Being christian while rejecting important OT figures?

babloyi
The Bible isn't really relevant to muslim beliefs. It IS relevant to Christian beliefs, however.

The POINT was that Skorpion is saying to WIldtimes that, if it's not in the bible, then it couldn't have happened. And yet, he buys into a whole lotta stuff in the Qu'ran that isn't in the bible. It's silly.

babloyi
The Quran itself states that parts of it are metaphorical, and parts of it are literal.

And that is how the bible is supposed to be read.
I gave the links from priests, ministers and bishops (or was it cardinals?) showing it.

@flyersfan.... ''and that is how the bible is supposed to be read.
I gave the links from priests,'' _________________________________________ Your own links showed christians believe in a literal Adam, noah, etc. Thereby contradicting your own rejection of them. So your links only helped my case.

sk0rpi0n
Your own links showed christians believe in a literal Adam, noah, etc. Thereby contradicting your own rejection of them. So your links only helped my case.

WRONG.

- My own links showed that priests, bishops, and ministers say the bible is literal, myth, allegory, and folklore and that each book should be read in the manner it was intended.

- My own links, and those of Wildtimes, show that at least half of Christians do not take the entire bible as literal. They read it as it was intended ... each book has it's own flavor of literal or myth or allegory or folklore.

Your muslim buddy popped in and said that the Qur'an is read the same way.
Deal with the fact that the bible is read like that, and it was intended to be read that way.

@flyersFan...... I can see you're still having trouble finding links to christian groups that share your beliefs about Adam, Noah etc as myths? So far, your precious links have only proven my end of the debate. That christians have to believe in the OT figures that you reject. Plus I posted my own links substantiating the same.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Did you wake up delusional this morning?

You are making no sense, and seem to be dissociated from your former self.
Or...or....
is it that you've finally discovered you have no case??

Wow.

I don't quite see how he HAD to have gone somewhere, or that he was MIA for 19 years. All we know is that the CANONICAL bible doesn't mention that part of his life. The non-canonical scripture from the same period is replete with stories about him from the so called "missing years". Doesn't in any sense mean he wasn't there.

Who knows? Maybe the Mormons are right and he went to the Americas . After all, with ancient hebrew inscriptions on the rocks there, at least we have SOME form of verifiable evidence.

reply to post by FlyersFan

FlyersFan
The POINT was that Skorpion is saying to WIldtimes that, if it's not in the bible, then it couldn't have happened.

Yes, for CHRISTIANS. Like it or not, outside of the religious scriptures, there is absolutely no evidence for Jesus. Many non-christians don't even believe in the existence of Jesus.

babloyi
Yes, for CHRISTIANS.

WildTimes isn't CHristian. So no, Skorpion wasn't speaking to that. He said that it wasn't in the bible so it didn't happen. And that's just false. It COULD have happened. And WIldtimes has anecdotal evidence strongly suggesting it did. The similar teachings for example ...

Like it or not, outside of the religious scriptures, there is absolutely no evidence for Jesus.

I'm fully aware of that.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


1 - Already posted. Pages 2 & 3 of this thread. Also already posted links from priest, ministers, and bishops stating the bible is to be read as literal, myth, folklore and allegory.

2 - I want to know who really is using skorpions account. It's not him. The refusal to look at the information provided is the same. But the manner of speech is very different. Who is in his account???

@ff...Also, discerning between ''literal'' and ''metaphorical'' is NOT the same as outright rejecting belief in OT figures and calling oneself a ''christian'', like you do. So far, all the christian links posted here show that christians believe in a ''literal'' adam, noah. So that makes you the exeption and as usual, wrong.

@flyersfan.....''But the manner of speech is very different. Who is in his account'' ... The manner of speech is different because I said the word ''cool''?.....Are you being serious? Also I switched to mobile phone some time ago, so my typing isn't as flexible. My text formatting might seem a little off. Trying to stir up something here?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Dude .. get a grip. You are dead wrong and obsessed with my title as Christian. WOW.

