The big bad Bible

Well I think I'm in the right forum.
I just wanted to briefly talk about the theology of Martin Luther. His theology has heavily influenced Christianity since the conception of the King James Bible. The bible itself was written mostly by William Tyndale under the direct guidance of Martin Luther. If Martin Luther introduced his own theology to the bible, then how authentic can we presume the texts to be? There are of course conspiracy theories about Martin Luther being an illuminati, but I ask this question also because of my own experience with the church. I always has difficulty grasping Luther's concept of "you are saved by faith alone," and that my best and worst deeds mean absolutely nothing to God, or that I'm worse than I know, but am washed clean by the blood of Jesus. These concepts confused me. I recall questioning my youth pastor about bible content, and after awhile he said it was just something I had to "wrestle with." This, of course, confused me even more. One might think that God would channel down manuscripts that were clear and concise.

I also wanted to mention the famous conspiracy theory about the Council of Nicea. Naysayers disregard it as garbage, claiming that the council was created to simply "affirm what was already known." But I remain suspicious. We get the gist of what happens today when the douche bags gather together for their councils, meetings, summits etc... it would've been different back then?

On that day when Jesus magically fed 5000 people, its to bad he couldn't also have magically created 5000 indestructible bibles for the peasants as well.

reply to post by Tucket

The Just , ..Shall live ,..By faith ...Its not by any works we have done ..It really is hard for us to get our minds around and keep it there ..If the blood of Jesus Christ was not sufficient enough to redeem us to God then what kind of works would be ..Some think that prayer beads are needed but wouldn't that mean that Jesus is not enough ..

I am putting my trust in the Son of God and what He accomplished on the cross ..My best is like filthy rags before a righteous God .....peace

reply to post by Tucket


It is in how you read the bible man, we each have our personal relationship with God.

Jesus has died for you, and he had you in mind at his death as he thought of all these children. It was all out of love and to save us and we are so entirely unable to conceive this.

It breaks my heart to forget what this means. It is the pain of my heart to not know the true value of his blood.

It is so immense that it forgives and forgets our sins no matter how great. It is such a great forgiveness that it is almost unbearable to accept such an offer, but his sweetness is the desire for our soul, and it is God's desire for us to have his love. That desire goes infinitely beyond death, beyond pain, beyond hatred.

When we are the closest to God in our hearts we understand how far from him we truly are. And the tears that come to us is from seeing him reach all the way across that infinite distance to reach his children.

Tucket
Well I think I'm in the right forum.
I just wanted to briefly talk about the theology of Martin Luther. His theology has heavily influenced Christianity since the conception of the King James Bible. The bible itself was written mostly by William Tyndale under the direct guidance of Martin Luther. If Martin Luther introduced his own theology to the bible, then how authentic can we presume the texts to be? There are of course conspiracy theories about Martin Luther being an illuminati, but I ask this question also because of my own experience with the church. I always has difficulty grasping Luther's concept of "you are saved by faith alone," and that my best and worst deeds mean absolutely nothing to God, or that I'm worse than I know, but am washed clean by the blood of Jesus. These concepts confused me. I recall questioning my youth pastor about bible content, and after awhile he said it was just something I had to "wrestle with." This, of course, confused me even more. One might think that God would channel down manuscripts that were clear and concise.

I also wanted to mention the famous conspiracy theory about the Council of Nicea. Naysayers disregard it as garbage, claiming that the council was created to simply "affirm what was already known." But I remain suspicious. We get the gist of what happens today when the douche bags gather together for their councils, meetings, summits etc... it would've been different back then?

On that day when Jesus magically fed 5000 people, its to bad he couldn't also have magically created 5000 indestructible bibles for the peasants as well.

Well... You raise a valid point about Martin Luther's translation of the Bible being biased by his own theology.

This is why a concordance is heavily recommended... If you are diligent enough, the resources are all there...

Plus, all these questions that you raise about the authenticity of the bible are good ones. Being skeptical is a good thing... Question everything... Even your own thoughts... Question the validity of my words. Never assume. Test everything.

To finalize, why all the inconsistencies? Is it actually an inconsistency? If it is, why would God allow all those inconsistencies?


EDIT: Tuckett, I don't really like the euphemism that others say when talking about Jesus. Why? Because... What it does mean? What does it mean that Jesus died for us? Why did he have to die? What did his death do? I think this is information that people in the know know... What does it mean when his blood cleanses us? I can't stand the jargon because i don't think the modern person can really understand... Words and idioms change over time... Does the words in Aramiac/Hebrew/Greek convey the same meaning as it does today, or when the KJV was translated?

reply to post by Tucket I always has difficulty grasping Luther's concept of "you are saved by faith alone," and that my best and worst deeds mean absolutely nothing to God, or that I'm worse than I know, but am washed clean by the blood of Jesus. These concepts confused me.


