The big bad Bible

reply to post by defcon5


Here ya go.

Point 1:

I often thought people treat God rather rudely, don’t you? Asking- trillions and trillions of prayers every day, asking and pleading and begging for favours, do this, give me that, I need a new car, want a better job, and most of this praying takes place on Sunday... his day off.

Point 2:

And I say fine, pray for anything you want, pray for anything but what about the divine plan? Remember that? The divine plan... long time ago, God made a divine plan, gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice, and for billions and billions of years, the divine plan has been doing just fine, now you come along and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn’t in God’s divine plan. What do you want him to do? Change his plan? Just for you? Doesn’t that seem a little arrogant? It’s a divine plan!

Point 3:

And here’s something else, another problem you might have... suppose your prayers aren’t answered, what do you say? “Well it’s God’s will, thy will be done.” Fine, but if it’s God’s will and he’s gonna do what he wants to anyway, why praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn’t you just skip the praying part and go right to his will? It’s all very confusing.

Point 4:

So I’ve been praying to Joe for about a year now, and I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers that I used to offer to God and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time, I get what I want, half the time, I don’t, same as God, 50-50, same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well, and the rabbit’s foot, same as the mojo man, same as the voodoo lady

reply to post by randyvs

But does that matter?

Nope. Then again, my reply had about as much substance as the post which I was quoting. Remember, according to Martin Luther, my works don't matter: I have no need to take the high road when you take the low. I can walk right there beside you on it, exchanging ad hominem and nonsensical quips.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Nothing he is expressing here is a concern about “christian doctrine”, its what he believes that Christians do. Christ told us how to pray and addressed these “issues”:

Matthew 6
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.’
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

This is why I stated above, he's doing comedy not speaking from actual doctrine or even from an factual “biblical” point of view. As a matter of fact, considering that he is an ex-catholic he's probably never even read the bible. Though most modern Catholics deny this, the truth is that the RCC is not fond of commoners reading the Bible for themselves, they feel that the common man is not able to correctly interpret what is written in the bible without reading it in “light” of proper church “doctrine”. Its sort of a roundabout way of admitting that if people read it for themselves they come to the same conclusions that the protestant reformers did.

Wandering Scribe
Comparing infinity and infinity, with a white lie and murder is like comparing apples to oranges. One is a finite sin, the other has infinite ramifications.

Lets try this again.

God is infinitely holy, if he allowed anything less then he would cease to be so anymore.

So lets say that God did rank sin, and a “little white lie” = -1 and “murder” = -1,000,000, okay?
The -1 makes you just as infinitely negative and unacceptable in his eyes as the -1,000,000 does.
That is why Christ had to pay the price for our sins, and we cannot do it ourselves, only he has the ability to pay an infinite debt.

So no matter if the sin is -1 or -1,000,000 its still infinitely negative to God. Therefore all sins are equally bad in his eyes.

Wandering Scribe
As I said, one if finite, it's cause and effect having an obvious beginning and end (telling a white lie), the other has infinite ramifications, effecting the entire future of a family/species (killing someone).

You don't know the actual amount of damage that one lie can cause, you only see it from a human perspective. Besides the “resulting” damage is not what sin is about, its about going against the will of God to begin with. God set certain rules that are in the “ten commandments”, when you break any of those rules, you've gone against Gods will, and thus its a sin. It does not matter which commandment you break, because you disobeyed God it becomes an infinitely evil act. Again, that is why man cannot “work off” the debt from a “little white lie” any more then he can “work off” the debt from murder.

Wandering Scribe
Man recognizes that the severity of a white lie, and the severity of murder are different. Which is why murdering someone results in a heavier punishment then saying you're wearing a red t-shirt, when, in fact, it is blue.

God allows society to punish a man on Earth for those sins. Even the government understands this, which is why they will tell a condemned man that he will pay for his crime to society by being put to death, but may God forgive him and have mercy on his soul. Man sets scale to sins, and man punishes accordingly, but to God they are all equally terrible as they all are breaking his “will”.