ATTENTION!


This is an Internet forum, not a personal argument forum. Keep to the issue and debate the subject, not the poster.

Failure to comply will have unpleasant consequences.

TheRedneck
ATS Forum Moderator

The Redneck,

Thanks for the notice. I will try to keep this thread on topic. These threads have a way of degenerating down to the lowest common denominator so to speak. Thanks,


Continuing on.

The problem historically with Eastern Religons, dogmas, and practices is the history and what history records.

By this I mean economic history.

For there is no other prime indicator or cause of economic prosperity of a people or nation outside of their religion. Religion is the prime determiner of what kind of economic system will take place.

By this I mean the ability of a people to freely practice their religion and the ability of that religion to keep their government in check and limited.

When you see the recorded history of men...you can break down their economies and economic systems down into the ability of government to extract the production of the people in favor of government or in favor of the people who earn and produce the substance.

Many ways, dogmas , and religions have been devised to cause this and they are recorded in history.

Only in a handful of nations have people ever had enough liberty to successfully raise themselves above the feudal or subsistance level of economics and reap the fruits of their labors.

You will not find this system in operation in Eastern Nations where the economies did not flourish sufficient to raise the standard of living above subsistance levels. If you do find it happening it was imported from the west. It did not originate in these nations.

Ironically, This is the very thought process/history avoided by most of public education today..in lieu of the dogma/religion/ and history from the East..that all religions are the same religion and all gods are the same god. That they can be swapped out...and the thinking to follow will bear more and better fruit.

It is not so.

What I notice and find ironic is that so many who are want to speak against Christianity tend towards speaking of history of the Church as being represented by the Roman Catholic Church.

I do not agree with this for one simple reason. History. Once you know the history and have it explained to you ...you can look at the history books and magazine articles and see them sneaking in Eastern Belief systems of confusion and attempting to overlay this on top of Christianity as if it was Christian. It is no such thing..it is Phariseeism.

For history records that there was almost no progress under the Roman Catholic Church. People lived mostly at a subsistance level or lower.
A few lived well off the labor of others. The priesthood, royalty and those educated or merchant class. But the Kings and Priesthood had the ability to extract from people unlimited.
This in history is called "Divine Right of Kings."

"Divine Right of Kings" Backed by a priesthood and the Popes is what kept most of Europe in Darkness and at a subsistance level or lower. No progress took place.

It was not until certain groups broke away from the RCC that withing 200 years historians began to notice a difference in the standard of living in the Catholic and Non Catholic areas of Europe. This meant Northern Germany, the lowland nations, and England. These were not Catholic areas.

It is these areas where progress began to be noticed...economic progress where the individual could keep more of their production for themselves and their discretionary spending. Historically when people can keep more of what they produce..production goes up rapidly. This is the secret most public educators financed by government today...do not want people to know..or even think.

Progress was also impossible under socialism/Marxism. For in these nations also the production of a people was ceded to the state..or as DFW Hegel was to say..."The State is God."

It just so happens that in the Communist nations belief in the God of the Bible and what was taught there was very very suppressed. It still is today. This is why these nations are often described as Atheist nations.
The irony here is in the knowledge that the economic fruit produced in the Communist nations is identical to the economic fruit produced in the Catholic nations..once you know the pattern.





A-without

Theos, God....without God

From the Greek language etymology.

I keep tending towards thinking and language and here in this country today movies and television are here to Amuse us with Amusement instead of reading and thinking about the nature of things.

For those who do not understand what is right in front of them...here from etymology again..

A-without
Muse-thinking, pondering, or another way..contemplating.

Amuse/Amusement...something fed to us to prevent thinking.

And this often takes the form of cultivating our emotions rather than disciplined thinking.
Emotions are not the same thing as thinking. You can tell in many of these posts as things become heated.

Know the history and also the language when debating these types of posts.

When you do not know these things sufficient not to be able to follow the pattern ..even the pattern in the history...you can easily be bamboozled into buying into the religions of the East.
But the economies of the East show historically a very different fruit.

