Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'

Unfortunately, for some, this interesting subject of research has turned into a religious dispute. No problem it's human nature, I have done it often myself. But this doesn’t usually get anywhere.

Fire takes the place of light and yin yang stretches and breakes unity and ugliness occurs and the light goes out.

The believer versus the non-believer, the Christian versus the Muslim, the Catholic versus the Protestant, the Jew versus the Gentile; on and on and on and we never get the light back.

I have my personal opinion and religious view but I love the search for knowledge so much that it transcends my personal view and the subject is pregnant with interest because of the period that is cloaked in so much mystery, we really are missing out of a great treasure hunt of knowledge when we get sidetracked into dogmatic disputes.

But that’s the way of the world, so be it.

reply to post by Willtell


I'll just address this reply to you and the previous poster then, since it fits both.

What evidence has Atwill provided for his claims? Do you feel Joseph Atwill has sufficient evidence to make his claims? If so, Why? What evidence has been presented that runs contrary to Atwill's claims? Do you you feel the evidence that has been provided that opposes his claims is sufficient? Have you reviewed it? Do you understand it? Is it biased or unbiased? Are Atwill's claims biased or unbiased? What sources have been cited for either side of the argument? Is one argument more reasonable than the other? If so, Why?

reply to post by DeadSeraph

What evidence has Atwill provided for his claims? Do you feel Joseph Atwill has sufficient evidence to make his claims? If so, Why? What evidence has been presented that runs contrary to Atwill's claims? Do you you feel the evidence that has been provided that opposes his claims is sufficient? Have you reviewed it? Do you understand it? Is it biased or unbiased? Are Atwill's claims biased or unbiased? What sources have been cited for either side of the argument? Is one argument more reasonable than the other? If so, Why?

I'm here for the free coffee and the butthurt. Other than that...

reply to post by DeadSeraph


Legitimate questions.

I can’t answer at this time because I haven’t read all of the material.

Though I have read and researched this topic for a long time and have studied Gerald Massey, The Jesus Papers, Acharya S ( who I don’t like at all) William Henry and many other materials including the Gospel of Barnabas.

This guy may be weak in his research I have to find out. But I just heard of him when this OP was posted.

I will in time read the other posts.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


well then...



See how easy that is?

reply to post by Willtell


I'm fairly certain Atwill IS weak in his research. But that should make him an expert by religious standards. Remember, it's faith that matters, not fact!

On one level, the bickering going on, this is the classic case of the elephant in the room where people are all yelling that they have the truth and the fact is that we all have a part of the truth.

en.wikipedia.org...

“Some Hindoos were exhibiting an elephant in a dark room, and many people collected to see it. But as the place was too dark to permit them to see the elephant, they all felt it with their hands, to gain an idea of what it was like. One felt its trunk, and declared that the beast resembled a water-pipe; another felt its ear, and said it must be a large fan; another its leg, and thought it must be a pillar; another felt its back, and declared the beast must be like a great throne. According to the part which each felt, he gave a different animal…”

luminancecoaching.com... of the

Actually all the religions have degrees of truth. They are only theories; it’s the user (practitioner) who is supposed to activate the theory to make them actualize the benefits of what the theory purports to advance.

The problem is that few go beyond the faith (theory) level of truth to the level of realizing spiritual truth through experience.

Three levels of spiritual (religious) truth
Lore
Intuition
Actualization

Those who only get the first 2 are incomplete

In this instance this Atwell guy may have a slimmer of truth( in terms of historical truth) he may not, it's unclear to many at this point.

DeadSeraph
reply to post by SuperFrog

 

Hitchens should have mentioned people like you. People who argue pointlessly in the face of contrary evidence. Oh wait... Hitchens DID mention people like you. They are called EVANGELICALS.

Really missing my eye rolling smiley right about now...

You are funny...

Hitchen did mention that religion should be ridiculed, and this is part of it... all those 'stories' they took for granted... without single piece of evidence.

Why not ask question? Questions don't kill the people, but people have been killed because they asked some questions before...

Thankfully we live in age that you are not allowed to follow book as law...

ParasuvO
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

the only thing the "evil" entities want is to get us to open the last gate, so they can finally put down the energy which powers it all, without a thought about consequence.