Wandering Scribe
As for doctrine, while it may be entirely Biblical, there are denominations which believe your deeds and actions matter, which disagrees with Martin Luther's philosophy. I don't really care either way (as I put not faith in Christian doctrine of any kind). I just wanted to point out that, under Luther's philosophy, your are not accountable for your worldly actions, because faith, not deed, is all that God cares about.

All protestant faiths I am aware of believe in “grace”, the only Christian Religion which does not teach grace is Catholicism.

Actually I think I might have just realized your misunderstanding here, and how to better explain it.

You think that when you do something to your fellow man, that should be ranked according to how much “damage” that it did. That is “sin” from mans perspective.

God looks at it as you having gone against his will. That is God's perspective.

So you have two prices to pay for your sin, your debt to mankind and your debt to God.

So lets go back to our “sin ranking” here...

“Mans Ranking of sin”
-1 = Lie
-1,000,000 = Murder

“Gods ranking of Sin”
-Infinite = Going against God's will.

You will pay the price for your sin here on Earth to society, but that does not pay off your debt to God. Even if God followed mans ranking, when he adds his own to it, all sin becomes infinitely negative. Again, that is why Christ had to be sent to pay our debt because we cannot pay of even the least of our sins to God.

reply to post by defcon5


Oh no, I do understand that God sees all sin as the same, which is why I said that a God who makes no distinction is not a good God.

Let's look at it another way:

If you removed God from this sense of justice, and instead applied it to a Supreme Court, would you be as supportive? If the Supreme Court ordered children be put to death for telling a white lie (say, my t-shirt example), would you agree with their actions?

As for the Catholics, you do realize that 1.2 billion Christians are Catholic, right? Half of all Christians on Earth, of any denomination, are Catholic. I don't think you can so easily write off half of a religions adherents when it comes to following or not following a specific doctrine.

~ Wandering Scribe

Wandering Scribe
Oh no, I do understand that God sees all sin as the same, which is why I said that a God who makes no distinction is not a good God.

You think that there are sins that should punish a person to eternal hell? If so, then I think that is your problem with understanding this. God does not want ANYONE to go to hell, no matter what they did, he is more merciful than that. People are only damned because THEY choose to be damned, not because God damns them. A God that would wish anyone to be sent to eternal hell because of circumstances that occurred on this planet, under the influence of Satan's world, and possibly beyond their control would be far crueler then one who wants to extend forgiveness to everyone as a free gift.

In seeking to “rank” sin, you are only trying to prove to yourself that you are “better” then other sinners, when in fact you are a sinner just like 100% of the rest and worst of us.

Wandering Scribe
If you removed God from this sense of justice, and instead applied it to a Supreme Court, would you be as supportive? If the Supreme Court ordered children be put to death for telling a white lie (say, my t-shirt example), would you agree with their actions?

If the supreme court had created all of us, then who would we be to argue with whatever they chose to do with us. As they are not the creator, but just creations equal to the rest of us, they judge in accordance with mans laws here on earth. You are comparing Men with their Creator, then you accuse me of comparing apples to oranges.

Wandering Scribe
As for the Catholics, you do realize that 1.2 billion Christians are Catholic, right? Half of all Christians on Earth, of any denomination, are Catholic. I don't think you can so easily write off half of a religions adherents when it comes to following or not following a specific doctrine.

If you were Satan, you ruled this planet, and had all the time in the world to enact a plan to cause the most damage to God's plan as possible, how would you do it? Maybe you'd exert your influence on the biggest Christian denomination in the history of the world, and maybe you'd do that by subverting God's word by putting 10% falsehoods into 90% biblical truth. By making “pagan tradition” equal with the “Word of God”; after all the best lies are the ones that are 90% truth. For example, the Bible says “salvation through grace” so you make it “salvation through grace and works”, The Bible says “pray in Christs name only” so you say “You can pray to any of a list of intercessors as well as Christ”, etc...

reply to post by defcon5


Excuse me for butting in here, butt........

God does not want ANYONE to go to hell, no matter what they did, he is more merciful than that. People are only damned because THEY choose to be damned, not because God damns them.

How can "GOD" have unmet desires or be forced to do anything it doesn't want to? Who chooses to damn themselves? I don't, and yet, according to Christians, because I can't find a logical compass within to believe the Bible's stories, I am condemned and I am condemned by the Christian God, who I am told I with stand in front of to be judged and sentenced.

