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KSigMason
For the non-Mason groups you named, I could care less because they are irrelevant to Freemasonry. As to the Supreme Council I could talk with a good friend who sits on the Supreme Council as well as a new acquaintance I made at this year's Masonic Week in Reston, VA.
None of these make a group Masonic or "under their umbrella".
It's a rite or ritual, but that doesn't make it a sacrament.
Well, you're entitled to his opinion, but he is very learned in Templary.
What is that about the Scottish baker that you can clear up for me.
But the truth of the matter is the Knights Templars far from died off but took their riches and influence and Masonic knowledge and joined other organizations, perhaps assumed new identities, as well.
Like your baker being a key factor in the "resurrection" of the Knights Templars remembrance throughout both Scottish Rite and York Rite.
Sure it does, because they will recruit from current members of Scottish and York Rite Freemason organizations, plus they use a lot of the same symbolism and study a lot of similar stuff. Bloods and Crypts. Republican and Democrat.
What is your definition of a sacrament, dear sir?
You are part of a secret society.
For all it's openness, it's roots and it's connections are all secret.
It is because everything in this world that has an organization that is as massive as say, Freemasonry, gets sabotaged and corrupted in some way, top to bottom, that's the age we are transitioning from.
Wasn't some Scottish Baker though or Ramsay that are the reason the reverberations of the Knights Templars legacy is felt today in both Scottish Rite and York Rite.
KSigMason
I've even founded groups myself, but that doesn't make them relevant
Since the new world order
Played upon our fears
Spreading accusations
Of radical ideas
The brotherhood of wisdom
Strength and dignity
Its rituals and secrets
Remain a mystery
Beneath an ever watchful eye
The angels of the temple fly
Turn the key
Walk through the gate
The great ascent
To reach a higher state
A rite of passage
The final stage
A sacred home
Unlock the door
And lay the corner stone
A rite of passage
Men of wealth and power
Influence and fame
Philosophers and leaders
All members of the trade
Bound by oath and honor
Like the rose and cross
An enigmatic union
Of esoteric thought
Beneath an ever watchful eye
The angels of the temple fly
Turn the key
Walk through the gate
The great ascent
To reach a higher state
A rite of passage
The final stage
A sacred home
Unlock the door
And lay the corner stone
A rite of passage
Turn the key
Walk through the gate
The great ascent
To reach a higher state
A rite of passage
The seven stars
The rising sun
A perfect world
Where new life has begun
A rite of passage
KSigMason
reply to post by 112233
Well, none of the groups you named here predates Craft Masonry, at least if we look at earliest dates of Freemasonry (like the Regius Poem). It is irrelevant that Freemasons may be members in other organizations; I'm a member of many other groups outside of Freemasonry. I've even founded groups myself, but that doesn't make them relevant or connected to Freemasonry.
LOL...there is so much fail here. 1) I don't deny that the Templars hid their riches and disappeared into the landscape, that is all too obvious. 2) Masonic knowledge? Who says that the knights had Masonic knowledge?
Like your baker being a key factor in the "resurrection" of the Knights Templars remembrance throughout both Scottish Rite and York Rite.
Sure it does, because they will recruit from current members of Scottish and York Rite Freemason organizations, plus they use a lot of the same symbolism and study a lot of similar stuff. Bloods and Crypts. Republican and Democrat.
What is your definition of a sacrament, dear sir?
So secret that people know where and when we meet. So secret our books are published in public libraries. Yes, yes, we're such a "secret society". LOL
Well that's the problem with history isn't it.
This is an assumption and conjecture.
And who is the reason?edit on 8-4-2014 by KSigMason because: (no reason given)
Groups you are part of outside of Freemasonry are connected if they use the same symbolism in all it's forms, study the same subjects, use similar rituals, attire, symbolic setting, and organization.
Again, since the groups I named are very similar in these respects it makes them connected to Freemasonry, especially in the sense that they recruit from them.
The former is obvious in it's connections, the latter is similar in much the same way as the Shriners to Freemasonry.
The Templars are believed to have contacted the Dionysiac Architects and brought their symbols and doctrines into medieval Europe.
Like the checkerboard floor.
Great another connection to a group I mentioned earlier called the Order of Malta. Yes the Knights of St. John are basically the Order of Malta today, it's a shared history.
Basically what your rituals are. That's the only thing that keeps it from being a religion? That's basically what those RITuals are. A rite and an observance. A rite in the Scottish Rite, a rite in Blue Lodge.
I know that yall's roots are spread through many different Mystery Schools from Egyptian, Jewish, Indian, Christian to name a few.
No, you believe this. No one knows the true roots of Freemasonry.
The more likely fact that those Knights had long merged with Masonic Orders a long ace time before that "baker" made that speech.