Tucket, you are so right to question these statements of belief! For one, check on the true name of the Son of God. *hint* It isn't Jesus.

Secondly, ask yourself, 'Faith in what?' *lol* A mythical version of the true Son of God and therefore a non-existent 'Jesus'?

So the next question would be, ''Where does that leave Christianity and the Christian churches?' Take a peek at where the Bible describes Satan APPEARING as 'an angel of light and followers as ministers of righteousness [sic]'. 2 Corinthians 11:15

Sorry if I am being obscure, but you most probably wouldn't believe me if I told you all the answers. *sigh* But keep on asking these sorts of questions, and seeking, and you WILL find the answers. I know, because I did!

reply to post by Tucket


Our Heavenly Father spoke the universe into existence. If God we're just someones
imagination or a fairytale, this is what I would imagine his capability would be.
If you want to say or think or believe there is no higher existence than man.
Feel free. I don't believe that, never will. God said let there be light and there
was light. But you're going to tell me he isn't capable of getting a message to us?
Intact ?

reply to post by the2ofusr1

The Just , ..Shall live ,..By faith ...Its not by any works we have done ..It really is hard for us to get our minds around and keep it there ..If the blood of Jesus Christ was not sufficient enough to redeem us to God then what kind of works would be ..Some think that prayer beads are needed but wouldn't that mean that Jesus is not enough ..

I am putting my trust in the Son of God and what He accomplished on the cross ..My best is like filthy rags before a righteous God .....peace

This is exactly why I have a problem with the Christian ideology.

A murderer, rapist, or war criminal who ravishes the Earth, enslaves his fellow man, kills women and children, uses chemical weapons, and pillages the land he assaults, but devoutly believes in his heart that Jesus Christ was and is the savior of man, will gain admittance into Heaven, despite his worldly actions.

Yet, a philanthropist, who provides medicine and shelter for the sick, who donates to help find cures for disease, who funds schools, adopts orphans, and does not judge anyone as lesser than himself, but lacks belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, is going to be condemned to an eternity in Hell.

If our works do not matter, then what motivation is there to be good, kind, caring, loving people? If you can wholeheartedly believe in Jesus Christ, and be the most bigoted, racist, vile, cruel person alive but still gain admittance to Heaven, why not be evil?

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe
Good points but Jesus said He didn't come to save the righteous but the unrighteous . I fit into the latter group and I suppose that you are righteous enough to stand before God and tell him all of the good things you have done . Good luck with that . I on the other hand miss God's mark of perfectness, and except the salvation He has provided for me in the sacrifice of His only begotten Son ....peace

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

If you can wholeheartedly believe in Jesus Christ, and be the most bigoted, racist, vile, cruel person alive but still gain admittance to Heaven, why not be evil?

Your real problem is you don't even understand that this is impossible.
No one can serve two masters. What's you're next excuse ?
And the thread is about Martin Luther.
Back to the topic.

I never said that I don't believe in God. I never said that his message can't be understood. I'm just saying that I think that dogma and obscurity contained in the bible can deceive people. The truth is there of course. But do we need all this scripture to come to God? What if the bible was a small booklet that only contained the teachings of Jesus?

Yes you are being obscure!!! Just like a big bad book I once read

reply to post by randyvs

Your real problem is you don't even understand that this is impossible.

It is impossible to be evil and believe in God? Adolf Hitler. Pedro Alonzo Lopez. The BTK killer. All of them were immensely evil, and, in their hearts, believed Jesus was the Son of God and savior of man. By Christian doctrine, they are in Heaven right now (except maybe Hitler, who killed himself. Although, that's Catholic dogma, and I know Christians have a hard time deciding whether Catholics are, or aren't, "true" Christians).

No one can serve two masters. What's you're next excuse?

This is irrelevant to the topic. Your works do not matter, only your faith. You could never attend Church, spit on priests, burn crosses, and kill babies, but still have faith in Jesus and go to Heaven.

And the thread is about Martin Luther.
Back to the topic.

Martin Luther said your works don't matter.

So I am pointing out that if, as Martin Luther said, your works don't matter, than anyone can get into Heaven free by simply accepting Jesus Christ, and they can be as evil as they want because faith is the only requirement.

Completely on topic.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Tucket


Dogma is religion. I agree we don't need religion. We need Christ.
I don't mind going to a church that has a good worship once in awhile.
But I subscribe to no certain one at all. And no one interprets the
Bible for me. I listen to Bible studies when they get my attention.
This how I let God move in my life and show me the message he
wants me to have. Most of all I strive to understand him. And
I'm at a place where I have stopped questioning completely.
And it feels great.



reply to post by Wandering Scribe

It is impossible to be evil and believe in God?

