Being christian while rejecting important OT figures?

reply to post by Klassified

So Christianity is about the walk, not about the knowledge. It is about the experience, not about the theology. It is about the faith, not the "facts". In my opinion, the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity, was for the bible to become easily accessible to all.

That makes Christianity an "anything goes" kind of religion. One can reject Jesus' virgin birth, and the idea that he went up to heaven and still call themselves a "Christian".

reply to post by FlyersFan


You are fully entitled to your own beliefs, and I don't mean to point the finger at you by any means, but there are some glaring holes in your philosophy. If you discard the entire OT, you might as well discard the NT as well. The OT laid the foundation for the NT not only through the genealogy of King David (and consequently Christ), but through the prophecies which it outlined (that Christ fulfilled).

Secondly, if you don't even believe moses existed than you might as well reject Christianity outright, as it is said that Moses and Elijah appeared to the apostles alongside Jesus.

While I would say that we have some grounds to question the literal narrative of Adam and Eve, rejecting the existence of Moses does not appear to be compatible with Christianity. If Moses did not exist, then the Apostles were liars, and if they were liars, their testimony regarding Jesus cannot be trusted.

One must take in account that Jesus believed in the stories in the old testament, that or he was lying, he talked about Jonah being in the belly of the whale for 3 days for example. You may think it was a myth but apparently Jesus Didn't. Not that I believe everything written in the old testament.

But as far as being a christian, I do not think it is required that one believes everything that is written in the book.

reply to post by FreeMason

It says you are supposed to keep the doctrines sound . . .

That's in the New Testament, and is talking about new preachers coming along and teaching a different gospel than what the Apostles preached.

. . . no you don't HAVE to believe certain things equally, but the OT is a pretty big one.

That would have been important if you were a Judean resident, and you had Jews coming from Babylon telling you that they have the claim to the land and you have to go unless you subscribe to the books that they brought along with them as proof to their ownership of the land.

I'm almost certain if you can't see that the OT is complete and true then you must not have the Holy Spirit.

So it never actually says that, but you think it is true.
Did you ever consider that this may be just a teaching of the particular cult that you belong to?

The Holy Spirit is the key which unlocks the Bible in its entirety. Without it you may have parts but you can't seem to put the whole thing together.

That may be just a teaching peculiar to your local worship community.
Acts has a story about the Bereans who had it in their nature to go ahead and study the scripture to see if what the Apostles were telling them was true. In this case, the "Holy Spirit" would have been in the form of the Apostles. What they said was true, and the written word showed that they were not just making things up and saying that it was "scripture".

. . . the replacement commandments were the same as the former.

I doubt that the Holy Spirit showed you that, since there are two different versions of the 10 Commandments. What Moses wrote was what The Lord spoke to the congregation from the mountain top. Then after the Israelites sinned by worshiping the golden calf and subsequently Moses breaking the tablets, The Lord said something else to Moses that could be construed as a sort of dumbed-down 10 commandments that could be kept by sinners.

Just ## Epic. Dan Barker totally owned.

I can see why he was annoyed by you, since you have arguments that bring in points that are irrelevant to the issue.
His point is that you are treating these stories as if they were actual historical accounts. They aren't, they are just stories and none of those things ever actually happened.

reply to post by FreeMason

. . . the Bible does correctly calculate Pi.

Easy, since the Greek philosophers already figured that out before the Old Testament was written.
You seem to have this idea that there was this isolated community thousands of years BC who figured everything out themselves and wrote it all down as it happened, then miraculously preserved it all.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

STRAW MAN ... DEFLECTION ....
So you are incapable of addressing the topic??? AGAIN -

GET ON TOPIC AND ANSWER THE QUESTIONS IF YOU ARE CAPABLE.

Acknowledge that Christianity does NOT depend on belief in the Old Testament fairy tales.
The information was provided since page one.

Acknowledge that the Old Testament fairy tales have been DEBUNKED.

Acknowledge that Muhammad copied off the Christians and Jews. And since their information was wrong, Muhammad got it wrong also. It didn't come from God.

