The Third Secret of Fatima and the "Black Pope".

reply to post by YodHeVauHe
[more

the aforementioned non-believers, atheists, and Catholic bashers are already sharpening their respective 'blades' prompted by an inordinate desire to malign our pope in particular, and the Church in general

Be careful whom you label and judge without knowing. You make suppositions without knowing the heart or mind of ANYONE posting in this thread- which goes against the very beliefs you attempt to rest your laurels on. This is a place for respectful debate- not a place for shoving your perception of the truth down the throats of others..... that is the only disrespect I have witnessed in this thread. No one has bashed the Pope or the RCC, only speculated as to the accuracies or inaccuracies of prophecies that may or may not involve them. That is what this place is for, to question and debate respectfully- to learn and to teach- not yell how you are so pious and right and everyone who doesn't believe the same is a non-believing Atheist Catholic basher. Deny Ignorance friend!

reply to post by YodHeVauHe

As for the propositions laid forth in this thread with respect to the so-called Malachy prophecies and the alleged "Black Pope:" Much to the chagrin of many non-believers, atheists, and Catholic bashers alike there is NO so-called "Black Pope." Its a disparaging term invented to malign the Jesuit Order - therefore its nothing but a mythic construct deserving of no attention whatsoever, and the same goes for the so-called prophecies of Saint Malachy.

The "black Pope" I was referencing was the supposed last pope predicted by Nostradamus/St. malachy. I should have made that clear in my OP, I figured frequenters of this forum would know what I was talking about. I am in no way trying to insult the current pope for being a Jesuit.

As for those same fraudulent prophecies - please be aware that the aforementioned non-believers, atheists, and Catholic bashers are already sharpening their respective 'blades' prompted by an inordinate desire to malign our pope in particular, and the Church in general by referring people to those so-called prophecies (they're not prophesies at all, but an outright forgeries proven to be so by the Church) according to which (depending on one's interpretation) there remains only one pope after Benedict XVI, a pope who will be known as Peter the Roman. Please keep in mind that the Church never has accepted this purported prophecy as true in any way, shape or form. It undoubtedly is a absolute forgery. Supposedly the prophecy was made around 1139 by St. Malachy, but the prophecy was unknown until 1595 and seems to have been concocted to influence a papal election of that era. In other words, give no weight to it and derive no anxiety from it.

There is not just St. Malachy and the like, there are many people (including popes and saints) that talk of the final spostasy in the church. Many of them are quite clear that it starts at the top. Even many of the Catholic higher ups state that the 3rd secret of fatima has to do with the downfall of the RCC. Maybe that is why many people (myself included) believe that the real 3rd secret was never really released, becasue it foretold the downfall of the Catholic church.

J. Cardinal Ratzinger:
J. Cardinal Ratzinger Yes, I have read [the Third Secret]. [It refers to] a radical call to conversion; the absolute seriousness of history; the dangers which threaten the faith and the life of the Christian and therefore (the life) of the world (Jesus, November 11, 1984).

Pope Pius XII personally sent Fr. Schweigle to interrogate Sr. Lucia about the Third Secret in 1952.

Fr. J. Schweigl:
I cannot reveal anything of what I learned at Fatima concerning the Third Secret, but I can say that it has two parts: one concerns the Pope; the other logically (although I must say nothing) would have to be the continuation of the words: “In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved” (The Whole Truth about Fatima, Vol. III, p. 74).

Fr. Alonso was the official archivist of Fatima, 1965—1981.

Fr. J. Alonso:
Fr. Joaquin AlonsoIn the period preceding the great triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, terrible things are to happen. These form the content of the third part of the Secret. What are they? If “in Portugal the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved,”…it can be clearly deduced from this that in other parts of the Church these dogmas are going to become obscure or even lost altogether…. Perhaps it even refers to the failures of the upper hierarchy of the Church.

Cardinal Ottaviani was the head of the Holy Office. He interrogated Sister Lucia in 1955.

S. Cardinal Ottaviani:
Cardinal OttavianiThe message was not to be opened before 1960. I asked Sister Lucia, “Why this date?” She answered, “Because then it will be clearer.”

Personal communication to a Professor Baumgartner in Salzburg, Austria. Card. Ciappi was the Papal Theologian of Pope John Paul II.

