How many wives does Jesus allow?

Part one.

How many wives does Jesus allow?

One or many?

The O.T. that Jesus often quoted allows many wives.

The N. T does not speak against polygamy from what I can see but does promote slavery and tradition says that that would be sex out of marriage. Unless you see Christian slave owners acting differently than the usual slave owner.

How many wives does you particular branch of Christianity or Catholicism and Jesus allow?

Muslims also have a great respect for Jesus and they allow many wives. Should they?

I know that most will say one wife is the ideal. That does not explain why scriptures support the notion of more than one, --- so I would like to hear your opinion as to ----- why not many wives?

If women are to be equal, should they be allowed as many husbands as the men are allowed in wives?

Just so you know, I have only the one wife and do not think I would want more than one,--- but in the Muslin sense, --- would partially accept one, as a duty to her and the tribe, so to speak, --- and would not likely have a real husband type of relation (sexual), with her.

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Part two.

Along with marriage often time comes divorce.

Jesus basically had a no divorce policy. Let no man put asunder.

Even as he acknowledged that Moses had changed the law thanks to the hard hearts of men.

I see that as an anti-love policy and since more than 60% of Christians divorce, most Christians seem to agree.

Do you?

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

The fact that Jesus disagreed with the Old Testament on divorce shows there is no reason to think he agreed with the Old Testament on polygamy.

His view on the one issue can count as his view on the other.
He quotes Genesis as giving the principle that a man should stay with his wife.
That is as much an argument against polygamy as it is an argument against divorce.
He would explain Old Testament polygamy in the same way that he explains Old Testament divorce; he would surely regard it as a symptom of men's "hardness of heart", in that the practice of divorce and the practice of polygamy were both concessions to the patriarchal society of Old Testament Israel.

The world population is about 50% women.... if one man has multiple women, there going to be some men without wives....

I'm not into sharing... women should not have to either.

DISRAELI
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

The fact that Jesus disagreed with the Old Testament on divorce shows there is no reason to think he agreed with the Old Testament on polygamy.

His view on the one issue can count as his view on the other.
He quotes Genesis as giving the principle that a man should stay with his wife.
That is as much an argument against polygamy as it is an argument against divorce.
He would explain Old Testament polygamy in the same way that he explains Old Testament divorce; he would surely regard it as a symptom of men's "hardness of heart", in that the practice of divorce and the practice of polygamy were both concessions to the patriarchal society of Old Testament Israel.

edit on 23-10-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

I do not remember the quote, you might, but it says that once God says something or something passes his lips it is forever. He will never retract or recant it. Scriptures also says that God does not change his mind.

How is it that his perfect justice can allow for concession just because of our hard hearts?

That precedent says that we could get him to give concessions on just about anything. Right?

Is his covenant and laws so loose that he will change them for man?

I see Jesus as explaining why the Jewish law was as it was, not accepting hard hearts as an excuse for God to change his law and mind.

------------------------------------

On the marriage issue.

In the Abraham story, God allows fornication or extra marital sex to give Abraham a child. I prefer to think he offered a second wife as she and Abraham became as one also and she provided a son.

Do you see that as fornication or a second wife?

Does the fact that King David and others had many wives and God was not upset by that fact not indicate that he condones many wives?

Also, your good experience aside, on the issue of divorce, if a man or woman is beat twice a week by an uncivilized or out of control mate, would you advise to stay married when no reconciliation is possible?

Would you advise those to not seek a loving relationship and advise that they live in misery for the rest of their lives?

Regards
DL

luciddream
The world population is about 50% women.... if one man has multiple women, there going to be some men without wives....

I'm not into sharing... women should not have to either.

We are on the same page as I indicated above but this is not just about us my friend.

Are you a believer and if so, what does your Jesus preach and do you agree with him on both marriage and divorce?

If you are not a believer I would still like you to opine on his no divorce policy.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
How is it that his perfect justice can allow for concession just because of our hard hearts?

For the same reason that a teacher does not go into a class of five-year olds and try to explain Einstein's equations.
He understands what level they are at and gives them what they can cope with.
I see the Biblical God as a teacher, understanding what level his people are at and what they can manage.
Looking at the patriarchal society of ancient Israel, he sets out to change it gradually, so that the infant nation can get its head round what he wants from them.

The wording of Jesus is very clear; permission for divorce came from Moses, and it was not what God ultimately wanted from his people.
Little by little, bit by bit, he gets them up to university level in his own time.

Does the fact that King David and others had many wives and God was not upset by that fact not indicate that he condones many wives?