You know something, in these two posts right there I think i might have just razed the bastions so to speak and opened the door to the last gate, but talk about a "double bind", since it's something that was conceived from the very beginning, beginning with the end in mind (including the configuration of a fifth generation star's solar system) and set to play itself out presumably as a type of running cosmic joke at EVERYONE's expense, from here of all places, and through a human being (where the last are first and the first, last)

- how beloved are we? to God, then, and what is the destiny of the human being, what it is that we are intended to realize in the fullness of time and history, and in the process of this entire cosmic drama and epic comedy, what is it that the watchers will come to discover and realize about the true nature of God in the person of Jesus Christ? Maybe the whole universe is at the most fundamental level, Christian, something that the earthly church of Rome has attempted to monopolize to own and dispense and to "rule the roost" but no more, now the living water is freely available and freely offered to all who thirst by the Spirit and the Bride of Christ, which is anyone and everyone who is married to Jesus, or "on the way" to him, by at least giving him the time of day by talking about him and having a conversation about him, about who he was, what he did, what he said, and what he ultimately meant to be communicated, to us, even today and therefore from age to age, through him and thus from the one who also sent him where for there to be love there is always a beloved and beloved other or an "us" plural..

That Jesus let me tell you, by following the trail and the breadcrumbs left for him to find, and follow, he made none other than God known to man, as well as who and what man is, to God. It is man and God both rediscovering themselves after an eternity, which was prepared for us from before the very foundation of the world. What love is that, and what patience and perseverance, whether you accept the Big Bang principal or not .

Because in the final analysis, the double, triple, quadruple, bind, of reason and logic and the Spirit of Wisdom (Sophia, who is also Christ) begins and ends in the love of God for ALL his children, and +++ there is simply no defense against the love of God in Jesus Christ +++, so the "bind" (on evil) holds, and it is therefore "safe" and secure to open, yes even fling open, wide, the door of Christ who now stands as tall as heaven, like a Bridegroom prepared for his Bride, which is not only the human being, but the whole earth, and the new earth in all it's glory and splendour which cannot be denied either from a terrestrial POV or a celestial one.

Bastions razed, right to the very door of Christ himself, who's just too much to take in his kindness, gentleness, tender mercy and absolute joy and humor and celebration, which is only fitting for a wedding date set forth in the very origins and clockwork of the ENTIRE COSMOS.


Best regards,

NAM aka Bob

but talk about a "double bind", since it's something that was conceived from the very beginning, beginning with the end in mind (including the configuration of a fifth generation star's solar system) and set to play itself out presumably as a type of running cosmic joke at EVERYONE's expense, from here of all places, and through a human being (where the last are first and the first, last)

And when they do all "get it" which is inevitable, since the tracks have been laid, everyone, and I mean EVERYONE like every where, will be left scratching their heads (or whatever) in asking the question - "but how did he KNOW?!"

Now that's "soft power" at it's finest where the definition of Virtue is both immense power and power, restrained.

What's funny too is that we, here on earth of all places, will be the very last to "get it" and recognize and comprehend it's true meaning and significance, yet the signature for the joke remains here of all places in the cosmologically unique earth-moon-sun configuration by which Jesus himself performed his superdeterministic, cosmological Magnum Opus on Nisan 14 by our calendar April 3rd, 33AD.

You see it just killed the thread and didn't even warrant a single star because everyone's afraid to laugh and enjoy the humor of true understanding in the truth that sets us free.

You may wish to write me off as crazy and what I've written here in this thread and others as the rantings of a madman, but there again what's funny is that you can't.

I just go by what I have seen HIM do/say, nothing more nothing less, but you can see why he must have driven some people stark raving mad with seething hatred at the truth in their case quite literally staring them right in the face.

So they tried to kill him, as expected!

Oh sigh when will we ever learn...?

We cannot be rid of Jesus, as much as we wish to do so or at the very least if we could, significantly reduce his stature, as a mere human being.

Such GAUL to insult and offend the very worst part of us in this manner, while sealing the deal in a Chinese handcuffs double-bind on our hatred and our jealousy, how DARE he!

Meanwhile all he ever wanted, was to include everyone else and be included, compelling him to solve the problem in accordance with the will of God which is the will to love. That's what he did and for all the right reasons..

I tell you in all honestly that it's enough to bring any honest and reasonable person to tears, first of utter sorrow and regret and repentance, and then, when we hang in their with him through the ordeal and out the other side into the resurrected life, tears of absolute HILARITY at the sheer magnitude of it's genius (as well as all our prior ignorance), and always the gentlemen so never once at the cost of our freedom, to the contrary paying the very price by which we might be set free in eternity for the sake of the love of God Almighty and of people then and now, and tomorrow.

It is the most beautiful thing that anyone could possibly imagine and even then it's unimaginable.

It wasn't therefore a "Roman psy-op" penned by some ancient Philip Zelikow. LOL!