L. Cardinal Ciappi:
Cardinal CiappiIn the Third Secret, it is foretold, among other things, that the great apostasy in the Church will begin at the top.

Cardinal Pacelli became Pope Pious XII.

E. Cardinal Pacelli:
Pope Pius XIII am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul…. I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her ornaments and make her feel remorse for her historical past.
A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken Him?”

if you want to dismiss St. Malachy, thats fine, but what of all of the other prophecies (from priests, popes, and saints even the Bible) that talk of this same falling away? And how "true believers" will go underground. Are they all irrelevant because one prophetic work has been debunked?

reply to post by LittleBlackEagle


So, you claim that you don't need the church to find Jesus, and now you're saying that you dismiss the Bible as well? What's left, is he going to tap you on the shoulder?

In a discussion regarding Christianity, as soon as someone rejects the Bible as a source of information on Christ, the discussion is over, because there is nothing else to turn to.

adjensen
reply to post by LittleBlackEagle

 

So, you claim that you don't need the church to find Jesus, and now you're saying that you dismiss the Bible as well? What's left, is he going to tap you on the shoulder?

In a discussion regarding Christianity, as soon as someone rejects the Bible as a source of information on Christ, the discussion is over, because there is nothing else to turn to.

perhaps for you, yes.

the bible, like any other man made document, is subject to manipulation. i realize that puts a damper on your belief system, but it's the truth, like it or not.

do you dismiss the Agnostics, gospel of Thomas, Mary and Judas as well?

i look around this world and what i see is discouraging at best, we have used your version of the bible for several thousand years, your version of the Qur'an, your version of the torah and how well it has worked out for being a "holy" un altered righteous set of books.

what i reject is lies and deceit, something the churches of the world today are over flowing with and not even you can deny that.

God lives in my house, Jesus as well, i don't need or want your house, it stinks to high heaven of treachery and needs a thorough cleaning.

why should pope Francis re-consecrate the world on OCt 13, 3013, if the world is already consecrated in 1984? Whats behind that move.

reply to post by 2012newstart

sorry 2013 of course.

Please see post below this one............there was a doubled post.

reply to post by Cancerwarrior

All well and good - but please recall the title and the content of the thread itself as it refers to the false Malachy material as well as the alleged Black Pope and it was to that that I responded and it was to those two subjects that my remarks were directed.

reply to post by littled16

All that I have to say to you is that I did nothing of the kind regarding the accusatory content of your post, which I interpret to be malicious in nature. You obviously have axes to grind against persons of faith, but because of that very same faith your angry comments have NO effect whatsoever - neither on me nor on other believers responding to this thread.

LittleBlackEagle
do you dismiss the Agnostics, gospel of Thomas, Mary and Judas as well?

I assume that you mean Gnostics, and yes, I've spent a lot of time studying them, as well as the early Christian landscape in general, and no, I put absolutely no faith in their perspective. Gnosticism pre-dates Christianity by several hundred years (it's the religious take on Platonism) and Gnostic Christianity was an effort to combine two diametrically opposed religious systems, Judaism and Gnosticism, because you had a number of Greek Christian converts who just didn't want to let go of dualism.

We can trace its roots back to an orthodox Christian bishop from around 150AD, Valentinus, who was voted down for Pope (for whatever reason) and said "to heck with you guys, I'm going to start my own religion." In a very real sense, they were the Scientologists of the Second Century.

Cancerwarrior
reply to post by littled16

 

He showed up to World Youth Day in Rio de Janeiro, not in the imposing Popemobile, but in the back of a rental car. He’s not above taking a selfie with the kids. He plans on driving a used car around town. And he’s urged others to do the same: ”It hurts me when I see a priest or a nun with the latest model car. A car is necessary to do a lot of work, but please, choose a more humble one. If you like the fancy one, just think about how many children are dying of hunger in the world.”

In regards to this .. not saying I believe one way or the other .. but this would be the perfect way for the "head injury" to happen and the "antichrist" to "die and come alive again".

YodHeVauHe
reply to post by littled16

 

All that I have to say to you is that I did nothing of the kind regarding the accusatory content of your post, which I interpret to be malicious in nature. You obviously have axes to grind against persons of faith, but because of that very same faith your angry comments have NO effect whatsoever - neither on me nor on other believers responding to this thread.