There are many theories as to the Masonic-Templar connection, but Stephen Dafoe does a great job debunking many of the theories in his book "The Compasses and the Cross".
KSigMasonOne could argue about the history of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta and that of the medieval Order of Malta.
]Except our rituals are not the same and using similar symbols doesn't connect us; symbols are arbitrary and ambiguous. Also, our organization is not same. Having a hierarchy doesn't mean we're connected.
You seem to be thinking that correlation is causation.
Do you know the history of the Shriners?
There are a lot of theories about the Templars. Without information, we're left to our imagination and various theories have been exaggerated and accepted as fact.
Like the checkerboard floor.
Now do you understand the motivation behind his speech? Sure he spoke these words, but what evidence did he have? What was his reason? He was trying to sell Freemasonry to the French and spread Freemasonry beyond the borders of England. French noblemen were not going to join a group about laborers so he tied it back to the legends of knights which would attract the attention of aristocrats.
Your missing so much here.
No, you believe this. No one knows the true roots of Freemasonry.
There are many theories as to the Masonic-Templar connection, but Stephen Dafoe does a great job debunking many of the theories in his book "The Compasses and the Cross".
Even the modern days Knights Templar's full title is The United Religious, Military and Masonic Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes and Malta.
You're right, the Knights Templar went into the Crusades learned as much as they could from the various Mystery Schools there and spread that through there joining to the Scottish Rite and the York Rite.
Hence they are honored in the York Rite as the highest degree, Knight Templar.
There are many connections between all the secret societies I have mentioned in a variety of ways.
The correlation has concern because there is something else behind the scenes. The church is in charge, traditionally or at least the Pope, of the Order of Malta as well as the Knights Templar. But they are just another face.
The Knights Templar were attacked by the Inquisition because they were practicing witchcraft and sorcery.
There is probably a lot of truth to that seeing as how, like the Order of the Golden Dawn was formed by Freemasons whose members were the founders of Wicca and Thelema and founders of arguably the two most popular Tarot decks the Thoth and the Rider-Waite deck. It's about magic they just didn't sell it like that to the Scottish Rite and York Rite.
I'm not saying that doesn't have truth to it, but I'm also saying it was known the Knights Templar merged with Freemasonry and ironically enough were also now the Order of Malta in a way. So there is a lot of truth to the connection to past and present secret societies, just another line though.
Please explain.
No, but I know a lot of organizations that officially predate yall that used a lot of your symbolism before yall. As well as the shofar, the sword, masonic square and compass, star of David, checkerboard floor and so much more that predate English Craft Freemasonry. Like the Dionysiac Architects and who introduced their symbolism, or where they got it from.
Again, I don't trust a book that attributes the Knights Templar being honored to a baker who made a speech to gain the appeal of French aristocrats.
Rem ( "to weep"), also Rem-Rem, Remi, or Remi the Weeper, who lives in Rem-Rem, the realm of weeping[2] is a fish god in Egyptian mythology who fertilizes the land with his tears,[3] producing both vegetation and the reptiles.[4] He is assumed to be the personification of Ra's tears.[1]
The Cyrillic letter Pe was derived from the Greek letter Pi (Π π).
The name of Pe in the Early Cyrillic alphabet was покои (pokoi), meaning "peaceful state"
"Pi", a song by Hard 'n Phirm from Horses and Grasses
Horses and Grasses is the first album of the comedy band Hard 'n Phirm. It was released in 2005 to acclaim, especially for the fourth track "Pi" and for their bluegrass Radiohead medley titled "Rodeohead".
Moose Lodge – 2:04
Pneumatica (Part I) – 0:41
The pneumatics ("spiritual", from Greek πνεῦμα, "spirit") were, in Gnosticism, the highest order of humans, the other two orders being psychics and hylics. A pneumatic saw itself as escaping the doom of the material world via the transcendent knowledge of Sophia's Divine Spark within the soul.
She Named the Pony Jesus – 5:05
El Corazón – 3:46
Corazón is Spanish and Galician for heart.
Corazón (volcano), a volcano in Ecuador
Corazón (1947 film), a 1947 Argentine film
"Corazón" (song), a 1997 song by Ricky Martin
Corazón (Ednita Nazario album), 1999
Corazón (Fonseca album), 2005
Corazón (Santana album), 2014
"Corazon", a song by Bishop Allen, 2007
"Corazón" is a brand of Tequila
Corazon is used in Spanish to mean darling.
"Corazón", a song by Carole King
viva (interj.)
1640s, from Italian viva "(long) live, may he (or she) live," third person singular present subjunctive of vivere "to live," from Latin vivere "to live" (see vital).
livelong (adj.)
also live-long, c.1400, lefe longe (day), from leve, lief "dear" (see lief), used here as an emotional intensive + long (adj).