THAT IS THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD ... The OLD TESTAMENT and if Christians can be Christians without believing in the proven-false stories. You set the topic. How about you acknowledge the facts presented for the past five pages that the Old Testament is NOT a requirement of Christianity???

DeadSeraph
If you discard the entire OT, you might as well discard the NT as well.

1 - I never said I discard the 'ENTIRE' Old Testament. I said that large parts of it are debunked. And thats because its' true .. large parts have been shown to be FALSE. It's just that simple.
2 - The New Testament can stand on it's own. It has no need of the Old Testament parts that have been debunked.

if you don't even believe moses existed than you might as well reject Christianity outright,

I didn't say that Moses didn't exist. I said that the EXODUS of the Jews out of Egypt has been shown to be false. I said that Moses getting the 10 commandments from the hand of God has been shown to be false.

To continue to blindly believe in something that has been shown to be false is ignorant.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


STRAW MAN ... DEFLECTION ....

So you are incapable of addressing the topic??? AGAIN -

GET ON TOPIC AND ANSWER THE QUESTIONS IF YOU ARE CAPABLE.

Acknowledge that Christianity does NOT depend on belief in the Old Testament fairy tales.
The information was provided since page one.

Acknowledge that the Old Testament fairy tales have been DEBUNKED.

Acknowledge that Muhammad copied off the Christians and Jews. And since their information was wrong, Muhammad got it wrong also. It didn't come from God.

THAT IS THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD ... The OLD TESTAMENT and if Christians can be Christians without believing in the proven-false stories. You set the topic. How about you acknowledge the facts presented for the past five pages that the Old Testament is NOT a requirement of Christianity???

reply to post by DeadSeraph

. . . as it is said that Moses and Elijah appeared to the apostles alongside Jesus.

That story is in all three synoptic gospels.
Mark 9:4
And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
Matthew 17:3
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Luke 9:30
Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus.

There are notes inserted into the NT text that say " (He did not know what he was saying.)"
which may be a way of saying that Peter assumed that was the identity of the two men.
Jesus never verifies that Peter correctly identified them but tells him not to say anything about it until he is himself raised from the dead.

jmdewey60
reply to post by FreeMason

 

. . . the Bible does correctly calculate Pi.

Easy, since the Greek philosophers already figured that out before the Old Testament was written.
You seem to have this idea that there was this isolated community thousands of years BC who figured everything out themselves and wrote it all down as it happened, then miraculously preserved it all.

The Egyptians figured that out before the Greeks, that's not my point

My point is that Skeptics don't know what they are talking about and make themselves look like fools with such stupid claims as the "Bible doesn't correctly calculate pi". Look it up on skeptics annotated Bible...bunch of imbeciles there.

jmdewey60
reply to post by FreeMason

 

It says you are supposed to keep the doctrines sound . . .

That's in the New Testament, and is talking about new preachers coming along and teaching a different gospel than what the Apostles preached.

. . . no you don't HAVE to believe certain things equally, but the OT is a pretty big one.

That would have been important if you were a Judean resident, and you had Jews coming from Babylon telling you that they have the claim to the land and you have to go unless you subscribe to the books that they brought along with them as proof to their ownership of the land.

I'm almost certain if you can't see that the OT is complete and true then you must not have the Holy Spirit.

So it never actually says that, but you think it is true.
Did you ever consider that this may be just a teaching of the particular cult that you belong to?

The Holy Spirit is the key which unlocks the Bible in its entirety. Without it you may have parts but you can't seem to put the whole thing together.

That may be just a teaching peculiar to your local worship community.
Acts has a story about the Bereans who had it in their nature to go ahead and study the scripture to see if what the Apostles were telling them was true. In this case, the "Holy Spirit" would have been in the form of the Apostles. What they said was true, and the written word showed that they were not just making things up and saying that it was "scripture".

. . . the replacement commandments were the same as the former.