Not what I said at all. Was Hitler born again ? No. Did he have Christ in his heart ? No.
None of the people you mentioned did. And my retort is relevent to your reply
because you can't possibly have Christ as your master and not despise evil.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

The word of God teaches that not many good are saved .It does not teach that not any good are saved . I guess it comes down to who is doing the saving and what they require to be saved .Gods only condition is that a person believe on The Lord Jesus Christ . I am thinking that there are a lot of bad people that will not be saved .and that there will be some good people saved ,but all will be justified not by their works but by the one condition God has made . Now a person can debate whether God is just in doing this but I kind of think that it's a level playing field to choose to believe God or not . Sounds fair to a good person and sounds wonderful to a bad person ...peace

reply to post by backcase

That is a very great expression of a born-again Christian. Thank you for your expression of your understanding of the love and saving grace of Jesus.

Regarding the other arguments about evil believers entering heaven, let's reconsider that construct. The born-again believer understands that the foundational belief in Jesus requires that all followers are known by their love one for another. I doubt you would categorize these evil maniacs as believers based on that one criterion: love one for another.

In reality, the born-again believer realizes that God Himself sacrificed Himself on the cross for that believer, as an act of love and as a friend and brother and fellow son of God. In the heart of the born-again believer, that believer would not do anything to cause any kind of pain to that God who has done so much for him, just as you would not harm someone who had saved your life. To harm others is to harm Him, to serve others is to serve Him. The true born-again believer lives with these thoughts in mind daily. The true believer does not sin so that he may be saved by more grace, but instead shuns evil, tries to be strong enough in himself to resist temptation, but all the while realizes that he does not have the strength alone to live in this world and completely avoid sin. He falls on his face at the feet of Jesus and humbly begs for help and forgiveness.

See the difference in the mindset? Truly, today there are a lot of self-proclaimed Christians who are not living as Christians. I suppose that is why Jesus criticized them for relying on their works in the NT.

well it all is what it is, and we are what we are living in this world, there's no changing it. It is the way it is for reasons we can't easily understand, nor are meant to understand. We are wise when we recognize how powerless we are as humans and start to recognize the power of a Creator who gave us all this, and our very lives to live and enjoy. to start questioning it is stupid. It's less than an ant questioning why a human is spraying the ant hive with bug spray. We can do what ever we want to an Ant. They can't say jack. We're like that, only we are ever so fortunate that God loves us. But if you're constantly getting out of line and asking questions that there's really no answers to, not trusting God, not having faith. Well maybe hell pick you up like a little bug and rip off a couple of your legs and then throw you back, and watch how you cope. He can do whatever he wants. He's God. We're just lowly humans. Be fortunate that we have at least something that helps explain him to us. Do we know if the bible is perfect? Well using faith yes. using some opinions of worldly atheists oh sure, it's all wrong according to them. But in my mind at least I have something. And that something gives me the basis to at least know how to pray and understand my place in the universe, and it keeps you humble and trusting. The bottom line is when we die, we'll go and find out now won't we? And when that happens if there is an after life, and I believe there will be one I want to at least be as ready as I can be.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


Satan believes in God. Something tells me he's doomed.

Martin Luther said your works don't matter.

Martin Luther wasn't the first to say it. And why would they matter ?
I'm glad they don't. Because my sins would break the scales in heaven
and send all my good works fly'in. And that goes for every man.
Some of us just realise it.

reply to post by spartacus699

Quite right, and it is more comforting to believe that there is an afterlife than to suppose that there is not. I am happy that God has shown His love for me, prior to my having to go into an afterlife. Kinda nice to know He's a good guy, you might say. How bad can it be for a believer if God was willing to take the cross for him? I suppose heaven is a pretty doggone great place. After all, Jesus has had 2000 years to create a place for us. Considering He made the Universe in 6 days, I think heaven will be incredibly wonderful and full of love.

reply to post by randyvs


Satan does not believe, he has sure knowledge. With that sure knowledge, he has chosen to destroy the works of God while he has time. Given any opportunity, he will come in and try to change things for the worse. This malcontent and his actions works into God's plan, as unbelievers need to be brought back to belief. This is sometimes achieved by "giving them up to the buffetings of Satan" so to speak. When they get to the end of their rope, they may return, like the prodigal son who got fed up with the way his life was going.

You may have heard the expression "let go, and let God" or such. Some must get to the end of their rope before they realize that they have done poorly in handling their own estate, and need the divine intervention of a wise and caring God to straighten things up.

reply to post by Jim Scott


just another day in the life of the world according to an atheist. oh joy