Why do you think that the biblical god of the Old Testament is the creator of the universe and the "One True God", when so many of things that "he" orders and condones are so horrific?

dbl post

windword
How can "GOD" have unmet desires or be forced to do anything it doesn't want to?

Because he gave man free will, and as such he will not force you to accept grace. If he was going to force everyone to do his will, then this whole existence would be pointless, we could just be born right into paradise.

windword
Who chooses to damn themselves?

Those who have so hardened their hearts against God that they will reject his forgiveness. Many are extremely prideful people who are unwilling to accept that there could be a God, that a God could have created them, that they have committed any sins, or that there is anything that could possibly have any control over their lives except themselves. Pride is a major sin, it is what caused the war in heaven and the fall of the angels.

windword
Why do you think that the biblical god of the Old Testament is the creator of the universe and the "One True God", when so many of things that "he" orders and condones are so horrific?

Most of these accusations are based on not understanding what the Bible actually says, why it says it, or who the intended audience was. Most of these accusations are based on laws written by Jewish men that only ever applied to the Jews. They are not commands from God anymore then the US Constitution is. If you are worried about what God commands, then just read the “ten commandments”. Stuff in the Bible, like “If a man says 'nit' three times, take him to the wall and stone him” are old, inapplicable, Jewish law, they didn't come from God.

reply to post by defcon5


Thanks for your answer defcon,

Because he gave man free will, and as such he will not force you to accept grace. If he was going to force everyone to do his will, then this whole existence would be pointless, we could just be born right into paradise.

So he gave us free, but doesn't want us to use it, he wants us do his will. But, he will force us into hell, if we don't give up our free will, to do his will.

Makes no sense.

Those who have so hardened their hearts against God that they will reject his forgiveness.

I don't even know what that means. I know the Bible says that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he shows mercy to whoever he wants to. He boasts of being quite capricious.

Many are extremely prideful people who are unwilling to accept that there could be a God, that a God could have created them, that they have committed any sins, or that there is anything that could possibly have any control over their lives except themselves.

I think self confidence is a good thing, but in my experience, Christians have always sought to break my self esteem down. I don't believe in sin, per say, as defined as going against God's will. I have made mistakes that have caused others pain, and knowing that, I feel a pang of remorse. I learn from these painful experiences, both committed by me and against me, and use my inner moral compass to move forward and learn from my mistakes, making me a better person for it.

Pride is a major sin, it is what caused the war in heaven and the fall of the angels.

I guess God also gave the angels free will? What kind of God has 1/3 of his heavenly population rise against him? Why would he put these rebellious, self willed beings on the place as he put his finest and most loved creation, leaving them vulnerable to deceit, rape and corruption?

I can't' believe in such a God.

They are not commands from God anymore then the US Constitution is. If you are worried about what God commands, then just read the “ten commandments”.

I honestly don't understand why people are so keen on the Ten Commandments. In my opinion The 10 Commandments are Unnecessary, Irrelevant and Immoral

Thanks again for you reply.

windword
So he gave us free, but doesn't want us to use it, he wants us do his will. But, he will force us into hell, if we don't give up our free will, to do his will.

Well lets start off with the fact that “hell” is not even in the bible. Its a translation of a bunch of other words such as “Hades”. The Bible is not very clear on what hell is, but the reason people go there is because they are not permitted in the presence of God.

So for example, If I tell you that you cannot come into my house because you are covered in mud (sin), am I “punishing” you? That is sort of how it works, you cannot come into the presence of God while being covered in sin. If God allowed that then you would sully up him, and his alter, and he would become less holy himself.

Hell has been defined as “being outside the presence of God”, and the “fire” is not literal fire, but an intense yearning to be in communion with him and those who are with him.

As far as his will goes, yes he wants you to do his will of your own free will, not because he forces you to do so. I guess that if God wanted a bunch more “yes men” he could make a bunch more angels, couldn't he? He wants people who are going to choose him on their own. I don't know if its biblical or not, but personally I look at it like a rich man who tests those around him to see which are really his true friends, and which ones are only there because of his wealth and power. God is the ultimate “rich man” in that scenario, wouldn't you say?

windword
I know the Bible says that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he shows mercy to whoever he wants to.

