: thelawdictionary.org...

www.natural-person.ca...

It's all wordplay and legal deception.
At least such is my understanding.

-Amitabha-

reply to post by Eryiedes


For a minute there i thought you was going to go all Freeman of the Land on me lol.

Here in the UK we are Subjects, and citizens Subjects have no voice/rights, citizens have both rights and a voice....allegedly.

I still do not understand the concept of by saying nothing, you could incriminate yourself.

Isnt a person just something or someone who can ask from protection from the law.

A corporation is a "person" for purposes of the constitutional guarantees of equal protection of laws and Due Process of Law

I agree that the language of law looks nothing like the language we use daily. Its made complicated so only certain people can understand it (years of study) and statutes are created to keep law enforcement, the court system and the countless other people who rely upon crime, in jobs.

Its illegal to do a lot of things, lots of stupid things where there is no victim....littering, Jwalking, not filling in the Electrol role, blah blah etc etc.

reply to post by Eryiedes


isn't every goal of an LOE now is to recruit for the ever growing prison-industrial complex?

Eryiedes
reply to post by AmberLeaf

 

Not according to the supreme court.
Until Miranda is read to you the only way to not answer them legally is to invoke the fifth.
Anything else will be percieved and treated as an admission of guilt in court of law.
We are not free and I am beginning to doubt we ever were.
As bad as things seem now, you will look back on all this in a decade and fondly reminise about how the police ONLY shot children they THOUGHT had a toy gun...or about how they used to only taser the disabled 31 TIMES while strapped to a bed...or that police only raped suspects they felt "deserved" it.
As nightmarish as any of those examples sounded, the only thing the state has in store for humanity will make you long for some good old fashioned police brutality.
Just wait till we start getting sent to FEMA camps for disbelieving state propaganda...

-Amitabha-

edit on 8-11-2013 by Eryiedes because: Typo

edit on 8-11-2013 by Eryiedes because: Re-edit

That is something that struck me. For many years people looked back at the incident at "Kent State" in shame - fake cops killed students over nothing life threatening. Now, in the next decade we can look back and say, "gee, times were good in the 00's as they only pepper sprayed people sitting, tasered the old and infirm and shot children they feared, cup of coffee mom?" "yeah, it was the best of times son, when silence was a confession and kids never ran free for fear of being sent to CPS, I'll take sugars son."

reply to post by Eryiedes


Try using that Admiralty law stuff in a real court room and see how far you get. The whole, "I choose not to board the ship" nonsense is just that, nonsense.

If you're guilty, no fancy wordplay about common law, admiralty law or "natural person" will help you. If anything it will only prolong the inevitable.

MystikMushroom
reply to post by Eryiedes

 

Try using that Admiralty law stuff in a real court room and see how far you get. The whole, "I choose not to board the ship" nonsense is just that, nonsense.

If you're guilty, no fancy wordplay about common law, admiralty law or "natural person" will help you. If anything it will only prolong the inevitable.

You say this in an interesting, but incomplete way.

Are you saying the notion is valid, but that the thugs in charge don't care?

Are you saying you have worked this part of the system to perfection and failed?

Are you saying, "ah, jerkoff kids, they know nothing?"

Are you saying that even if the idea that people should be, and are, free, there is just no need for it because "guilt" is guilt? I'm lost as to the true nature of that point.

Since the majority of the fines, and jail time, community service, is as a result of the State being harmed, can you explain how the "State" itself is harmed? What is the State? So, for example, a speeding ticket is a fine that goes to the city for the damage you have caused the city, so what damage is that and how is that value determined?

If you hurt someone else and they are arrested, why does the fine go to the State?In fact, why do you pay for: police, court, atty, jail, etc and yet the fine goes to that same institutional set? If you want to get "whole" you have to sue in civil court, but the State is harmed by your damage more then you in it's eye, why?

I see so many folks simply say things like, "ah, shut up that crap doesn't work" yet they offer nothing by way of explanation at all. I always wonder why, as if one makes such a proclamation it must be born of personal experience, but if it was born of personal experience, why hide this fact under such an incomplete point?

Are you Free or not? Do you want to be Free or not?