I've already suggested an answer to that. Condoning many wives was a concession to the "hardness of heart" of a patriarchal society.

As for divorce; in the social and economic conditions of ancient Israel, divorce meant a woman being thrown on the scrapheap with the prospect of begging or prostitution as the likely means of support. That is why, under those conditions, Jesus has to regard divorce as a symptom of men's "hardness of heart". That's exactly what it was.

Kind of hard to know for sure without actually asking him.

I don't see that happening.

It's fairly clear in Christian theology that the Jewish people were notorious for taking gods words and twisting it to their own ends.

As for the marriage issue Jesus is clear the intention always was for one man one women, and never to divorce.

Even the key exemption for divorce being adultery is in only one gospel. (So clearly being able to divorce was not an emphasis of Jesus teaching )

I wouldn't even go so far as saying polygamy is a direct sin, just that it's not ideal.

Christians by nt standards are not under Jewish laws, but just because we are not under them does not mean those things where bad ideas.

Things like the sabbath rules, Christians don't have to follow them, but they very well could based on what there own individual faith allows. A concept that to none Christians is hard to grasp, even to some Christians.

Frankly the one wife thing could easily fall under that, but historical societal precedent took hold over actual theological argument.

But I'll put it this way to end it, render on to ceaser. Words directly from Jesus mouth that say what to do in regards to the state.

In America polygamy is a crime, Christians are to honor the law of the land they are in. So by default to American Christians it would be a sin.

benrl
It's fairly clear in Christian theology that the Jewish people were notorious for taking gods words and twisting it to their own ends.

As for the marriage issue Jesus is clear the intention always was for one man one women, and never to divorce.

Even the key exemption for divorce being adultery is in only one gospel. (So clearly being able to divorce was not an emphasis of Jesus teaching )

I wouldn't even go so far as saying polygamy is a direct sin, just that it's not ideal.

Christians by nt standards are not under Jewish laws, but just because we are not under them does not mean those things where bad ideas.

Things like the sabbath rules, Christians don't have to follow them, but they very well could based on what there own individual faith allows. A concept that to none Christians is hard to grasp, even to some Christians.

Frankly the one wife thing could easily fall under that, but historical societal precedent took hold over actual theological argument.

But I'll put it this way to end it, render on to ceaser. Words directly from Jesus mouth that say what to do in regards to the state.

In America polygamy is a crime, Christians are to honor the law of the land they are in. So by default to American Christians it would be a sin.

I am not questioning Caesar's policies but but Jesus' but it is good for women to give to Caesar here as he allows equality whereas Christian law does not.



In the Abraham story, God allows fornication or extra marital sex to give Abraham a child. I prefer to think he offered a second wife as she and Abraham became as one also and she provided a son.

Do you see that as fornication or a second wife?

Does the fact that King David and others had many wives and God was not upset by that fact not indicate that he condones many wives?

Also, your good experience aside, on the issue of divorce, if a man or woman is beat twice a week by an uncivilized or out of control mate, would you advise to stay married when no reconciliation is possible?

Would you advise those to not seek a loving relationship and advise that they live in misery for the rest of their lives?

Regards
DL

DISRAELI

Greatest I am
How is it that his perfect justice can allow for concession just because of our hard hearts?

For the same reason that a teacher does not go into a class of five-year olds and try to explain Einstein's equations.
He understands what level they are at and gives them what they can cope with.
I see the Biblical God as a teacher, understanding what level his people are at and what they can manage.
Looking at the patriarchal society of ancient Israel, he sets out to change it gradually, so that the infant nation can get its head round what he wants from them.

The wording of Jesus is very clear; permission for divorce came from Moses, and it was not what God ultimately wanted from his people.
Little by little, bit by bit, he gets them up to university level in his own time.

Does the fact that King David and others had many wives and God was not upset by that fact not indicate that he condones many wives?

I've already suggested an answer to that. Condoning many wives was a concession to the "hardness of heart" of a patriarchal society.

As for divorce; in the social and economic conditions of ancient Israel, divorce meant a woman being thrown on the scrapheap with the prospect of begging or prostitution as the likely means of support. That is why, under those conditions, Jesus has to regard divorce as a symptom of men's "hardness of heart". That's exactly what it was.

edit on 23-10-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

So you think ancient women were denied equality for their own good. LOL.

Pfft. You forget that many women held the wealth.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
So you think ancient women were denied equality for their own good. LOL.
Pfft. You forget that many women held the wealth.