Pharaoh was someone that was not going to accept God anyway, and as God can see into the future he already knows this. So God used him to strengthen the faith of a whole nation of people, the Jews. Seems perfectly logical to me.

windword
I think self confidence is a good thing, but in my experience, Christians have always sought to break my self esteem down.

Then I would have to question if they are really Christians. No Christian should be making you feel “less” because they are sinners just like you are. It is very common to use guilt as part of Roman Catholicism, which is again a gripe against whether or not its a Christian religion to begin with.

windword
I have made mistakes that have caused others pain, and knowing that, I feel a pang of remorse. I learn from these painful experiences, both committed by me and against me, and use my inner moral compass to move forward and learn from my mistakes, making me a better person for it.

Everyone has, and everyone feels this way, even if they don't admit it. That is part of the moral compass that God wrote in everyone's heart from creation, its called the “golden rule”. The Bible even admits that there are “good men” who are unbelievers, but they are still not saved because being “good” does not pay off the “debt”. You must accept salvation to be saved because even if you are “highly moral” and a “great person” you are still a sinner when compared to the “law”. Everyone is a sinner. That is why Christ had to come here as the only sinless person and be put to death for our sins.

windword
I guess God also gave the angels free will?

Originally, yes they had free will. It's arguable if they still have it.

windword
What kind of God has 1/3 of his heavenly population rise against him?

One who creates man in his own image, with a soul, higher, and more loved by God than the angles who had become filled with pride.

windword
Why would he put these rebellious, self willed beings on the place as he put his finest and most loved creation, leaving them vulnerable to deceit, rape and corruption?

Ah, good question.
This is not answered in the bible, but we can speculate. God knew this would happen, so it must have been a part of his plan. The angels fell of their own accord, no on exerted any influence on them to fall. You notice that they are NOT re-extended the same chance at grace that humans are? Perhaps in Gods great knowledge, he understood that man would fall, and as the angels were going to fall over the creation of man anyway, why not use them like he did pharaoh? Since the fallen angels were involved in influencing our fall, and it was not solely our fault, maybe that is why we are extended a second chance at salvation that they are not.

windword
I honestly don't understand why people are so keen on the Ten Commandments. In my opinion [url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread906264/pg1]The 10 Commandments are Unnecessary, Irrelevant and Immoral

I don't see that...
The Ten commandments are nothing but a more detailed version of the “Golden Rule” that all moral people live by. They break down into two commandments: “Love your neighbor as yourself” and “Love God above all”.

reply to post by defcon5


Defcon,

“Love your neighbor as yourself” and “Love God above all”

Words to live by, indeed. But I think we worship different Gods. I'm not moved or impressed by the message I receive from reading the Bible. Although, there is some really good stuff in it, the more I read of it, the more I repelled by it's message.

The angels fell of their own accord, no on exerted any influence on them to fall. You notice that they are NOT re-extended the same chance at grace that humans are?

The Gnostic texts suggest that the angels were tricked, by their assigned leader, who bid them to step into his new creation, and then they were trapped there. It feels to me that we are also trapped in our bodies. I don't align with all Gnostic beliefs, but this one I do.

Origen, an early Catholic church father, proposed that even Satan would, one day, be redeemed. Of course, he was condemned for heresy.

You must accept salvation to be saved because even if you are “highly moral” and a “great person” you are still a sinner when compared to the “law”. Everyone is a sinner. That is why Christ had to come here as the only sinless person and be put to death for our sins.

I accept my salvation, not because an innocent man was murdered, or because innocent blood is a free pass to heaven, but because I believe in a god of unconditional love, that's here, there and everywhere, and not separated from me in the least.

I believe that my soul IS the essence of who I am, and who I am, naturally, is a reflection of God. I think that all "dis-ease" is born from not being true to who we really are. We are learning to be who we are, and to be the same on the inside (thought) as we are on the outside (deeds), and to become completely transparent (naked), without shame.