Does anyone else recall the story of Hope Steffey? I think her case supports the OP's assertion that not even innocent people are safe anymore.

After being attacked by her cousin, she called 911 for help. When the police arrived, they ended up treating her like a criminal. After beating her for resisting, they arrested her.

What happened next is sickening.

Hope Steffey was then taken to the county jail and forcibly strip-searched by 6 to 7 male and female deputies, despite Stark County´s own policy which states that a strip search must be conducted by a same sex officer. She was left in a cell for 6 hours with no clothing or even a blanket and eventually wrapped herself in toilet tissue for warmth and modesty. She was not allowed a phone call or medical attention and when she was later taken to booking, she was given only a small weighted vest to cover her nudity. She was charged with disorderly conduct and resisting arrest.

Hope Steffey's Story

(I would have liked to have found a source I'm more familiar with but her story has been pretty well documented across the web)

Even the victims of crimes, whom the police are meant to protect, are not safe.

It's very sad when you cannot depend on those who are to protect and serve to help you.

Personally, after reading about some of these types of brutal encounters with the police, I'll think twice before calling them in the future.

Sad times we live in, that's for sure.

reply to post by crankyoldman


Tashi Delek,

I am implying that the police, lawyers and judges and other officials use specific words and phrases in the commital of their assigned posts designed to rob a "citizen" of the so-called "freedom" we are told we have. They are all specifically designed to circumvent the rights that citizens have.

(It's at the two minute point.)

Maryland State Trooper Tries To Ticket Sovereign Citizen Traveler

www.youtube.com...

The Sovereign Citizens allows for questions to be asked but the police must PAY MONEY ($1500 gold fee PER question!) just to ask him ANY information at all. The officer is legally powerless because the key phrases they use to trick individuals into relinquishing their rights (as a human...not citizen) were not able to be asked.
In effect, the officer becomes a "dog with no teeth" because HE is now in the hotseat.
Already having reason to believe there is NO ACTUAL THREAT, having to pay (out of his own pocket) an amount like $15K just for TEN questions, payable in gold...which will likely turn out to be a dead-end.
What LEO would shell out $1.5K+ just to issue a $200 citation?
The ironic part is that even if the man were guilty, the officer would STILL have to pay for the questions he asked.
You can't use the system to fight the system (because it's entirely too corrupt) but there are a few loopholes for those bold enough to risk them that allow one to avoid the pitfalls of police oppression with much a greater chance of success.
The trick is in not ending up in court. Once in court you've technically already lost. It's just a matter of how much money will you have to pay...fines, legal fees, damages, intrusive medical examination fees you are saddled with while in custody or possibly even bail.
That said, I am not a sovereign but I am looking into the success rates of its legal interpretations in a true court of law.

-Amitabha-

g146541
NEVER talk to any official of any sort.
Even to give a witness statement, have an attorney write it for you.
Anything you say can and WILL be used against you.

Yes I will just go to my bank and pull out the gobs of money that doesn't exist to hire a lawyer over that.
Firepiston

When I was young, I remember the police being friendly and helpful. Today, as I near 60 years old, I am keenly aware that local police have terrorized many of my friends and family members--most of whom live in small towns. By terrorize, I mean getting warrants based on an informant's information (usually a young junkie providing info about pot possession/sales in exchange for reduced sentence) that leads to masked police officers breaking into homes and looking for anything they can find --pot, guns, it doesn't matter if you have them legally (medical marijuana card, prescription for pain meds, license for gun) or not, the cops will do their best to criminalize and dehumanize their victims.

I know this--today's local cops are not here to serve or protect--they are here to terrorize. Period.

redoubt
reply to post by Eryiedes

 

The Supreme Court (or SCOTUS for the acronym minded) has decided that we the people no longer have the right to remain silent.
Due process is dead.
Habeas Corpus is a road block to the ever increasing tyranny of a government fearful of it's citizens.
There are so many laws now in the USA that NO ONE can go 24 hours WITHOUT breaking one and so conversely, the police (on the advice of top legal experts) should be avoided at all costs.
This is NOT a joke.
This is NOT a movie.
This is the story of your enslavement...but it's up to YOU to give this story a happy ending.