By substituting the religions of the East..for Western history and religious beliefs..someone is trying to bring us back to feudalism..back to Divine Right of Kings..back to royalty...back to stagnant inert economies...back to the East.

BeWarned

Orangetom

Closer to topic,

Anything of importance to be known in the Olde Testament will be covered by the Apostles in the New Testament in referring to events and people back in the Olde Testament.

This happens often in the various Books and Epistles of the New Testament.

Sadly ..I have seldom heard many of todays crop of Preachers and Ministers do a good job of teaching and preaching on this connection to the Olde Testament for today's Believer. It ought not to be this way.

As to the name Jesus...this is not that important per se...neither is His birthday. What is important to the Believer is for whom He died and shed His Blood.

That His blood is shed for us every day...24/7

Jesus has the office of Christ..or Annointed for the Remission of Sins.

He has many names going back into the Olde Testament
Among them are....

Life
Blood
Redeemer
Advocate
Almighty..
Son
Begotten

and a host of others.

here from this link.

bibleresources.org...

Many of these names are found in the Olde Testament.

To know this or of this one needs be more on meat and not on milk as the saying goes.

Notice that many of the unbelievers do not make this connection to the Olde Testament, what took place there, and its application to us in the New Testament. It is avoided.

The sad truth is that many Believers also do not make this connection. They should.

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom

More on the Eastern Religions and going to the East.


The Hebrews were told under the Law of Moses to not do as the nations around them were doing or did. For it was abominiation.

What the nations around them were doing was Eastern Religions and practices. These religions and their practices came in a host of variations and traditions but all of them abominations. This is why in the Olde Testament they were often referred to as Heathen.

For example here in Jerimiah chapter 10.

10 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the "heathen" , and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

You see..the heathen are still with us today. Do you know a people who would do such a thing today???"

Amazing how little thinking is going on out here today...in lieu of "Emoting" and people know it not.

Remember what I posted about Amusement..amuse!!??

This is from the East. The traditions of men.


Nonetheless the history reads from the Olde Testament that the Children of Israel began to do the abominations they were told not to do..in taking on the customs and traditions of the East..of the nations surrounding them. Of the World...

They begain to leave the Law of Moses by privily superimposing this tradtion over the Law of Moses as if it was the Law of Moses when it was no such thing.

And they loved these traditions more than they loved the Law of Moses and God.
In this manner..the Children of Israel became disobedient and switched gods to another god...while claiming they were keeping the Law of Moses...they were disobedient. This going after other gods is often called "Whoredom" from the Olde Testament unto the New Testament.

This is how one knows that Jesus did not go to the East to follow these traditions. One needs be very thoroughly taught in both the Olde Testament and New Testament to follow the patterns in order to piece this together. For the traditions and customs of the East...God found to be abomination and whoredom and did not want His people to have anything do do with this.

You will find only a handful of ministers, preachers, or priests who will teach this to their flocks. For it is only among these very few Faithful of the Lord where the "Whole Council of God" is preached.
Most Christians today haven't a clue. And I believe their Shepherds want them clueless.


God would send prophets to tell the children of Israel...to turn about and go the other way..to go to the West and away from the East. The children of Israel often stoned or killed these prophets...just as they plotted to kill Jesus. In like manner to them plotting to kill the Apostle Paul. For they were all telling the children of Israel and eventually The Christian Church to not take on the image of the world.

By the way...one of the earlier posters is quite correct in that the children of Israel did not practice Judaism.
What they were instructed to do is practice the Law of Moses. Mosaism.


Judiasm is an amalgum of traditions which came about as a result of the loss of the land..the priesthood ..the temple..and the king. All of these were lost when the Romans sacked Israel and in particular Jerusalem in 70 AD under General Titus. Judiasm today is not Olde Testament.

It is not possible today to keep the Law of Moses as written in the Olde Testament. This is a very important tell tale of what today's Israel..that land over in the end of the Mediterranian.. Sea really is. However..once again many of our ministers, priests, and preachers do not teach this for what it really is.