Reem (given name), Arabic name given to females, which means a baby deer or gazelle
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try
But that was just a dream
Try, cry, why try
That was just a dream
Just a dream
Just a dream, dream
Out where the river broke
The bloodwood and the desert oak
Holden wrecks and boiling diesels
Steam in forty five degrees
The time has come
To say fair's fair
To pay the rent
To pay our share
The time has come
A fact's a fact
It belongs to them
Let's give it back
How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning
How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning
Four wheels scare the cockatoos
From Kintore East to Yuendemu
The western desert lives and breathes
In forty five degrees
The 45th parallel north is often called the halfway point between the Equator and the North Pole, but the true halfway point is actually 16.2 kilometres (10.1 mi) north of the 45th parallel because the Earth is oblate, that is, it bulges at the equator and is flattened at the poles.[1]
A type of gramophone record classified by its rotational speed of 45 revolutions per minute (rpm)
In years of marriage, the sapphire wedding anniversary.
Repeated continuously in the 1997 song "Brimful of Asha" by Cornershop
Asha is the primordial dragon, creator of the world of Ashan, sister of Urgash and mother of the six elemental dragons: Elrath, Malassa, Sylanna, Arkath, Ylath and Shalassa.
While she is well-known as the "Dragon of Order", Asha appears in many different forms. Asha and Urgash fought against each other in the Genesis, during which Asha banished Urgash into the heart of her world. However, she was wounded in that battle, and hid in the moon in order to heal herself.
Asha renders the fate of all mortal beings—she spins forth their destiny upon their birth, measures it throughout their time in the physical world, and then embraces their life force upon death. Asha is neutral; she shows favor to neither good nor evil men. She does not bless any race above another. Angels, Faceless, Elves, Dwarves, Humans and Nagas, all stand before her in equal measure. She does, however, hold her twin brother, the Dragon of Chaos, in eternal disdain and is opposed to the principles that drive both him and the demons, the beings he created to oppose her own.
Today, Asha is worshipped by the Blind Brothers, Silent Sisters, White Weavers, Dragon Knights and Necromancers, in different forms and aspects. Asha herself rests in the moon and doesn't really know what happens on her beloved world. Every creature, except the demons and (mainly) the wizards of the Silver League, respect the worshiping of the Dragon of Order, except her aspect as Spider goddess.
The Moon is in fact the cocoon she wove around herself. It is an image of the cosmic egg, a means to measure time, the final resting place of the dragons and the gate to the Underworld (where all souls come from and where all they go back after death).
choppin
v. when a car has rims that continue to spin after the car has stopped(spinners). When the rims are spinning at a high velocity they are considered to be choppin
Hoppin' John is a peas and rice dish served in the Southern United States. It is made with black-eyed peas (or field peas) and rice, chopped onion, sliced bacon, and seasoned with a bit of salt.[1]
A. Sferic Waves
B. ----- (Classified)
C. Inside the Head of John Peel
D. Max Q
In Hindu culture, the peacock is the mount of the lord Karthikeya, the god of war. A demon king, Surapadman, was split into two by Karthikeya and the merciful lord converted the two parts as an integral part of himself, one becoming a peacock (his mount) and another a rooster adorning his flag. The peacock displays the divine shape of Omkara when it spreads its magnificent plumes into a full-blown circular form.[12]
Even though the Peafowl is native to India, in Babylonia and Persia the Peacock is seen as a guardian to royalty, and is often seen in engravings upon the thrones of royalty. The monarchy in Iran is referred to as the Peacock Throne. Melek Taus (ملك طاووس—Kurdish Tawûsê Melek), the "Peacock Angel", is the Yazidi name for the central figure of their faith. The Yazidi consider Tawûsê Melek an emanation of God and a benevolent angel who has redeemed himself from his fall and has become a demiurge who created the cosmos from the Cosmic egg. After he repented, he wept for 7,000 years, his tears filling seven jars, which then quenched the fires of hell. In art and sculpture, Tawûsê Melek is depicted as a peacock. However, peacocks are not native to the lands where Tawûsê Melek is worshipped.[citation needed]
Murugan or Kartikeya (also called Subramanya, Subramani, Muruga, Karthikeyan, Shanmughan and Shanmukha) is the Hindu god of war, victory, wisdom and love. He is Commander of the gods.
To free Io, Zeus had Argus slain by Hermes. Hermes, disguised as a shepherd, first put all of Argus's eyes asleep with spoken charms, then slew him by hitting him with a stone, the first stain of bloodshed among the new generation of gods.[8]
In early times, peas were grown mostly for their dry seeds.[8] From plants growing wild in the Mediterranean basin, constant selection since the Neolithic dawn of agriculture[9] improved their yield. In the early 3rd century BC Theophrastus mentions peas among the pulses that are sown late in the winter because of their tenderness.[10] In the first century AD Columella mentions them in De re rustica, and Roman legionaries still gathered wild pisi from the sandy soils of Numidia and Palestine, to supplement their rations.