Personally, I have seen how law enforcement has changed between the 1960s/70s (think Andy of Mayberry and Adam-12) and what we see today. Cops now are more like para-military and their approach is less civil and more about total control. As someone who saw his (late) brother as a cop in Marietta, Ga. (US) and a step-daughter today who recently graduated from police academy, I don't take the subject lightly.

Our concept of 'peace officers' was once quite unique; each city/community had their own force, then there were the state police. We've never had a national police force. The FBI has (or 'had') never tried to overstep. As such, the cops in your town or city were local people who lived as your neighbors. They worked for the same end goals as those who paid taxes that paid them to 'serve and protect'.

That is now history... and unless We the People reverse this trend... we are in for the same kind of experience known to history from Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, etc.

The US Supreme Court was never intended to be a body that could stomp our constitution. Their job was to fill in the gaps the constitution didn't clearly cover. They were the bridge between the federal and the states...

There was a thread here a few nights back where it was submitted that the SCOTUS could legally rip down the 2nd amendment and that the people would be bound to obey. I disagree with that...

Part of the problem is that they are hiring a lot of MPs coming out of the service. nothing personal, but MPs shouldn't be doing civil policing.

reply to post by Eryiedes


Ive not seen those tactics work, ever...the one where you say to the cop they have to pay you for this that or the other.
Lots of people make videos of them telling the police this, only to be pulled from the car anyway and arrested.

They never get the money that they say they can claim, and there is rarely a follow up video explaining how they were told to stop being stupid and given multiple fines. There was one guy i saw, he tried it, in an uninsured, un taxxed Mercedes convertible. Cop pulls him over for no insurance, the guy starts arguing and handing the police big wads of paperwork through the window. The cop listens for a while, then decides he is getting nowhere so drags there guy from the car. There was never a follow up video after that, the next thing he started posting was him drinking urine and washing himself in it....a very strange guy to say the least.

No freeman as far as i know have ever won their cases.

reply to post by AmberLeaf


The only one I read about was a corrupt judge being arrested and his courthouse seized somewhere in the UK...but I never heard what became of it.
As for the freeman issue, I'm not advocating it.
I am leaning to your belief that it couldn't possibly hold up in court.
My only point was that the inability for the officer to ask the key phrases (which erode a citizens freedom) paralyzes them. Phrases like:

"May we come in?"

"Can we search in your car?"

"Show me some i.d."

And my personal favorite...

"Do you mind if we look around?"

All of these begin a daisy chain of rights violations and once you've submitted to one of them...you 're along for the ride and essentially at their mercy.

-Amitabha-

Anything and Everything can and will Be Used Against Me in any way shape or form

reply to post by rickymouse


Think you're missing the entire point here.

A good look into what it looks like to be on the inside of a surveillance state that has already gone where our government is headed

I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points:
1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.
Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.
With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.
2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, # it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.
3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.
You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.
4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "# you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a #ing wound on my leg?"
"Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.
Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.
You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.
This all happened in the country where I live.
You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.
Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?
You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing f

reply to post by Eryiedes


Just as they say when they read you your Miranda rights: “You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law"


Because they can and will use what you say against you, even spin it to fit the crime if they have to. I found out the hard way when questioned in regards to a crime someone else committed. The incident made national news. Long story short a friend of mine procured some property from a international famous company ( celebrities involved ) that is on TV every week. I will not state who or what to keep my anonymity private. A guy i know and worked with walked up to me on the job and told me he had "found it" and was going to take it home with him. Mind you it was covered up and i did not see it myself. This was in the place I worked as well as being filmed on security cameras. So I did not think nothing of it at the time however it did not make much sense why someone would leave said property behind. But hey not my problem right? I was skeptical whether to believe him.


