I Finally Understand Why Abortion Can't Be Discussed Logically.

Quadrivium
reply to post by windword

 

I believe you and I have had this discussion on another thread.

Yes, just like the anti-evolution crowd, the same intellectually dishonest arguments keep popping up in anti-choice threads, and I find I have to repeat myself. It takes a lot patience, but I think it's a worthy cause.

Life absolutely does begin at conception.

There is no special "life fairy" that bestows life on something that's lifeless. Life is cycle.

A new human life with their own unique DNA. This "mass of cells" (as some refer to it) has neither the DNA of the Mother or the Father. IT IS A NEW HUMAN LIFE.

Not yet it isn't. It's a potential human life!

How can you continue to deny this?

Easy. Because the argument "life begins at conception" doesn't become true because it's repeated over and over.

As for the video, it is the same one you posted on another thread a year or so ago.
Perhaps YOU should pick up a text book or enroll a at community college for biology 101. At least find some new material.

Why? It's a great scholarly video from, Yale University, that puts the truth out there within the first few minutes. Just because you've heard it before, doesn't make it invalid. In fact, because you've heard it before, you're the one that's in denial and in need of some new material.

stormdancer777
Instead of embracing the magic that is life, as new understanding through science and technology emerge, we diminish it.

The more science reveals the more awe-inspiring this new knowledge becomes, it doesn't lessen spirituality it only makes me that much more inspired, that each human being has purpose,

The farther we get away from the source, the less humane we become.

edit on 043030p://bTuesday2013 by stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)

Hmmmm - what kind of magic is it that makes half of all fertilized eggs spontaneously die? According to nature (or God), fertilized eggs appear to be a dime a dozen, and not all that important.

windword

stormdancer777
embryology textbooks are unanimous: life begins at fertilization.

There no such thing as a "life fairy" that suddenly bestows life on an otherwise lifeless thing.

No fairy's just reality. Anything biological that is growing is alive. Find me one example of something from biological origin that is growing yet not considered to be alive. You won't find any..

This video, a Yale lecture on Biology and the History of Abortion, explains the error of this "life begins at conception" postulate within the first few minutes. Life is a cycle, with no start point. Fertilization is merely an event in the cycle.

Hogwash and shame on you for continuing your nonsensical arguments. Fertilization is merely an event in the cycle?? Fertilization is what initiates human life.. You can have all the cycles you want and believe in all the nonsensical beliefs you want but the reality is once an egg is fertilized it begins growing, it begins it's life as a human.

reply to post by libertytoall

No fairy's just reality. Anything biological that is growing is alive. Find me one example of something from biological origin that is growing yet not considered to be alive. You won't find any..

Apparently, you have a reading or listening comprehension problem.

This video, a Yale lecture on Biology and the History of Abortion, explains the error of this "life begins at conception" postulate within the first few minutes. Life is a cycle, with no start point. Fertilization is merely an event in the cycle.

Hogwash and shame on you for continuing your nonsensical arguments. Fertilization is merely an event in the cycle?? Fertilization is what initiates human life..

What is your definition of life? Oh yeah, Something growing....so an eye lash is alive, but a skin cell isn't?

You can have all the cycles you want and believe in all the nonsensical beliefs you want but the reality is once an egg is fertilized it begins growing, it begins it's life as a human.

Do you think the fertilized egg grows bigger? Do you think that a woman's egg before fertilization isn't human?

reply to post by windword

There is no special "life fairy" that bestows life on something that's lifeless. Life is cycle.

Really!?! The "life fairy" argument yet again?!?
Please look at your statement above. As you will see you are contradicting yourself.
"There is no special "life fairy" that bestows life on something that's lifeless"
And yet you go on to say........
"life is cycle".
Life is a cycle and that cycle begins at conception. A human being's developmental cycle begins at conception.
Would you be here now if that conception had not taken place at the beginning of your life cycle?
NO!
That would have only been possible with your "life fairy" which does not exsist.
Do honestly believe that your developmental cycle did not begin until you took your first breath outside of the womb? Do you really believe that?

reply to post by Quadrivium

Would you be here now if that conception had not taken place at the beginning of your life cycle?

Another stupid argument that is a fall back for bible thumpers and idiots alike.

If I wasn't here I wouldn't be able to regret not being here.

Quadrivium
reply to post by windword

 

There is no special "life fairy" that bestows life on something that's lifeless. Life is cycle.

Really!?! The "life fairy" argument yet again?!?
Please look at your statement above. As you will see you are contradicting yourself.
"There is no special "life fairy" that bestows life on something that's lifeless"
And yet you go on to say........
"life is cycle".
Life is a cycle and that cycle begins at conception. A human being's developmental cycle begins at conception.
Would you be here now if that conception had not taken place at the beginning of your life cycle?
NO!
That would have only been possible with your "life fairy" which does not exsist.
Do honestly believe that your developmental cycle did not begin until you took your first breath outside of the womb? Do you really believe that?