Nonetheless....

And at the same time...this ignorance by our religious leaders leaves many so called Christians awash in false Christianity and ignorant of even the New Testament..much less the Olde Testament. Once again it ought not to be this way.

Someone out here has invested heavily in our ignorance about many things including the Word.

Many of todays Christians are doing exactly the abominations and whoredoms that the Ancient Hebrews/Israel were doing...following the traditions of men. And they are calling this Christianity. With this tradition of the East passing itself off as Christian ..it is easy for many such as Wildtimes and others to talk the Believers into a corner.

Because many of us are not only not well versed in the Law of Moses..but also not well versed in the Whoredoms of the Children of Israel. So how would we know the difference here in New Testament times when we are ourselves doing the very same pattern.

The religions of the East were designed to cause this very confusion. It is not accidental.

Hope this helps some ..however few ..to think outside the box of what attempts to pass for both Olde Testament and New Testament.

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom

reply to post by wildtimes

No. Not just you and other muslims.
ANYONE who believes in a fiery hell
and the only reason they do good
things is to avoid it. We're back to the
"morals do not come from Religion"
issue, which you seem pointedly unable to grasp and accept.

why does believing in hell automatically imply that one does good and avoids bad for the fear of it?
I do not break traffic rules and I know of the fine that I would pay if I did but I obey them because I know that they are for my and others' safety.
I grasped your view on morals very well, I just don't agree with it completely.

It's shallow to believe that people only
behave because they are afraid of
torture and pain, in ANY situation -
religious or otherwise.

yes, it is relatively shallower than doing things after understanding them but it is effective in promoting good and making the world better.

You want that everyone does the right things only after understanding them and not out of fear? How is that good for humanity if only a small group of intellectuals do good and the rest don't because they don't understand it?

Its no different than a child growing and learning. At the start he would operate on reward and punishment but once he grows then the understanding would come but that does not mean that the reward and punishment should stop or disappear.
Anybody who has understood the things and then screams that reward n punishment are shallow is doing an injustice to the fellow human beings who haven't yet reached that level.
Islam is for people at every level from peasants to philosophers, one of the reasons I stay a muslim.
You and others here do that mistake of picking up the level(lower) thats not for you and then judging Islam badly.

Actually in your
particular case I think you are more
interested in the "righteous revenge" part of your theory.

my theory is that only the victim has a right to either extract revenge or forgive not you and me and the State should help the victim in providing that justice within an acceptable preset limit.

No doubt I'm already on your
"target" list - so if Allah ever consults
you, I'm already in line for the fiery pit.
If not, I'd sure like to know about it. The tone of your response overall
suggested that you might think I'm
not a demon after all.

hahaha.. I never thought of you as a demon!!
You are not on my target list, I do not have any list and If God consults me, i'l take your side but I don't think that I can be more merciful or just than God.

There
are FAR too many CHILDREN being
beaten, shamed, warned, silenced,
taught violence, and sure they are
HEADED FOR HELL -- and that makes for
sociopaths. Chronic fear, and helplessness - but
blamed on "themselves" for being
born worthless sinners. Yeah, no. I'll leave it at: for just "being
born."

Thats a very christian understanding. Yes among muslims too there are people who only raise children with ideas of fear and thats because of lack of Islamic education. Maybe now you'l understand why I want muslims to learn about Islam, read the Qur'an along with a good traslation etc.

reply to post by logical7

why does believing in hell automatically imply that one does good and avoids bad for the fear of it?

It doesn't, when one is speaking about adults. My concern is using "hell" as a tool to frighten children into submission.

reply to post by logical7

hahaha.. I never thought of you as a demon!!
You are not on my target list, I do not have any list and If God consults me, i'l take your side but I don't think that I can be more merciful or just than God.

That is kind of you. I'll back you up, too...if I'm ever asked.
Say, logical7, do you celebrate Christmas as "the birth of Jesus"? Just wondering what the custom is among Muslims.