A few detectives show up at my home when i was sleeping a week later and rolled me out of bed asking me do you know why we are here and I was a bit astonished, half awake and confused upon said question. Then they ask me a bunch of questions as to what happened. I was vague at first mind you i was a little hung over from being out the night before. Then i gave them my side of the story, they would say "we need your help" or "we are trying to help you" typical good cop bad cop act. I knew i was not guilty of anything, however little did I know they fingered me as being a "conspirator" by way of accessory after the fact. I started to remember more details as the questioning went on. This is when they went in to bad cop mode "oh so you knew he stole it" asserting things i did not say. I said "i wondered if he had stolen property" hence my thoughts somehow incriminated me because somehow i was suppose to play cop myself and stop this guy from leaving or call police... i dont know? They left abruptly after i had got defensive when they asserted my being involved. Come to find out they didnt need me to find this guy and recover the property because they visited him first after he had returned the property to my place of employment



Got charged with accessory after the fact days layer, was shocked. I was made out to be a thief in my local paper while providing no story of what happened so the rumors began. I was the get away driver, even stole said property myself. My reputation was ruined, yet i had done nothing and doing nothing is a crime in the eyes of the law. Yet there is no good Samaritan law in the books that says im suppose to call police if i think a crime has been committed.


The damage had been done, by the way my employer let this guy in the office grab the property and leave with it i mean let this guy leave with the property and did nothing and the employer is a contractor with the city. So the agenda was to shift the heat off the city contractor who had a big client lose track of the property and pin it on the little guy. Because one guy was not enough to explain how this guy could leave with the holy grail itself of _____ . The contractor i worked for would lose its contract with ____ and both would look like incompetent fools had the truth come to light. BTW its roadies left the property lying around and it was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.



Moral of the story is NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE


They dont care about you, they do what they are told, in my case the Police Chief and my Employer created this snow job. It could happen to anyone. I was standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Zoyd23
When I was young, I remember the police being friendly and helpful. Today, as I near 60 years old, I am keenly aware that local police have terrorized many of my friends and family members--most of whom live in small towns. By terrorize, I mean getting warrants based on an informant's information (usually a young junkie providing info about pot possession/sales in exchange for reduced sentence) that leads to masked police officers breaking into homes and looking for anything they can find --pot, guns, it doesn't matter if you have them legally (medical marijuana card, prescription for pain meds, license for gun) or not, the cops will do their best to criminalize and dehumanize their victims.

I know this--today's local cops are not here to serve or protect--they are here to terrorize. Period.

Actually I think they are here to acquire lucre from asset forfeiture. Usually the terrorize part is unimportant collateral damage. Usually.

I tell my family this. NEVER talk to the police! It's their JOB to put people (PEOPLE, even innocent ones) in JAIL!
I watched a 20/20 last week about a young woman who was convicted of killing her husband by pushing him out a winddow on the 26th floor. They used a video tape of her in the police interrogation room talking to her mother saying stuff like "I don't believe I killed him!" "I'm a terrible person" something a person feeling remorse would most certainly say. During the death, they were in a heated argument, pushing each other back and fourth (She had marks on her neck and front chest where he had put his hands on her hard enough to leave marks), and, the windows were not of current safety design. They were like 20" off the floor which would not make code these days just for this reason. If you were to hit it too hard, you'd go right through it. If this poor girl would have had a lawyer, she most likely would NOT have been convicted of First Degree.

reply to post by Eryiedes

Eryiedes

That said, I am not a sovereign but I am looking into the success rates of its legal interpretations in a true court of law.

You might start with this Wiki article on the subject.

I had some interaction with that crowd in Montana in the 1990's; all negative. Without exception those trying to recruit me and providing me with all the fraudulent information and video's were just common criminals using this to scam people and try to get out of their illegal activities. Many are in prison now or spent time there.

There is no such thing as a Sovereign and everyone should protect themselves from that scam by researching it and educating themselves so they don't get sucked in by the scam artists pushing it. The law is what has been legislated and is being enforced today, not some fantasy based on the crap they spout. You will find a multitude of examples of them being rightly put behind bars.

Some examples of those involved.