This is the true meaning of "free will", in my opinion. We have it, but we don't use it. We let social norms tell us who we should be, and we loose our will in our addictions and cravings for material prosperity and acceptance. If God desires anything, I think it's that we embrace our free will, and free ourselves from the shackles of our own device.

Anyone who embraces their power and whose honesty is transparent, is a threat to the status quo, including "good" Christians. Wielding free will means breaking out of "the box".

In my humble opinion

windword
So he gave us free, but doesn't want us to use it, he wants us do his will. But, he will force us into hell, if we don't give up our free will, to do his will.Makes no sense.

I completely understand why you feel this way.Religion is so convoluted it doesn't know which way is up or sideways. The fact is free will is a myth.The religious have no scriptural support for it at all.Like the many "doctrines" of men they make them up as they go along.

First.There is no eternal punishment or annihilation or banishment of hell.There are VERY definitive words hell was translated from.The main one being Hades(new testament Greek) and Sheol (old testament Hebrew) they both mean..the grave,the realm of the dead ,the realm of imperception.

It is NOT a place anyone chooses to "go to".It's definitely not a place God sentences anyone to.The belief in the eternal punishment of hell with God as the punisher is a heinous blasphemous doctrine.So much so it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.All those that believe in it will not be forgiven (which forgiveness means freed from bondage.. it doesn't mean pardoned of guilt) in this age(the physical realm) nor the one to come(the Kingdom of God realm).

Those who have so hardened their hearts against God that they will reject his forgiveness.

windword
I don't even know what that means. I know the Bible says that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he shows mercy to whoever he wants to. He boasts of being quite capricious.

By the picture the religious paint of God he is beyond capricious ....he is a raving lunatic monster.As usual the translation/interpretation of the words betray what is being said.The blood thirsty good cop, bad cop God is fallacious.

Many are extremely prideful people who are unwilling to accept that there could be a God, that a God could have created them, that they have committed any sins, or that there is anything that could possibly have any control over their lives except themselves.

windword
I think self confidence is a good thing, but in my experience, Christians have always sought to break my self esteem down. ...............

Unfortunately your experience is the norm.The core of Christianity teaches an elitist mentality of "we are chosen" because we made a good choice" you are worthy of Gods derision because you didn't...oh btw.. Jesus loves you. I am normally not so flip about something so significant however the point is the majority of Christians cannot see past their pride.. it is "almost" laughable.Couple that elitist mindset with the doctrine of hell and it colors everything they think and do in black and white.It is an illicit license to have zero compassion for those that don't "believe" like them.

I am not condemning anyone.They don't have a clue what they are doing.It is part of the religious nature to judge.Matthew 7:1 says ...judge not or you will be judged by that judgement... never enters the religious mind.This is a hardening of the heart.Mans core disease is religion ..it isn't the cure. The religious mind cannot perceive this at all.

Pride is a major sin, it is what caused the war in heaven and the fall of the angels.

windword
I guess God also gave the angels free will? What kind of God has 1/3 of his heavenly population rise against him? Why would he put these rebellious, self willed beings on the place as he put his finest and most loved creation, leaving them vulnerable to deceit, rape and corruption?.....I can't' believe in such a God.

These are just more doctrine of men.The scriptures don't say 1/3 of the angels fell from heaven because of pride.Some Christian doctrines attribute that to "satan" and even go so far as to call "satan" the ruler of this world and say he is lucifer.All of that is completely false.

First off angels means messenger.It can be a man.The only place in scripture it comes close to even alluding to the 1/3 of angels is Revelation 12 and it's a BIG stretch.All of Revelation is written in metaphor.

As for lucifer.That word is used all of ONE time in all of scripture and it is not a proper name.The word satan mean adversary.There are many adversaries.. the main one being the religious carnal mind that is at complete enmity with God.However NONE of them rule this world regardless of what the chicken littles believe ...it is ALL in their head.

As for pride being the fall..there isn't even anything solid in the scriptures that says man fell!!...It would take a whole world full of books to explain all the fallacies of reality the religious carnal mind conceives.God has given them over to a strong delusion that they would believe a lie.These doctrines are all extrapolations to make false facts fit false theory's (theology).

The religious theology is all a house of cards that can be blown over by mosquito fart.I am constantly amazed how many BILLIONS believe it hook line and sinker.