You need to understand the economic realities of the ancient world.
We are not talking about the Rome of, say, the Augustine period.
We are talking about the Israel of several centuries earlier.
In those days, there were no feminists demanding to be rendered homeless and income-less for the sake of "equality".
In that period, the practice of divorce was the exercise of masculine power, just as the practice of polygamy has always been.
Had any feminists been existing at the time, they would have demanded legal restraints on both practices.

P.S. The clue is in the fact that Moses is allowing men to divorce their wives, not the other way round.
In the law of Moses, "Permission to divorce" is about giving men what they want, not about giving women what they want.
That is why it is called a patriarchal society.

reply to post by Greatest I am


I'm interested in hearing a 'current' explanation of the OP questions (mentioned faiths - relevant).

The natural mouthpieces would be those that have the amorphous 'personal relationship' status (self-conferred)...

Å99

reply to post by Greatest I am

How many wives does Jesus allow?

"In reply he said: 'Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.” - Matthew 19:4-6.

Seems pretty clear to me that it is one man and one woman. Jesus of course was using the first marriage as an example, the one that God performed, when uniting Adam with Eve. It was no doubt this same toleration for man's hardheadedness that he allowed polygamy. But to be sure it was not allowed in the Christian congregation: "The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife." (1 Timothy 3:2).

Jesus basically had a no divorce policy. Let no man put asunder.

This is not true. Notice what Jesus himself said to see if what you said holds up: "I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality,and marries another commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:9).

So sexual immorality is clearly a valid reason for a divorce that is acceptable to God. He surely did not have a "no divorce policy."

reply to post by Greatest I am


Actually, it wasn't that the OT allowed it, it was just that it was cultural then. Nowhere does it say God was pleased or endorsed multiple marriages.

Jesus quotes Adam and Eve, He doesn't refer to any other marriages in the OT. He says "a man shall leave his parents and cleave unto his wife, and they become one flesh". So I would think Jesus felt one man and one woman was enough. As a wife was given to Adam as a helpmeet, then why would Adam need more than that? Does man need 50 wives to help?

David was punished for taking Bathsheba. His friend the prophet Nathan posed to him a question like this..."what would you do if a man stole another man's sheep and killed him". David said "I would have him killed", to which Nathan replies "It's you who did it"....so we see that God was not pleased with David. After that, David's son raped his half-sister, her other full brother decided to get revenge for it, both boys ended up dying, and David's next child only lived a short time. So, three sons lost over one bad action.

Then his grandsons lost the kingdom because of infighting.

So you see, if he had just stuck with Michal, his first wife, then all of this probably would have never happened.

reply to post by Greatest I am

I see Jesus as explaining why the Jewish law was as it was, not accepting hard hearts as an excuse for God to change his law and mind.

On your last thread you seemed to be saying that religion was no better than so many fairy tales and could be replaced with a new set to revise religion.
Now you seem to be a true believer that God wrote the Old Testament and that Jesus was a real historical person.

When Jesus said "Moses", I'm pretty sure that he was only referring to the Jewish Law that could have been just made up without there ever actually being a real person, Moses.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Why would they make up a name for a set of laws? That's kind of like calling the Constitution as Jefferson.

"As the Jefferson says"..."You are violating my Jefferson rights"...

akushla99
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I'm interested in hearing a 'current' explanation of the OP questions (mentioned faiths - relevant).

The natural mouthpieces would be those that have the amorphous 'personal relationship' status (self-conferred)...

Å99

Seems 'we' are incommunicado, so far...communication circuits down (?)...I will call back later when the 'link' may be up...

Å99

"Does Jesus ALLOW"? I dont think he ever was in a position to "allow" anyone to do anything.

If there is a list of things Jesus "allows or doesnt allow"...I like to see it in print.

Perhaps you meant...."from His lifetime of studying Scripture...basically Hebrew scripture...to what was Jesus in support of"?

The "does Jesus ALLOW"...is confusing. Explain please? Thank you.

reply to post by Greatest I am


Hello,

"Greatest I am"

I pray that you are not in real life as you are on this online web forum,

If you are, Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy,

Do you realize all your harsh criticisms and judgments are against the One who keeps your soul in your flesh?

Do you realize the One whom you constantly put down and talk negatively about is the very One who breathes into your flesh 24/7, who opens your eyes after you sleep, who keeps your body animated and alive on this earth, for the time being?

Do you realize you will give account of every word ever spoken, even ever thought considered, unto the One whom you so despise?

God, have mercy on this man, forgive him his ignorance, please in Jesus Name open this mans eyes and save this poor man,

Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy,

in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

God bless and forgive you and your family,

Amen