2010

In May 2010, two police officers in West Memphis, Arkansas were shot and killed by Joseph T. Kane after Kane and his father were the subject of a traffic stop. Kane and his father were later identified as members of the sovereign citizen movement.[32][33]

In September 2010, David Russell Myrland, an associate of a sovereign citizens group, sent emails and placed telephone calls to various officials of the City of Kirkland, Washington, telling them to "keep their doors unlocked", that they were going to be arrested, and that they "should not resist".[34] Myrland also reportedly threatened federal judges and the chief prosecutor of King County, Washington.[35] Myrland's threat to arrest the mayor of Kirkland came about after he was arrested by police. His vehicle had been impounded after he was found driving with a suspended license and expired vehicle-license tabs. An unloaded gun with ammunition nearby had been found on the seat of the car.[36] Although he was not a law enforcement officer, Myrland had claimed that he had the authority to form a group of private citizens to arrest felons in public office "as permitted by RCW 9A.16.020"[36] (the state statute governing lawful use of force).[37] On December 2, 2011, Myrland was sentenced to three years and four months in federal prison after pleading guilty in connection with the threats he made, including the threat to forcibly arrest the mayor of Kirkland, Washington.[34]
2011

In March 2011, a central figure in the sovereign citizen movement named Samuel Lynn Davis pleaded guilty to 31 counts of money laundering in Federal district court in Nevada. Davis was snared in a sting operation after he agreed to launder more than $1.29 million in what he believed to be illicit funds. Davis accepted $73,782 fees to launder the money, not realizing he was dealing with Federal law enforcement agents.[38] In October 2011, Davis was sentenced to four years and nine months in Federal prison, and was ordered to pay over $95,000 in restitution.[39][40] As of late July 2012, Davis was classified as a fugitive, having failed to surrender to authorities to begin his prison sentence in June 2012.[41] On August 7, 2012, Davis was arrested by sheriff's deputies in White Earth, North Dakota.[42]

In September 2011, Edward and Elaine Brown, serving long federal prison sentences for various crimes, were identified by the Federal Bureau of Investigation as being members of the sovereign citizen movement.[43]

On November 4, 2011, a federal jury in Montgomery, Alabama found Monty Ervin guilty of conspiracy to defraud the United States and tax evasion. His wife Patricia Ervin was also found guilty of various related charges. According to a news release by the U.S. Department of Justice, Ervin and his wife had acquired hundreds of investment properties over a ten-year period, had received more than $9 million in rental income, but had paid nothing in federal income taxes. The Ervins reportedly claimed that they were not United States citizens, that they were “sovereigns,” and that they did not consider themselves subject to federal or state law. Ervin and his wife had also filed documents in probate court attempting to renounce their U.S. citizenship. In one filing, Ervin declared himself to be the governor of Alabama in its “original jurisdiction.”[44] On May 29, 2012, Monty Ervin was sentenced to ten years in prison, and Patricia Ervin was sentenced to five years of probation, with the condition that she spend 40 consecutive weekends in jail.[45]

In December 2011, Shawn Talbot Rice was arrested at his home at Seligman, Arizona, after a ten-hour standoff with FBI agents and other law enforcement personnel.[46] On July 24, 2012, Rice was found guilty in federal court in Nevada in connection with the same money-laundering scheme that resulted in the conviction of Samuel Lynn Davis. The guilty verdicts came on one count of conspiracy to commit money laundering, thirteen counts of money laundering, and four counts of failure to appear in court in connection with time that Rice spent as a fugitive. Rice, who had also falsely claimed to be a lawyer and a rabbi, was described as "a leader in the anti-government 'sovereign citizens' movement."[41] During the trial, Rice tried to argue that the presiding federal judge had no authority to render a judgment against Rice.[47] On March 20, 2013, Rice was sentenced to 8 years and 2 months in prison, and was ordered to forfeit over $1.29 million.[48]

That list starts in 2010, but this crap goes back into the 1980's I'm sure.

The folks I met were into things like passing fake checks, refusing to pay rent or mortgage payments and then confronting law enforcement with weapons and refusing to leave other peoples property. All in all a bunch of finer criminals you will never meet.

You won't find anything credible to substantiate the myth they spread, but you will find lots of info about them scamming people and trying to get off of well deserved arrests and charges using this scam.


More on topic, I'd say it's always best to cooperate with law enforcement since abuse by them is rare. I'm sure that's why most of us seem to have no issues with them throughout our lives. I know and have known people who are constantly having trouble and complaining about cops, but they cause it themselves.

If we run into a "Bad Cop", then it's time to take action but not in normal day to day stuff. Only a fool would want to live in a society without law enforcement IMO, but it does need to be policed itself I agree. In any group there will be bad apples, but most of the crop are just doing their jobs and keeping society civil and safe.