Being christian while rejecting important OT figures?

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

. . . say that God was just kidding about the OT.

No because I am not under the illusion that God wrote the Old Testament.
Some sort of priestcraft of Babylon wrote it, meaning the exiles from Judea who set up their rabbinical schools in Babylon to delve into the arts of writing seemingly archaic books of some mystical ancient legendary history of this idealized place where they supposedly came from.
I think that they kept an oral tradition amongst themselves of how they actually just made it up themselves, even though it is devised to seemingly come from older histories that they were transmitting in a compilation from old prophets and sages.

Jesus acknowledged the OT as truth, not pure allegory.

Obviously Jesus was using the Jonah story in an allegorical way.

BELIEVERpriest
Im just pointing out how hypocritical it is to acknowledge the NT miracles, yet dismiss the OT events.

Wrong.

The much of the Old Testament has been DEBUNKED. It simply didn't happen. It has been proven not have happened. However, the New Testament is a totally different story. It hasn't been debunked or disproven. It is much more recent and the history of the writings is verifiable whereas the Old Testament can't be verified.

If people believe the stories of the Old Testament, then they choose to believe something that is proven false. If people believe the stories of the New Testament, then they choose to believe something that hasn't been proven true and hasn't been proven false.

BIG DIFFERENCE. So you are dead wrong.

BELIEVERpriest
we just dont know science well enough to debunk any ancient claim.

Yes we do.

Science 101 ... the earth isn't 6000 years old, the population of the earth couldn't come from 3 pair of reproducing (related) couples from 5,000 years ago, and the animals of the earth couldn't populate from one pair of reproducing adults on a mountaintop in Turkey 5,000 years ago. It's IMPOSSIBLE. That kills Noahs Ark and Adam and Eve.

People can't live 10 minutes let alone 3 days in the belly of a whale. It's impossible. That kills Jonahs whale ride.

History 101 ... David didn't write all the Psalms. The same prayers can be found on Egyptian temples that predate David. So they were pagan prayers that got credited to David even though he didn't write them all.

Sociology 101 ... The 10 Commandments were in wide use before Moses time. He didn't get them from God on a mountaintop. He was a well educated upper-level man in Egypt and everyone already knew them. That kills the Moses getting the 10 Commandments story.

Archeology 101 ... previously given on this page. There is no evidence of any mass migration of Jews out of Egypt. No evidence in Egyptian records (which were well kept) and no evidence in the desert at all. There would have been bones of people and animals and pottery in the desert. It simply didn't happen. RELIGIOUS historians even agree. That Kills the whole exodus story.

FlyersFan

BELIEVERpriest
we just dont know science well enough to debunk any ancient claim.

Science 101

science 101 - a woman has to be impregnated by a man in order to give birth to a child. So where does science 101 leave Jesus?... At least in your belief system???

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

When are you going to acknowledge that you failed with this thread ... your agenda was obvious and it failed. When are you going to acknowledge that Christians have no need to believe in the Old Testament fantasies in order to be a Christian? It's been five pages and all you do is 'hit and run' pieces instead of acknowledging the facts presented.

Acknowledge that Christianity does NOT depend on belief in the Old Testament fairy tales.
The information was provided since page one.
Acknowledge that the Old Testament fairy tales have been DEBUNKED.
Acknowledge that Muhammad copied off the Christians and Jews. And since their information was wrong, Muhammad got it wrong also. It didn't come from God.

And just so we are clear about your real intentions ... let's make sure everyone sees it ...
You posted it here

sk0rpi0n
If Christians don't believe their own bible, then it means Christianity is on the verge of collapse.
GOOD.

hey ff, so what about science teaching that a woman can only give birth after impregation by a man? How was Jesus born according to you?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


When/if Jesus body is dug up and his DNA is found to be from two human parents, then his conception story will be debunked as well as his rising from the dead, and Christianity will be dead. Just as Moses has been debunked (by archeology facts) ... and Adam and Eve have been debunked (by Geology facts)... and Noahs Ark has been debunked (by DNA facts) ... and David writing the Psalms have been debunked (by archeology facts). All PROVEN false. Until the DNA/artifacts show up, Jesus story isn't debunked. It's open to believe or reject.

GET ON TOPIC AND ANSWER THE QUESTIONS IF YOU ARE CAPABLE.

Acknowledge that Christianity does NOT depend on belief in the Old Testament fairy tales.
The information was provided since page one.

Acknowledge that the Old Testament fairy tales have been DEBUNKED.

Acknowledge that Muhammad copied off the Christians and Jews. And since their information was wrong, Muhammad got it wrong also. It didn't come from God.

THAT IS THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD ... The OLD TESTAMENT and if Christians can be Christians without believing in the proven-false stories. You set the topic. How about you acknowledge the facts presented for the past five pages that the Old Testament is NOT a requirement of Christianity???