And the tracks are laid. Heck there was even a piercing of the "heart of the Ram" conveniently situated nearby in a thicket.. but now of stars instead of brambles and thorns, on Nisan 14, and a blood red moon over the door so to speak while fulfilling the whole of the prophecy and the law and rendering large as a "passover" nothing less than the Tree of Life itself including the twin pillars of Justice and Mercy which bend to the ends of the entire depth and breadth and "full body spectrum" (in Spirit and Truth) of all being and becoming, and quite literally from the beginning to the end and from the Alpha to the Omega of existence ("I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last") - the Gateway, to eternal life, not eaten by man via a theft (as many surely have done.. from time to time) but instead, as a gift from God extended to us, to both Liberate and to preserve and protect well, everything that's worthwhile including the restoration of our humor, our joy, and playful co-creativity with God in a right relationship (enjoying koinonia or an intimate, participatory relationship and communion or "being with") with the same love who IS Jesus Christ, and, if that weren't enough with the very very best part of who and what WE really and truly ARE as children of God also and within the whole context of the brotherhood of man and the fatherhood of God or what I like to call "the relativity of human being". "I have only one commandment. Love one another as I have loved you."

But who would have thought that it amounts to a baptism of humor (thrown 'off balance' and plunged directly into the truth) at the expense of the devil within (to bury the 'old man'), blindsiding precisely that which simply had to be dealt with, at core, and bound (with logic and reason) so that a resurrection might be possible to begin with?

It's the joke you only get once it's already too late, and that's the beauty of it, and as long as it's told who cares precisely who and how many get it, only that it's already on it's way.. as an inevitability.

That Jesus, what a lovely lovely joker let me tell you. : )

He's just too much to take, almost..



So, who wants to be the first to try get rid of him, or demote him now..?


Best Regards,

NAM aka Bob

P.S. You wanted a conspiracy of Biblical proportions well there it is, and it turned out to be a type of loving joke of sorts told through humanity from earth of all places where perhaps it is true that the last are first and the first, last. The key to the parable of the Prodigal Son is the eventual return of the elder brother who flat out refused to join the party, so it's funny at all levels where I suspect that the joke isn't just on us alone.

Therefore, after perhaps a great groan (ohhhhhh noooooooo), let an even greater CHEER (HURRAY!) go up in the heavens at the revelation of the sons of God that everyone's been waiting for, and all it requires on our part is that like the prodigal son we get our head out of the pig trough and come to our senses and begin to make the return journey home to where we belong, hoping to be received perhaps as a servant if we are lucky only to be astonished to discover a running father ready to envelop us in a loving embrace, place a ring on our finger, new shoes on our feat and a magnificent robe, along with a great meal and a party and a celebration of festivity and joy.

The poor elder brother who worked the farm all along cannot fathom why this wretch of a "brother" is worthy of anything, having blown his inheritance and thrown his life away on "riotous living". "Please" pleaded the father, "you have been with me always and everything that I have is yours but here your brother was lost, but now is found again, was dead, but is ALIVE, again!"

That Jesus. Knew how to wield a mere parable to the ends of the earth and beyond.

Context and framing is everything.

I think he's full of something. Sequences of events that are "more or less" the same? Parallels that are "conceptual or poetic"? Sounds to me like twisting this and that to make a name for himself, and spread nonsense in the process. Literally hundreds of years of writings that accurately describe the life of Jesus, and hundreds of eye-witnesses, and he wants to claim the Romans "invented" Him? Frankly, this seems to be one of the most lame attempts at discrediting Christianity that I have seen, and I have seen some doozies!

Jacktrades
A psychological tactic that can be employed is to bastardize a cause. Perhaps by insuring the persecution of the followers of this new religion, those that would go on to become martyrs would get others to join and believe in the religious fervor.
...

Again, it doesn't make sense, Christians, and even apostles were threatened and pressured to deny Jesus Christ. They were not only persecuted but the ones caught were thrown in arenas alive with lions, or they were tortured, or burned alive, or stabbed, or cruxified. Most of the apostles were killed by either the Romans, or by other people. They were not suicide bombers, and most if not all would have rather lived as long as they were allowed to follow their faith.

Christianity was no an invention by the Romans. Christianity existed before the Romans took it over and merged rituals from other religions into Christianity.

reply to post by Logarock


It is. The term scumbag is yours. The reality is that at our cores. Un-tamed. Raised wrong or just neglected. We are animals.

These codes shouldn't have to drive people to "self-righteousness" again a title given without the actions to earn it.