Checkmate.

reply to post by Quadrivium


I'm sorry Quad, but that's incorrect. It's a very simplistic view of a very complex set of circumstances and chemical reactions that have to happen in order for the final result, a human being, to be realized. Fertilization is not the first event, or even the most important event, in the reproduction cycle.

Wertdagf
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

Would you be here now if that conception had not taken place at the beginning of your life cycle?

Another stupid argument that is a fall back for bible thumpers and idiots alike.

If I wasn't here I wouldn't be able to regret not being here.

Now THAT is a total illogical an stupid argument.
That's like saying "if someone kills me in my sleep, they didn't do anything wrong because I didn't know I died".
Quad

windword
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

I'm sorry Quad, but that's incorrect. It's a very simplistic view of a very complex set of circumstances and chemical reactions that have to happen in order for the final result, a human being, to be realized. Fertilization is not the first event, or even the most important event, in the reproduction cycle.

I am sorry as well Windword, because you have no argument for my previous post.
Your above post shows me that.

reply to post by charles1952


Some seers say, through channelling, that if a woman intends to abort - a soul will not enter into the fetus.

reply to post by Quadrivium


The fact that you refuse to acknowledge the scientific facts, doesn't make them invalid or untrue. There is absolutely NO science to back up the claim that "life begins at conception". No matter how much you wish it to be true, it just isn't.

First of all after 17 pages of this horse manure, there is no one that is pro-abortion. A misnomer of the far right wing religious nuts that want to paint libertarians and liberals as the devil. To the so called libertarians who are pro life, what gives you the right to place rules on a woman's body. To the religious nuts, please go to church, and pray for, and adopt all of the unwanted children you want protected. Also please donate to a worthy cause, your pastor doesn't need another rolex.

windword
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge the scientific facts, doesn't make them invalid or untrue. There is absolutely NO science to back up the claim that "life begins at conception". No matter how much you wish it to be true, it just isn't.

edit on 17-9-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

The evidence is everywhere. You just refuse to see it Windword.
30 seconds on google and you might understand how wrong you are.

Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]
*"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception)."Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of theirpronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]
*"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]
*"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]
*"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]
*"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]
*"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]
*"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]
*"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]
*"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]
*"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]
*"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."[O'Rahilly, Ronan and M�ller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12]]
*"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]

www.princeton.edu...

Quadrivium

windword
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge the scientific facts, doesn't make them invalid or untrue. There is absolutely NO science to back up the claim that "life begins at conception". No matter how much you wish it to be true, it just isn't.

edit on 17-9-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

The evidence is everywhere. You just refuse to see it Windword.
30 seconds on google and you might understand how wrong you are.

Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]
*"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception)."Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of theirpronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]
*"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]
*"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]
*"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]
*"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]
*"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]
*"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]
*"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]
*"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]
*"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]
*"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."[O'Rahilly, Ronan and M�ller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12]]
*"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]

www.princeton.edu...

edit on 17-9-2013 by Quadrivium because: (no reason given)

and you have never started something that you then realized was a bad idea?

reply to post by BubbaJoe


The real issue here is if the fetus has a soul that must be saved...if one belives that a soul is ever lasting and chooses, then there's your answer.

reply to post by windword


Potential Human Life...? Are you serious? Please, PLEASE show me an example of ANYTHING other then a HUMAN that has been born of a HUMAN FEMALE! It IS a HUMAN LIFE....

InTheLight
reply to post by BubbaJoe

 

The real issue here is if the fetus has a soul that must be saved...if one belives that a soul is ever lasting and chooses, then there's your answer.

I am not sure I believe in a soul (that is biblical), I believe most things have a spirit, and I can embrace those spirits. Being male, I have never been placed in the position of ending an pregnancy. I believe women should have the right up to a certain point, and yes the father if he is involved. I am pretty libertarian on personal rights.

BubbaJoe

Quadrivium

windword
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge the scientific facts, doesn't make them invalid or untrue. There is absolutely NO science to back up the claim that "life begins at conception". No matter how much you wish it to be true, it just isn't.

edit on 17-9-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

The evidence is everywhere. You just refuse to see it Windword.
30 seconds on google and you might understand how wrong you are.

Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]
*"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception)."Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of theirpronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]
*"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]
*"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]
*"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]
*"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]
*"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]
*"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]
*"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]
*"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]
*"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]
*"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."[O'Rahilly, Ronan and M�ller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12]]
*"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]

www.princeton.edu...

edit on 17-9-2013 by Quadrivium because: (no reason given)

and you have never started something that you then realized was a bad idea?

Of course, yet what do you do when you realize it was a bad idea? Do you continue down that road or change course?

reply to post by Quadrivium


That's great! You found all kinds of quotes that state that embryonic development of a human being begins after fertilization! Yet, I saw nothing about implantation, a critical event that MUST happen BEFORE embryonic development.

According to the American Medical Association, a woman isn't pregnant until implantation has occurred. Even then, there is no guarantee that the process will yield a human being.

You still can't claim that life begins at conception. It doesn't.