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Wow Skorpy, you really stirred up a hornets nest this time. I haven't even gotten to the second page, and the venom is unreal.

I'm going to answer your question differently(and calmly).

Putting aside all the "evidence" from both sides of the fence, because imo, neither can prove definitively the true history of the past 200 years, let alone 6000 years. All we can really know are probabilities, high and low.

So taking the bible at face value. It is my opinion that anyone can be a real Christian without ever having read the bible at all. And such was the case at one point in Christianity's beginnings. Written text was rare indeed in those days. Especially to carry around with you. So the "gospel" was carried by word of mouth. And living as a Christian was taught by those who understood its precepts to those who didn't. Christianity survived centuries this way.

So Christianity is about the walk, not about the knowledge. It is about the experience, not about the theology. It is about the faith, not the "facts". In my opinion, the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity, was for the bible to become easily accessible to all. At the same time, it would have been a travesty if it had not. So it was truly a double edged sword.

wildtimes
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Oh, FFS, Sk0rpion! Are you serious?!!!!

YES. People can be Christians without buying the OT. The Gideon's bible doesn't even INCLUDE the OT.

It's pretty much obvious that NONE of those stories are 'true.' Not Adam/Eve, not Noah, not Jonah, and on and on.
They are PARABLES. Are you seriously that gullible? Or just that stubborn, confrontational, and poor at cognition?

Hey, what do you think about Malala? She's on the Taliban hit-list again...for wanting people to be EDUCATED!!!

You never did tell me - what is your age? What made you 'convert' from Christianity to Islam? How can you ask the OP question in clear conscience???

Can you be a Muslim without putting a fatwa on Ahmadiyya ideas? Without preventing women from driving, being educated, without having slaves and marrying/raping little girls, and having a harem, and lopping off people's heads?

RIDICULOUS.
A new low for you.
Discuss.

edit on 10/9/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

If none of those stories are true, then how is Jesus the Messiah?

You cannot have the Holy Spirit and believe in only parts of the Bible, it's not possible. The OT foretells the coming of Christ, and Christ fulfills the OT.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Ill say it once more. The bible does not say the earth is 6000 years old, only that human civilization is 6000 years old. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, then (after a period of time) the earth became desolate and was restored in 6 days.

Archaeology is a bias science. Kinda like global warming.

Radioactive decay can accelarate depending on geomagnetic conditions, and plasma z-pinch on a planetary level can cause thermal electric transmutation of certain elements and compounds. Not all carbon precipitated at the same time. Thats why some carbon atoms appear more decayed than other carbon atoms.

The 10 commandments were created to establish ground rules for Israel as a nation. Those same ground rules apply to any moral nation. For example, any given constitutional republic requires freedom of speech, press, religion, and the right to bare arms. That doesnt mean it was copied from America or Sweden. The Levitical laws however show no similarity to the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Psalm 104 bares a mild resemblance to the Hymn of Aten, but after reading the two Psalms side by side, it becomes obvious that they were written (not copied) by two separate individuals with similar but different ideas in mind. If both individuals where writing about their own ideas regarding the Creator of the universe, I would hope to see some similarity between the two documents as they were found on the same planet.

You CAN NOT debunk the flood. Too much evidence exists to support massive rapid continental displacement, magnetic pole shifts, axial tilting, and total crustal displacement. Such an event would have involved massive electric discharges, tectonic subduction volcanic instability.

How do you explain the 2nd advent in Revelation if the flood never happened? Haggai 2 explicitly indicated that the world flood and the 2 advent are linked. Answer that.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Here's some evidence to counter your claims.

www.wayhome.org...

Think of Sodom's destruction as an electrically charged event. Similar to the flood, only on a smaller scale.

reply to post by FreeMason

If none of those stories are true, then how is Jesus the Messiah?

There already existed in Greek, the christ, which is parallel with "messiah".

You cannot have the Holy Spirit and believe in only parts of the Bible, it's not possible. The OT foretells the coming of Christ, and Christ fulfills the OT.

OK, does the Bible say that if you don't believe that everything in the Bible is true then you are damned?
You are supposed to believe in Jesus.
I don't see where it says that you have to believe in Abraham.
The Samaritans believed in Abraham and had a well named after him.
Jesus did not give the scribes and Pharisees any credit for believing in Abraham.
Only in retrospect can you see a connection between Jesus and the Old Testament, and even then, it is not a direct prediction but more like coincidences.
Or forced, like getting a donkey to ride on when entering Jerusalem.

reply to post by FreeMason

The OT foretells the coming of Christ, and Christ fulfills the OT.

And, it's NEVER occurred to you that the writers of the NT read the OT and put together a really handy follow up that seems to 'prove' the OT?

Really?