If you deny that basic natural rights exist. That basic natural understandings SHOULD or do exist. That is your opinion. I see the teachings of Christ through my own understanding in this manner. I could be completely wrong. It's just what I choose to remind myself just as Barry Sanders used to when he would score a touchdown and not celebrate. I try to act as if I have been here before and I plan on coming back.

We are all scumbags inside to an extent. To suggest that you are not or have no defects of character in any way. His horribly vein regardless of whether or not you are a christian or an atheist or even agnostic. In the world this type of governing we have catered too people who are sensitive to find out they are not perfect.
This isn't (IN MY OPINION) Only based in "Religion" ,"Spirituality" or "Human Nature" but rather all three.

A Dog or cat is different than the next dog or cat. What they become has a lot to do with what you put into raising it.
This whole thing is a message to us to LOOK AT OUR OWN WORLD. Don't think that you're above being the ones that end it. Plan for the future and live to preserve the way of life for future generations..

In our own United States we have gambled the future of our own country on things that defy logic.
Fixing problems as they come along instead of trying to rid them completely is a horrible idea and it's difficult to stomach that some people would see this as good.

These ARE NOT necessarily true. They are of my own idiotic opinion. Regardless of the belief behind it. There has GOT to be a middle ground we can one day reach.

oh Jesus, what did you DO?!!!


... for whatever it's worth, i love you, too.

and there it is the circle is joined, at last.

thanks for bringing this to the attention of us ATSer's. Not sure if Jesus was a real person or not, was never very interested in the subject. but religion IS a control mechanism. I will have to give this book a read. S&F

.... yea, i think Atwill is just selling books, but so was Churchward. Can't hurt anything to give it a once over.

NC1979
thanks for bringing this to the attention of us ATSer's. Not sure if Jesus was a real person or not, was never very interested in the subject. but religion IS a control mechanism. I will have to give this book a read. S&F

.... yea, i think Atwill is just selling books, but so was Churchward. Can't hurt anything to give it a once over.

edit on 15-10-2013 by NC1979 because: (no reason given)

I can't believe this idiot is selling books like this...

Why? What is wrong with book that is based on historical evidence to prove that Jesus was invented by Romans.

Wonder, why Vatican is not on 'holy land' somewhere, why it is in Italy. (OK, for one part in History it was also in France)

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Konduit

 

Love and justice, eh? More like greed and dominance. He's the alpha dog archetype, suffering from delusions of grandfatherly stature. Jesus, maybe. But not God. Nope.

edit on 10-10-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Your own opinions aren't fact, but you can convince yourself all you want.

windword
reply to post by Konduit

 

The fact is the God of the Old Testament hates free will. He didn't bestow it on us and he works every trick in the book to get us to surrender our free will to him, including trying to convince us that we don't have free will.

"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old, ordained to this condemnation." -- Jude 4

These quotes from Thessalonians have absolutely nothing to do with your argument, your really just randomly pulling scripture and putting a spin on it to suit your own needs? Too bad it only works on those completely ignorant of the bible. What's the agenda here?

reply to post by Spectral Norm

Why not just submit your ideas for publication and debate them openly just like everyone else in the industry? There is a tendency these days to try to bypass scholarly review by making direct appeal to the general public. That's all well and good, but it can lead to trouble. E.g., I have a theory, but it requires that the Gospel of Peter (for example) be dated to the first century. But if I try to make the case for an early date for it, biblical scholars will point out that there are some serious problems, so I will just bypass them and appeal to the masses, because the average person doesn't know any better and will accept my claim and (hopefully) buy my very expensive book. Great. Except for one thing. That isn't scholarship, it's moneymaking via writing.

Now, compare what you just said that 'scholars' are doing - bypassing their peers and going directly to the masses ---
who don't know any better ----
with PREACHERS, who do THE SAME DAMN THING....

biblical scholars will point out there are some serious problems [with my sermon and my church's dogma], so I will just bypass them and appeal to the masses, because the average person doesn't know any better and will accept my claim and (hopefully) [fill up the collection plate so I can drive a Ferrari and live in a multi-million dollar mansion].

Great. Except for one thing. THAT ISN'T TENDING TO THE SOULS OF OTHERS, IT'S MONEYMAKING VIA PREACHING.

I'm not meaning to be a smart-ass towards you, but I don't see a whole helluva lot of difference between a scholar announcing he's going to speak at a symposium for those interested, and preacher "touring the country" going to be a "guest-pastor" at mega-churches. They don't do it for free. But the masses drool on themselves and write the checks to them.

See what I'm saying?