They are not commands from God anymore then the US Constitution is. If you are worried about what God commands, then just read the “ten commandments”.

windword
I honestly don't understand why people are so keen on the Ten Commandments. In my opinion The 10 Commandments are Unnecessary, Irrelevant and Immoral

The Law is for lawless men.There are some that don't need a "law" to know what is wrong or right.(not about all things).The Law is to constrain the religious.I read a Christian on ATS say if not for the Law they would be very very bad...and I completely believe them.I've been in many churches and seen them.Thank GOD for the Law.!!

The point is living is not all about following morals and ethics.The reality is nobody should have to think about them at all.It should be the most natural thing there is and never thought about just done.

In closing (no this wasn't a sermon ...just shorter than one) I'd be amiss if I didn't say.God has one purpose.He is delivering(it's called salvation) EVERYONE from the valley of the shadow of death(hades) we live in. It is not "hell".God is doing this by grace(the action of salvation) through faith(the faith that is Gods). in other words God is doing it ALL..100% to EVERYONE regardless of what the religious say or believe..

He has given or will give all some faith so they can believe.However faith is not the purpose.The end game is knowing God.Communion.Religion is what is the cause of death...it is sin..falling short and missing the mark.The many are called "believe" religion is the path to God(The narrow path) however it is really the wide path of religion that leads to the wide gate of destruction.Eventually after all their religion is destroyed it leads to the narrow path and gate to the infinite green pasture field.Man by nature is religious.That must DIE.It is part of the process of growth.Immature become mature.

From this side it looks to be a strange road however it isn't.Gods purposes will be accomplished.There is NONE that can or has thwarted any of it.The first steps are faith...that leads to the running in the infinite green pasture of knowing.The Kingdom of God comes without observation.It is neither here nor there.It is IN your midst...Start stretching your legs ...it's a long trip.

reply to post by windword

I'm glad that you have a belief, even if that belief isn't the same as mine I respect you for it. I cannot prove my beliefs over your beliefs anymore then you can prove yours over mine. With that in mind however; its not really fair for you to pick apart my (or others) beliefs either. I cannot put faith in Gnostic writings as they have been proven by the early church (going back to at least Irenaeus) to have been Greek mysticism that certain groups were attempting to insert into Christianity, and thus inaccurate from a Christian perspective according to what was taught to Irenaeus through Polycarp from John the Apostle. If they work for you though, again, I cannot prove my writings hold any more authority then yours do.

...And at that we sort of have to leave it. I'll be happy to answer any questions from you, but our beliefs are never going to jive, and one really cannot be proven to be superior to the other with present knowledge.

Rex282
I completely understand why you feel this way.Religion is so convoluted it doesn't know which way is up or sideways. The fact is free will is a myth.The religious have no scriptural support for it at all.Like the many "doctrines" of men they make them up as they go along.

Deut. 30:11–19
Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live.

Sounds like he is telling them that how things turn out is based on their choices made of their “own free will” to me. Don't mistake the fact that there is Predestination and Foreknowledge to mean that there is no free will.

Rex282
There is no eternal punishment or annihilation or banishment of hell. There are VERY definitive words hell was translated from.The main one being Hades(new testament Greek) and Sheol (old testament Hebrew) they both mean..the grave,the realm of the dead ,the realm of imperception.

There is also Tartarus, Abussos (the Abyss), and Limne Pur (the lake of fire) to name a few. Revelations mentions that many are thrown into the lake of fire to experience the “second death”, but does that mean they are tortured for eternity or simply that they cease to exist? Punishment, being destroyed, or simply from being separated from God, the ultimate end of those who chose not to accept forgiveness is going to be less than pleasant.

Rex282
By the picture the religious paint of God he is beyond capricious ....he is a raving lunatic monster.As usual the translation/interpretation of the words betray what is being said.The blood thirsty good cop, bad cop God is fallacious.

The picture painted by the Roman Church is such, not by all Christians. The Church was of course using fear for control.

Rex282
Unfortunately your experience is the norm. The core of Christianity teaches an elitist mentality of "we are chosen" because we made a good choice" you are worthy of Gods derision because you didn't...oh btw.. Jesus loves you.