The Bible does not prove the Bible is true.
Sorry.

wildtimes
reply to post by FreeMason

 

The OT foretells the coming of Christ, and Christ fulfills the OT.

And, it's NEVER occurred to you that the writers of the NT read the OT and put together a really handy follow up that seems to 'prove' the OT?

Really?

The Bible does not prove the Bible is true.
Sorry.

How did the writers of the Old Testament put together the same message? I don't think it's impossible NT authors would read the OT and put it all together to be fulfilled, I think it's highly improbable considering it's some 300+prophecies and entirely referential to the OT.

But, how did the nearly 70+ authors of the OT spanning 2,000 years also put that message together to be found and interpreted in the NT in the first place?

Accident?

The Bible does prove the Bible is true, by the sheer volume, complexity, consistency, and logic of the entire work.

jmdewey60
reply to post by FreeMason

 

If none of those stories are true, then how is Jesus the Messiah?

There already existed in Greek, the christ, which is parallel with "messiah".

You cannot have the Holy Spirit and believe in only parts of the Bible, it's not possible. The OT foretells the coming of Christ, and Christ fulfills the OT.

OK, does the Bible say that if you don't believe that everything in the Bible is true then you are damned?
You are supposed to believe in Jesus.
I don't see where it says that you have to believe in Abraham.
The Samaritans believed in Abraham and had a well named after him.
Jesus did not give the scribes and Pharisees any credit for believing in Abraham.
Only in retrospect can you see a connection between Jesus and the Old Testament, and even then, it is not a direct prediction but more like coincidences.
Or forced, like getting a donkey to ride on when entering Jerusalem.

edit on 12-10-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

It says you are supposed to keep the doctrines sound, no you don't HAVE to believe certain things equally, but the OT is a pretty big one. I'm almost certain if you can't see that the OT is complete and true then you must not have the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the key which unlocks the Bible in its entirety. Without it you may have parts but you can't seem to put the whole thing together.

It reminds me of when I was debating Dan Barker (yes Dan Barker HIMSELF!) who said that in Exodus there are two different "10 commandments" so which one is real?

I remember it vividly, when the Holy Spirit showed me the verses as they were written, which clearly showed there were laws written on wood, and the Ten Commandments on Stone, the ones on wood were written by Moses's hand but the stone tablets by God Himself through Moses. (all this is from memory so bare with any slight deviations), the replacement commandments were the same as the former.

I clearly showed to Dan Barker of "Freedom From Religion" that he was wrong, and the Scripture was True in that one aspect.

His response?

I was a dumb faith head...

I wonder if I still have his emails?

I asked you not to email me again. We are done. You are avoiding the
specific issues, you have no reasonable answers.

Do not email me again. I have better things to do with my time than
argue with a superstitious faithhead.

db

On Jun 8, 2009, at 12:11 AM, wrote:

> You want to believe reason works when it only works in a Christian
> world sir. Remember that. The Vikings were every bit as reasonable
> as you, same with the Japanese and yes even Nazis. Even Christians.
> We are all reasonable we just don't come to the same conclusions
> about life but you hardly have a basis to say what is evil or
> reprehensible especially in the power of evolution where survival of
> the fittest is law and you can't see the hypocrisy of your logic.
>
>
>
> On Jun 7, 2009, at 6:13 PM, Dan Barker wrote:
>
>> I think we are done here . Reading the bible, it is very clear that
>> it is discrepant. Your other comments about Nazis are completely
>> beyond the pale of civilized dialogue. Please do not email me again.
>>
>>
>> On Jun 7, 2009, at 6:48 PM, wrote:
>>
>>> A search on yahoo and the top listing is a PDF that explains what
>>> I was saying perfectly. What is written on stone in Exodus 34 and
>>> what is called by Christians the Ten Commandments are different
>>> things. Are you saying the Hebrew explanation that Exodus 34 is
>>> the "second ten commandments" one of six sets of laws is
>>> incorrect? A Christian would see it as confusion but not as error.
>>> When talking about THE ten commandments it's that law given in
>>> Exodus 20 and Deut 5. When concerning the law of ritual that is
>>> Exodus 34. Where is the discrepancy?

Just ## Epic. Dan Barker totally owned.

Some more goodies I pointed out to Dan Barker, my favorite is that the Bible does correctly calculate Pi.

People who think that Pi is wrong in the Bible are just doing the math wrong themselves.