I doubt that the Holy Spirit showed you that, since there are two different versions of the 10 Commandments. What Moses wrote was what The Lord spoke to the congregation from the mountain top. Then after the Israelites sinned by worshiping the golden calf and subsequently Moses breaking the tablets, The Lord said something else to Moses that could be construed as a sort of dumbed-down 10 commandments that could be kept by sinners.

Just ## Epic. Dan Barker totally owned.

I can see why he was annoyed by you, since you have arguments that bring in points that are irrelevant to the issue.
His point is that you are treating these stories as if they were actual historical accounts. They aren't, they are just stories and none of those things ever actually happened.

edit on 13-10-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

No I learn things from the Holy Spirit, and rarely have gone to a "Worship Community". I've had doctrinal teachings of Catholicism come to me before through the Holy Spirit which I confirm in scripture then only later look up the source to find out the Catholics already gave it a name for instance the "Ministry of recnciliation".

As for the Ten Commandments, I highly suggest you actually read the quoted Chapters and not just throw in your doubts which are completely wrong.

To expound upon the teachings of the Holy Spirit it only affirms to me the strength of the Holy Spirit that I can receive "indoctrination" as you would call it, entirely from that source alone.

Especially read Exodus 34. Why was Dan Barker wrong? Because he was saying that the "second ten commandments" are really just the "first ten commandments" and there is a discrepancy between the two.

But there is evidence in Exodus 34 that proves they are a second set of ten commandments, not the first set which was rewritten also in Exodus 34.

In Exodus 34:1 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables o tone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou breakest."

After the "second ten commandments" which can be confused for what God is writing, God says this:

Exodus 34:27 "And the Lord said unto Moses, "Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a convenant with thee and with Israel."

There are no more words to write after Ex 34:27, God is referring to the "second ten commandments".

In passing He mentions He will write again the Ten Commandments, but then in the Chapter we see what Moses is writing of the second ten commandments.

Dan Barker couldn't seem to understand this.

Why can't you?

Accidental Double Post

The most consist evidence by the people who say they are Christians is all that is required is to "believe" you ARE a Christian.In this thread alone there are so many "Christian"beliefs that are diametrically opposed it should be no wonder the word Christian has no meaning.It's just a label to put on a warehouse full of boxes.

WAITING ON THE OP TO ADMIT THE FOLLOWING ....

Acknowledge that Christianity does NOT depend on belief in the Old Testament fairy tales.
The information was provided since page one.

Acknowledge that the Old Testament fairy tales have been DEBUNKED.

Let's see if he's capable ...

reply to post by FlyersFan

Let's see . . .

What I imagine about the OP is that he sees the OT as relevant in that the Muslim religion assumes that it is, so resents Christians who are in his eyes undermining his preferred religion.
Christians have an advantage in that it acknowledges the existence of an OT but is not necessarily dependent on it, though you do see the writer of Luke making a big deal of the genealogy as if it was a sort of Bible code, but then it is the "code" more than the historical "accuracy" that is of interest to that writer.

reply to post by FlyersFan

WAITING ON THE OP TO ADMIT THE FOLLOWING ....

Acknowledge that Christianity does NOT depend on belief in the Old Testament fairy tales.

Well, Christianity DOES depend on the OT.
- The idea of "original sin", as believed by the majority of Christians depends on Adams account in Genesis.
- The idea that Jesus was the "I AM", also depends on the OT. You yourself quoted the Bible on this.
- Christians DO rely on the OT to substantiate their claims.

[SNIP]


Mod Note: ALL MEMBERS: We expect civility and decorum within all topics - Please Review This Link.


.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


She's already provided you with stats showing that MOST CHRISTIANS do NOT believe the stories are true. They see them as metaphors/fables/myths.

You have just as narrow a view of Christianity as you do of Atheists and secular society. FAIL on both points. :shake my head:


[SNIP]


Mod Note: ALL MEMBERS: We expect civility and decorum within all topics - Please Review This Link.

sk0rpi0n
I'd like to see the more "proper" Christians come out and admit that Adam and Abraham don't matter.

Already provided that information on the first two pages of this thread.
As for the rest of your off topic insults ... ignoring them ....
Admit you were wrong yet again.