Really? I'm not angry at persons of faith or religion- I am a person of faith, which just goes to show how quick you are to judgement.... Tsk,tsk! You were the one who basically accused all those participating in this thread other than yourself of being non-religious Atheist Catholic bashers without knowing anyone you're labeling- if anything THAT is what is malicious in nature, not questioning Papal Prophecy. It is very obvious who has an axe to grind here... and it's not me. The only thing I'm guilty of is being willing to discuss the possibility of it all and maybe of pointing out a bit of hypocricy.

reply to post by adjensen


Yes, more Paulian BS. Jesus said, he came to fulfill the law and not one jot nor tittle would pass from it until all was fulfilled and heaven and earth should pass away. We are grafted into the house of Israel by believing in Yeshua, and the apostles continued to observe the feasts after Messiah left.

I am surprised you cannot pick up that Paul taught a different gospel, did not know Messiah and was rejected in Asia which notable the Church at Ephesus was praised by God in Revelation for rejecting those who claim to be apostles and are not. There are 12 thrones for the apostles spoken of in Revelation. Paul was not one of the 12 and he is a liar, twister of truth and has caused all the division in the body of Messiah.

Read: Paul's gospel vs. Jesus Gospel

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


Well, you're welcome to seek salvation in the Law -- I'll have mine through Christ

There's only one Commandment that isn't repeated in the New Testament, and Christ himself said that there were only two Commandments, neither of which was "worship God during this specific 24 hour period, or you're doomed."

Why in the world does the Vatican have a telescope called L.U.C.I.F.E.R. ?

They chose that acronym for a reason, and it's very sick imho. The Catholic church is guilty of much, and has subjugated the world for eons now. They did all they could to remove the Jewishness out of the Christian faith. Their little tent making son of Cain, Paul, is one of the reasons they are the way they are. Constantine found a way to bring many religions under one big umbrella, and once control was gained they absorbed the pagan rituals to pacify the people, gain more political control, and have continued to this day playing the ecumenical limp wristed methodology.

I respect my Muslim brothers and sisters much more than I do those who change the word of God to suit their views. The Pope has now come out and actually said you don't even have to believe in God to go to heaven. That is so anti-biblical it's ridiculous. I mean, I am no one's judge, but don't claim to be a Christian, let alone God's representative on earth and say you don't need to believe in God to go to heaven.

This church is an abomination.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

Why in the world does the Vatican have a telescope called L.U.C.I.F.E.R. ?

You know that Lucifer means "Morning Star", right? And that, in the Bible, it is used in reference to the King of Babylon, not Satan, right?

Until people started confusing the name with the Devil in the Middle Ages, for which there is no basis for association, there were people named Lucifer, because it didn't mean anything, and still doesn't.

reply to post by adjensen


Faith without works is dead. You say you have faith, but I show my faith by my works.... sound familiar?

No man can earn their salvation for it is a free gift through faith in Yeshua, but what did Yeshua do? What is the NEW Testament? What was the Old Testament? I love how they love to do little word changes. It's the New Covenant bought by the shed blood of Yeshua ha Mashiach as opposed to the Old Covenant initiated between God and Abraham and the blood of animals. We are told of this New Covenant:

Jer 31:33 "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

So, we have Yeshua saying he will not change on tiniest part of the Law, and we have been promised a new covenant that is the same as the old, but this time instead of being written on stone, it's written on our hearts. It is there because of the gift of faith and following in the footsteps of Messiah.

What did Yeshua say?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

We have Yeshua quoting the ten commandments!

Yeshua knew what was required and it came down to what is in our hearts. What we put before God, and in this case, the young man was rich. Yeshua told him to go sell all his possessions give to the poor and follow him. It was not a mandate of everyone to give way everything, but Yeshua knew what was blocking THIS man.

I submit to you, that we want what we want as believers and we don't want to keep God's commandments, so we latch onto Paul's words as if they have more weight that Yeshua's! Yeshua put life above all, and he dealt with the unbending Pharisees who would rather see a donkey die than work on Sabbath. But, nowhere does Yeshua say to not observe it or to change it to a day you prefer. Yeshua observed all the feasts of the Lord, and we are told to follow in His example.