In the Middle Ages, field peas are constantly mentioned, as they were the staple that kept famine at bay, as Charles the Good, count of Flanders noted explicitly in 1124.[11]
In the morning, the guest tells her hosts that she endured a sleepless night, kept awake by something hard in the bed; which she is certain has bruised her. The prince rejoices. Only a real princess would have the sensitivity to feel a pea through such a quantity of bedding.
1944 American comedy film directed by David Butler and starring Bob Hope and Virginia Mayo.[1] Based on a story by Sy Bartlett
A pirate captain known as the Hook (Victor McLaglen) buries his treasure on an island and kills the map maker so no one else will find it. He and his cut-throat crew go after the Mary Ann, a ship on which Princess Margaret (Virginia Mayo) is running away from her father, the King (Robert Warwick), so she can marry a commoner.
originally posted by: KSigMason
reply to post by 112233
Except there is no proof that Freemasonry is connected to the Order of St. John or any chivalric order. Like I said, he most likely gave the speech to sell Freemasonry to the French aristocracy.
Even the modern days Knights Templar's full title is The United Religious, Military and Masonic Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes and Malta.
Yes, that is the name the Masonic order uses, but the names are used in commemoration only.
I never said this so don't put words in my mouth. There are a variety of theories, but most of the mare easily debunked and there is no proof that the medieval Templars brought anything to the Templars. Now, I would love to see some solid evidence that ties us to the Knights Templar, but it doesn't exist.
You really should do more research into the Templar Order found in the York Rite.
Then let's see all of these connections.
Except the Masonic orders dont rely upon Papal authority.
LMAO! You really need to do more research. King Phillip had the Templars charged with heresy and many other trumped-up charges, most of which were identical to the charges which had previously been leveled by Phillip's agents against Pope Boniface VIII. By making the charges religious in nature, he wouldn't be seen as a greedy tyrant, but as a servant of God. You should also realize that the Pope secretly absolved the Templars (research the Chinon Parchment).
ROFL!!! You are just proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Context buddy, context.
Okay, I'm going to speak slowly for you. There is no proof that the Templars merged, affiliated with, or reformed the Masonic order. You say that it is known, but that's wrong; it is only believed or theorized.
Rites: Dramatic, planned sets of activities that bring together aspects of an organization’s culture in a single event. Examples are Rites of passage, conflict resolution rites, enhancement or advancement rites, and so on.
Rituals: Repeated communication performances that communicate a particular value or role definition. There are a variety of types of rituals: religious rituals, social rituals (parties or grabbing a beer after work with the co-workers on a set day of the week), personal rituals (preparation rituals, morning rituals, etc), and task rituals (weekly staff meetings).
Rituals are not just religious ceremonies.
No, but I know a lot of organizations that officially predate yall that used a lot of your symbolism before yall. As well as the shofar, the sword, masonic square and compass, star of David, checkerboard floor and so much more that predate English Craft Freemasonry. Like the Dionysiac Architects and who introduced their symbolism, or where they got it from.
So you mean you are looking for information that confirms your beliefs or what you think is true, not necessarily what is true in reality? Interesting.
As I've shown and I can just keep showing more proof of the lineage of the Order of St. John to modern day Order of Malta.
And you don't think that it's strange that the title honors both of the Vaticans chivalric orders/secret societies in the short and full title of that particular group?
Why honor the Knights Templar that you claim has no bearing or connection to Freemasonry?
An Order emphasizing the lessons of self-sacrifice and reverence. It is meant to rekindle the spirit of the medieval Knights Templar devotion and self-sacrifice to Christianity.
Except Knights Templar is the final order joined in York Rite after you've completed the Royal Arch degrees(Mcdonalds?), some jurisdictions require you to complete your Cryptic Degrees before you can join the Templars and you have to be Christian.
A lot of flag raising for a group that had no real effect on Freemasonry don't ya think?
Ya know what, I"ll do it for you but not right now, at least not as detailed as I'd like, but I've been pointing it out. But I'll get more detailed in another post. Sorry, about this one being so late, but I have other things on my plate.
At least I can quote that parchment to the Templars properties being turned over to the Templars sister organization the Order of St.John/ Malta.
So yall's rituals are neither dramatic, planned sets of activities that bring together aspects of an organizations culture in a single event.
No they are not religious ceremonies but you basically meet the requirements of your Rituals being religious ceremonies.
If two different religions had even just the symbolism I mentioned above it would raise the suspicion of a major connection between the two. This is no different.
I don't trust propaganda.