That is entirely not true, it teaches no such thing. That is not to say there are not elitist “pharisees” (false Christians) in the Church, but the Church itself teaches that we are all equally sinners and deserving of nothing good.

Rex282
It is an illicit license to have zero compassion for those that don't "believe" like them.

I don't know who you've been in contact with, but they aren't Christians.

Rex282
These are just more doctrine of men. The scriptures don't say 1/3 of the angels fell from heaven because of pride.

It's detailed in Pseudepigraphal texts, plus mentioned in allegory here:

Ezekiel 28:
You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. ...

That it was over pride:

1 Timothy 3:5
He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

His angels:

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 12:4-9
4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

It also mentions them being chained in the Abyss...

Rex282
Some Christian doctrines attribute that to "satan" and even go so far as to call "satan" the ruler of this world and say he is lucifer.All of that is completely false.

You know it might actually be helpful to you if you actually read the bible before making such remarks...

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

John 12:31-32
31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Then there is the fact that when Christ was tempted by Satan, he was offered the "kingdoms of the world", which were Satan's to offer.

Rex282
As for pride being the fall..there isn't even anything solid in the scriptures that says man fell!!...

Man didn't fall from pride, the angels did...
Man's fall from grace, not heaven, was from choosing Law over Grace.
This is considered the “fall of man from grace”:

22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Rex282
The Law is for lawless men.

No the “Law” applies to everyone not under “grace”, even the angels if you check the above quote.

reply to post by Rex282

As to the rest of your dislike of religion (church), I'd be careful because it is sanctified by Christ, and he is its head and “groom”.

Hebrews 10:24-25
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Acts 2:42
And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

The apostles formed the Church, and its lead and sanctified by Christ:

Acts 14:23
And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

Ephesians 1:22-23
22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Colossians 1:18
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Ephesians 5:23
23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

reply to post by defcon5

God does not want ANYONE to go to hell, no matter what they did, he is more merciful than that.

God's forgiveness is conditional, He chooses to let humans stray from Him. It's really quite simple. All God would have to do is manifest to everyone on Earth simultaneously and say:

"Hi, I'm God. Look, I love you, and I want you to come with Me to Heaven. Unfortunately, you have to make that choice by choosing to believe in me. So, this is a friendly visit from Me, God, to tell you that I have this wonderful place waiting for you, but, only if you accept My invitation."

The same thing that a new principal does at a school, or a candidate running for some kind of office, or a new store manager at a business. It's not that hard, if you want someone to do something, and you're an infinite God with infinite capabilities, then you simply come on down and let them know.

God chooses to play games with faith. He chooses not to manifest. He chooses to do all the things that cause people like myself, who are generally moral and good, to be condemned to the absence of His presence because of His own desire to play games with salvation.

In seeking to “rank” sin, you are only trying to prove to yourself that you are “better” then other sinners, when in fact you are a sinner just like 100% of the rest and worst of us.

Kind of, but not exactly. What I am trying to say is that not all crime is equal. The Holocaust was more evil then saying I have a red shirt on, when it is actually blue. And I don't think you yourself would deny this if put to the test.

If God came down and said:

"Hi Defcon, I want your advice on something. I have three sinners here: Adolf Hitler, the BTK Killer, and Wandering Scribe's neighbor Kayla. Unfortunately, I only have 1 spot left in Hell, so I can only send one of them there. So, here's the crimes they committed: Adolf Hitler killed more than six million people; the BTK Killer killed ten people; Kayla told her mom she didn't eat a cookie when she had. Who should I send to Hell?"

Would you really say: Send Kayla and let the BTK Killer and Hitler go?

If God's sense of justice is both moral and perfect, then this is a very real, and likely, scenario. If all sin is equal in God's eyes, then Kayla lying about having not eaten a cookie is as evil as what Hitler or the BTK killer did.

Now, you're free to believe that. I won't necessarily condemn you for it. But, I cannot accept that. I cannot accept a God who would treat Kayla as harshly for her offense as he would for Hitler's. This being because I truly, in my heart, believe there are levels to evil, and that one crime down not equal another. That a child's white lie is not as damaging as an adult's premeditated genocide.