In Revelation we see,

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

When did people turn away from Paul? Paul even tells us that Asia did:

2Ti 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me;

Yeshua warned of this one coming in their own name whom they would accept. He warned over and over about the false ones.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Paul loves his name, he writes his letters boldly, “I Paul” “I the Apostle Paul” “I the appointed Apostle” and he dispenses his instructions which are 90 to 95 % in line with the word of God, but then he puts in his twists. What sort of twists? Let’s examine the differences in the teachings of Yeshua / Jesus and Saul:


Jesus Says Not To Eat Meat Sacrificed to Idols, But Paul Says It Is Ok

Three times Jesus in the Book of Revelation condemns eating meat sacrificed to idols, even saying this is the doctrine of a false prophet. (Rev. 2:6, 14 (Ephesus); Rev. 2:14-15 (Pergamum); Revelation 2:20 (Thyatira).)

This absolute prescription also was set forth in James’ ruling at the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15:20. Then it is repeated when it was put in a letter. (Acts 15:29.) Finally, James reiterates this for a third and final time in Acts chapter 21. James tells Paul that many claim Paul is teaching lawless doctrine. So James reminds Paul what was the ruling at the Jerusalem Council. He tells Paul that previously “we wrote giving judgment that they [i.e., the Gentiles] should keep themselves from things sacrificed to idols….” (Acts 21:25.)

However, Paul clearly teaches three times that there is nothing wrong in itself eating meat sacrificed to idols. (Romans 14:21;1 Corinthians 8:4-13, and 1 Corinthians 10:19-29.) The first time Paul addresses the question of “eating meat sacrificed to idols,” Paul answers: “But food will not commend us to God; neither if we eat not….” (1 Cor. 8:8.) Paul then explained it is only necessary to abstain from eating such meat if you are around a “weaker” brother who thinks an idol is something. (1 Cor. 8:7, 8:10, 9:22.) Then, and only then, must you abstain. The reason is that then a brother might be emboldened to do something he thinks is sinful. The brother is weak for believing eating meat sacrificed to an idol is wrong. This is thus a sin for him to eat, even though you know it is not sinful to eat meat sacrificed to idols. Thus, even though you know better than your weaker brother that it is no sin to do so, it is better to abstain in his presence than cause him to sin against his weak conscience and be “destroyed.” (1 Cor. 8:11.)

Jesus Says The Law Continues, But Paul Says No

CAVEAT: The Law given Moses applicable to “foreigners/sojourners” (Gentiles) is a relatively small set of moral commands primarily from Leviticus, incorporating most of the Ten Commandments. So if the Law given Moses applies to Gentiles, it is not a burdensome list. Yet, we are still applying literally the Law, just as James did in Acts 15, by treating the term “foreigner/sojourners” versus “Israel” as literally as possible. This distinction perfectly explains why James said circumcision does not apply to Gentiles, i.e., Leviticus 12:1-3 only requires sons of “Israel” to be circumcised. See this webpage where we discuss this issue in more depth.

Jesus’s View on the Law. Jesus emphasized the validity of the Law up through the passing away of Heaven and Earth, thus confirming its inspiration and ongoing validity. In Matthew 5:17-19 we read:

(17) Think not that I came to destroy the Law [of Moses] or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the Law, till all things be accomplished [i.e., all things predicted appear on the stage of history]. (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (ASV)

If we are HIS disciples who love and follow Jesus, then we should follow HIS example. Just as the first Adam fell through not keeping God’s Commandments, Jesus as the second Adam with no sin nature did what no other had been able to do, and that was to live according to and obey HIS Father’s commandments! We fall short often, but we repent and seek to do what is right in all things. Yeshua / Jesus kept the commandments of GOD.

Thus, Jesus can never be accused of seducing any Christian from following the Law. Jesus cannot be a false prophet under Deuteronomy 13:5 (false prophet is anyone who has miracles and wonders but seduces you from following the Law). Jesus said the Law remained valid until the Heavens and Earth pass away. This passing of heaven and earth occurs at the end of the Millennium. This is 1000 years after Christ’s Second Coming, according to the Book of Revelation.

I don’t want you to miss out on this very important “secret” if you will. It’s one of the key portions to understand. Read Deuteronomy now, and see if you have been tested and found wanting or will you hear, “Well done my good and faithful servant.”

Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Jesus said, one would come in his own name, doing signs and wonders. That we were not to trust him. Jesus/Yeshua our blessed savior who died for us, and rose again defeating death warned us of all things, and have we paid attention? I remind you:

Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Paul’s View on the Law. Paul says the opposite.