Also forgive my abrupt writing but I write from a phone. I do listen
> to your shows on Sundays after church as a challenge if anything.
> Obviously we disagree however I feel all apparent errors or
> contradictions come from a wrong view such as persons who think the
> Bible says Pi is 3 because they do not realize the circumference is
> that of the inside of the bowl. Finding Pi with that known
> circumference gives you 3.1415 etc. It's like how persons complain
> that Genesis says God created plants before the sun at a time when
> Egypt worshipped the sun as a source of life it's obvious ancient
> farmers knew the sun caused plants to grow. Don't you think they
> would consider that when "inventing" their creation story?
>
> I'd certainly like to email back and forth on these matters in a way
> which does not inconvenience you. it would be a pleasure.
>
> Thanks, God bless
>
>
>
> On Jun 7, 2009, at 2:40 PM, Dan Barker wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for writing, but if you read the answer to the question, you
>> will see clearly that Exodus 34 is called "the ten commandments,"
>> and Exodus 20 is not, nor is the version in Exodus 20 written on
>> stone tablets. So there is no error in our Bible Quiz.
>>
>> Best wishes.
>>
>> Dan Barker
>> FFRF, Inc.
>>
>> On Jun 7, 2009, at 3:54 PM, Brandon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I found an error in the ten comandments question, clearly the
>>> commandments are in exodus 20 and deuteronomy 5. What is found in
>>> exodus 34 is not the entire ten commandments but a number of laws
>>> including some of the commandments.
>>>
>>> Thanks, and God Bless
>>>

Scorpie

The most that Christians might believe in common is the Nicene-Constantinople creed.

orthodoxwiki.org...

The only mention in the Creed of any Hebrew Bible figures is "(The Holy Spirit) spoke by the Prophets." And which prophets are those? The Creed doesn't say. The Christian canon of the "Old Testament" is not held in common by all Christians. One possible definition is the major and minor prophets (referring to book length, rather than "importance"), books which appear throughout the Christian OT canons:

Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, (Lamentations is ascribed to Jeremiah), Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Haggai, Zephaniah, Zechariah, Malachi

We see a mixed bag: Daniel is widely believed (by Christians, Jews and non-believers alike) to be a fictional character, written about during the Second Century BCE. Jonah, too, is suspicious of fiction, harder to date than Daniel, but probably post-exilic.

Yes, Jesus mentions Daniel. Living teachers mention Hamlet, MacBeth and Prospero. So what? What difference does it make to the moral point whether a "real" MacBeth "really" saw a visionary dagger? What difference does it make whether Jonah really lived inside a big fish?

The list does not include several people whom Islam designates as Prophets. Adam, Abraham and Moses, for example, aren't on the list. Everybody who is on the list is placed (either as having lived, or been written about) during the First Millennium BCE. The earliest of them (Isaiah, Hosea, Amos and Micah, maybe) are 8th Century BCE, well after David and into literate times, and so there is some hope that their historicity can be sorted out.

So, with that factual foundation, the experiment contemplated in your OP has been done. The only part of the Old Testament that is creedal is the Prophets, and the "Prophets" include at least two figures, Daniel and Jonah, whom plenty of Christians "reject" (in the sense of not believing that the corresponding books are factual accounts of real people). In the case of Daniel, the cat was out of the bag before Nicea (from Porphyry), and Jesus had alluded to the book.

And what do you know? Christianity consolidated its power, expanded in numbers and influence, and has done fine for more than a millennium and a half. The church had divorced itself from Judaism by the end of the Second Century CE. The church takes what it needs from its antecedent, and can afford to be shrewdly critical of the rest, as many living Jews are, too.

FreeMason
You cannot have the Holy Spirit and believe in only parts of the Bible, it's not possible.... I'm almost certain if you can't see that the OT is complete and true then you must not have the Holy Spirit.

I'm VERY certain if you can't see that the OT has been largely debunked then you must not have much intelligence. So according to you, the Holy Spirit must make people brain dead.

What part of ... proven wrong ... don't you get?
I've already given the information showing which parts have been proven not to have happened.

This is the problem with Christians who think the Old Testament is to be taken literally. They make the rest of Christians look like idiots. The vast majority of Christians and Christian scholars understand that the Old Testament contains lots of myths, folklore, and allegories. For someone to go around claiming that a person must believe in the disproven Noahs Ark in order to 'have the Holy Spirit' .... well that's just absurd.

The ONLY thing required of a Christian is to believe that Jesus, the Son of God, came to save us from our sins. And the ONLY thing that Christians are supposed to try to do is follow his commandments of love God and neighbor. That's it. No literal belief in mythology is required.

wildtimes
The Bible does not prove the Bible is true.

Yep. Circular logic. 'The bible is true because it says so'. That doesn't fly.
That's no different than saying 'the Qu'ran is true because the Qu'ran says so'.
That simply doesn't work.

reply to post by FlyersFan

When/if Jesus body is dug up and his DNA is found to be from two human parents, then his conception story will be debunked as well as his rising from the dead, and Christianity will be dead.

Thats a big "if" because Christians are supposed to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and that his body went up to heaven. But let me guess, you dismiss those as myths as well.