I suspect we will disagree on this, and I'm fine with leaving it at that. I just hope you understand that I cannot accept a God whose view on life is as black-and-white as what I outlined above. I would rather not be in that being's presence, because it is neither good nor merciful, and certainly not loving.

~ Wandering Scribe

Wandering Scribe
God's forgiveness is conditional, He chooses to let humans stray from Him. It's really quite simple. All God would have to do is manifest to everyone on Earth simultaneously and say:

I believe that this falls under the “if God wanted more 'yes men' he'd make more angels” remark I made above. Otherwise why continue on with this world beyond the death of Christ? I don't claim to understand Gods plan's, I doubt any human can fathom them. He is in a unique position that we cannot relate too. His thoughts are as alien to us as ours would be to an amoeba’s.

Wandering Scribe
"Hi Defcon, I want your advice on something. I have three sinners here: Adolf Hitler, the BTK Killer, and Wandering Scribe's neighbor Kayla. Unfortunately, I only have 1 spot left in Hell, so I can only send one of them there. So, here's the crimes they committed: Adolf Hitler killed more than six million people; the BTK Killer killed ten people; Kayla told her mom she didn't eat a cookie when she had. Who should I send to Hell?"

Again though this is from mans perspective, not Gods.

So using your list, lets say that:
Adolf Hitler has a man sin score of -6 billion.
BTK has a -10 million.
Kayla has a -1

Fine in mans terms the answer here is obvious, but not so when it comes to God.

Adolf has a -6billion + -infinity for going against Gods will = -Infinity.
BTK has a -10 + -Infinity for going against Gods will +Infinity for being “saved” = 0.
Kayla has a -1 + -infinity for going against gods will = -Infinity.

Does that make sense?
To God the greatest crime is sin, or breaking his commands and going outside his will. What it is that you do specifically is a trivial matter to God, because the important thing is that went against him.

reply to post by defcon5

I believe that this falls under the “if God wanted more 'yes men' he'd make more angels” remark I made above.

I disagree.

I believe it would encourage both the use of free will, and the opportunity to be saved.

God is not forcing you to accept Him in my hypothetical speech. He is merely saying: here I am, and I am the evidence for what I ask of you."

Doing so does not negate my ability to deny God, as I can still respond with: "thanks for showing up, God. I appreciate the effort you went through to do so, but I still think Buddha is the better candidate."

Or, I could respond with: "thank you God, I really appreciate the effort You went through to come and talk to me personally, it shows how much You actually do care about me and the choices I make in life. I will definitely take this into consideration as I move forward."

Despite how absolutely corrupted the field is, consider politics. President Obama visited 47 states when touring for re-election. He won only 26 of them, which means almost half of the states he came to and said: "Hi, I'm your president" were not immediately made into "yes men".

Consider the amount of atheists, Hindus, pagans, Muslims, Catholics (since you don't believe they're Christian), Jews, and agnostics on Earth. By what stretch of the imagination do you believe a manifestation from God would automatically make every single one of them convert? They already do not believe in your God, and they have as much (and often the same) "evidence" for their belief as you do for your's.

I don't claim to understand Gods plan's, I doubt any human can fathom them. He is in a unique position that we cannot relate too. His thoughts are as alien to us as ours would be to an amoeba’s.

If God's mind, and God's thoughts, were truly unknowable to us, how could we know that He wants faith, or that He ordained Jesus Christ as a sacrifice for our sins?

It takes special pleading to say that we can understand those thoughts, but not others.

If you read the Bible with even the most basic ability to interpret language, I think it's fairly easy to determine God's thoughts, His will, what He does or does not want of you, and so on, and so forth.

On the other hand though, because there are 2 billion Christians out there, in about 41,000 different denominations based on the same religious book... maybe you're right. Maybe none of you know what God wants. In that case, perhaps it would be best if you all just stopped trying, and put your effort into something that might actually result in some kind of conclusive answer.

Again though this is from mans perspective, not Gods.

Then man's perspective is right.

There is more morality, justice, benevolence, love, forgiveness, and opportunity for salvation and redemption in man's justice than there is in God's.

~ Wandering Scribe