Paul is blunt in Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14, 2 Cor. 3:11-17, Romans 7:1-3 et seq, and Galatians 3:19 et seq. The Law is “abolished,” “done away with,” “nailed to a tree,” “has faded away,’ and was “only ordained by angels…who are no gods.” If we were to cite Paul’s condemnations of the Law in one string, the point is self-evident that Paul abrogated the Law for everyone. See Eph. 2:15 (“setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations”); Col. 2:14 (“having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;”) 2 Cor. 3:14 (“old covenant”); Gal. 5:1 (“yoke of bondage”); Rom. 10:4 (“Christ is the end of the law“); 2 Cor. 3:7 (“law of death”); Gal. 5:1 (“entangles”); Col. 2:14-17 (“a shadow”); Rom. 3:27 (“law of works”); Rom. 4:15 (“works wrath”); 2 Cor. 3:9 (ministration of condemnation); Gal. 2:16 (“cannot justify”); Gal. 3:21 (cannot give life); Col. 2:14 (“wiped out” exaleipsas); Gal. 3:19, 4:8-9 (“given by angels…who are no gods [and are] weak and beggarly celestial beings/elements”).
Jesus Says Only God Is Your Spiritual Father, and Call No Man on Earth Your Father, But Paul Says He Is The Corinthians’ Only Spiritual Father

Jesus said:

and ye may not call [any] your father on the earth, for one is your Father, who is in the heavens, (Matt. 23:9 YLT)

But Paul says:

For even if you had ten thousand others to teach you about Christ, you have only one spiritual father. For I became your father in Christ Jesus when I preached the Good News to you. (1 Cor. 4:15, NLT)

Need some more?

Jesus says Nations Of The World Are Under Satan, But Paul Says Their Rulers Are Agents of God

Compare Lk 4:5-8, Jn 18:36, 19:18, Ac 4:26 (Ps 2:2) versus Paul in Rom 13:1-5.

The celestial kingdom is described in the Gospels as of another order from the entire realm of the nations, which are ruled by Satan and whereby Christ was crucified. (See our webpage discussion.)

On the other hand, the secular authorities with all their weaponry (including Mk 15:16 ff) are stated by Paul to be God’s own agents. (Romans 13:1-5.) (Source: Metalog) [Added 9/25/2010]

Paul also contradicts Hosea 8:4 (700s BC): “They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval.” (NIV)

Cf. Thomas Aquinas recognized a Christian had no duty to obey unjust laws, implicitly recognizing the world’s rulers are not God’s agents. (Summa Theolgia (Copleston) Question 96, Art. 6; see Feldman at 307 fn. 125.)

Paul instructed his disciples not to allow anyone’s message to compete with his: “Even if an angel from Heaven should preach a gospel to you other than that which we have preached to you, let him be cursed.”[Gal 1: 8)
What if that God’s Son preached a different message?

It is not my intention to cause division. It is my intention to discuss truth, and bring unity to the body of Messiah. I ask you, did Paul bring unity? Did Paul line up with the teachings of Yeshua / Jesus? Did Paul submit to the rightful authority which Yeshua left in place or did Paul argue and go his own way? What was the fruit of Paul’s labor? What is the end result of his writings? They have caused more division amongst believers than anything else. Yeshua brought life and peace, joy and comfort. Paul’s words so often have brought pain, suffering, division and misery. Who is the good shepherd and do you follow him or Paul?

If you still think Paul is a true Apostle of Jesus and can prove it, here is your chance to win $1000.00. Just go to this web page, read it, follow the instructions. Please let me know when you win the money. So far, no one has. How can Paul be an Apostle when this verse clearly tells us there are only 12?
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


Of course the Law still exists -- it is God's covenant with the Israelites. And if you want to follow it, it's there for you to follow, but good luck, because you don't get to pick and choose -- if you put yourself under the Law, and apparently you are, you follow ALL of it, even the stuff that contradicts other stuff.

reply to post by Cancerwarrior


The Pope's statements strongly reflect political persuasion. In layman's terms, he wants good PR.

reply to post by adjensen


We are all grafted into Israel, and if you don't see that, then you are not reading the bible. Nothing contradicts in the bible, except Paul who should not have any writings in the bible.