China for World super power in next 40 years

Originally posted by mad scientistChina's increasing GDP comes from the low wages people are paid there and that they have no unions.

In comparison to what?. Western countries?.

Comparing apples and oranges here

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by mad scientistChina's increasing GDP comes from the low wages people are paid there and that they have no unions.

In comparison to what?. Western countries?.

Comparing apples and oranges here

LOL, doesn't matter, the Chinese people will want standards of living for themselves, comparable to the West. It is inevitable. They will also want workers rights, such as the ability to form a union.
Most of China's prosperity comes from the fact that there are no workers rights and things are very cheap to produce, once that changes......well if you have any brains you know the rest.

Most of China's prosperity comes from the fact that there are no workers rights

You hit the nail on the head with that one. Workers rights equal no prosperity which equals no growth which equals no threat to america

Like me say one thing. The japanese have union and such but they work a lot longer hours than the west but make roughly comparable money. Have you ever thought its a cultral thing?

Communist china which brings prosperity and has risen nearly every chinese out of the poverty line and nearly 200million chinese middle class workers. 9+% growth rates for 25years. income from 300US in 1979 to 1200 US now. Theres a similar example in south korea.

They had a dictator ship in the earlier years and lead to high growth than later on polictical reforms. The taiwanese were also like this also

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by Daedalus3
So the best res is 5.8m (comm) and swath is 740km (comm) for the IRS P6, as compared to "less than 20m" res and swath (unknown) of hte ZY-2 series.
Anyways the swath is not the point of debate here.

Here is the closet match up for the ZY-1 and ISR-6
IRS P6 are 23.5m for a 140km swath
ZY-1 which has a 20m at 113km.

The swathe of of both are roughly comparble and the resoultion is roughly comparable

Here is what is confirmed.

The ZY-1 has a resolution of 20m and swath of 113km. But if the ZY-1 makes a smaller swath like the ISR-6 than it can also get small resolutions like the ISR. agreed?. Because 20m was achieved at 113km while the ISR-6 did it at with 24 and 70km swathe. 20m resolution wouldn't be the best resolution the ZY-1 has

The ZY-2 is a improved version with new senors so it will be under 20m resolution at 113km swathe

There are three version of the ZY-2. A, B and C. A got launched in 2000 B got launched in 2002 and C got launched in 2004.

But im going to say its 1m resolution or under. This is not speculation its a educated assumtion. So would you doubt that in 4 years and three version china went didn't go down from under 20m to 1m or less metres?.


Daedalus3, Im going to say this openly but china has the lead in remote sensing while india is not far behind. agreed?

Anyway, who needs sub-1m resolutions for agricultural surveying

The thing is each sat has more than one sensor, each one haveing different spatial resolutions(IGFOV) and swath widths. That's where both of us were getting confused!!!

I already know the different resolution type. stragiht up digtial transmissions then infra-red images(there the ones with the funky colours). Than wide view,. In order of resoultion

[edit on 22-1-2006 by chinawhite]

Well the bottomline is, The ZY-1 doesn't have a better spatial resolution than 20 meters while the IRS-P6 has one of 5.8 metres. You're comparing the LISS-3 sensor on the P6 with the one with the best resolution on the ZY-1.
Thats a lop-sided comparision aye?
Especially when the LISS-4 onboard the IRS P6 has a 5.8m resolution,more than 3 times better than ANYTHING on the ZY-1. IMO in terms of resolution, the IRS P6 beats the ZY-1 hands down.

Anyways, maybe the ZY-2 series has something better than 20m res, but just beacuse there are 3 in orbit in the last 5 years doesn't meant that you can take educated guesses of "1m" resolution on the latest ones!!
As I said before, the rapid increase number of remote sats launched doesn't indicate technlogical improvement in resolotion, it indicates that the Zy-2 series has a larger surveillance area,understandable since china is taht much larger than India.
Infact I am quite sure that all ZY 2 satellites have VERY similar resolutions, if not exactly the same. Even if they are slightly different the best US estimates(which chinese scientist refute by saying its too high) is about 5 meters. Here they talk about CBERS 1/ZY-1, CBERS 2/ZY-2,CBERS 3/ZY-2 B, aand CBERS 4/ZY-2C, all acutally Sino-Brazillian ventures, so is not completely indegenous also. There's no mention of

Originally posted by namehere
oh yes it is, or was untill china invaded unless you think the tibetan army was a myth too, research a bit, oh and about china being defensive..'

To the victor, comes the spoils... How do you think the United States expanded from "sea to shining sea"? The Americans invaded the Natives, forced them out of their land, and massacred many of them. ALL of the land of what the U.S. and Canada currently has rightfully belongs to the Native Americans. The next time you start bashing China about how it invaded Tibet, look back at your own history and stop being so hypocritical.

Originally posted by namehere
they invaded:

russia(almost causing fullscale war)
tibet
india

within the last 56 years..

Can you name how many places America invaded within the last 56 years?

Please don't be so hypocritical...

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Anyways, maybe the ZY-2 series has something better than 20m res, but just beacuse there are 3 in orbit in the last 5 years doesn't meant that you can take educated guesses of "1m" resolution on the latest ones!!

All of them are different versions of satillites. A/B/C with each improvement on the rest. What you are getting confused is that the ZY-1 series is from the CBERS series of commerical satillites. The Zy-2 is a new series which is a chinese only military satillite(dual use). I can prove it by the level it was lanuched at. about 450-500km which is similar to the American KH-11 in distance from earth. The Zy-1 being the one used for commerical purposes are in the 700-800km range

And with each new satillite in the ZY-2 series there will be impvoement or why would they give them new destinations?

Here they talk about CBERS 1/ZY-1, CBERS 2/ZY-2,CBERS 3/ZY-2 B, aand CBERS 4/ZY-2C, all acutally Sino-Brazillian ventures, so is not completely indegenous also. There's no mention of

China's increasing GDP comes from the low wages people are paid there and that they have no unions. I wonder when Chinese people start to want the same rights western workers want, what will hapeen to the Chinese economy ? Things won't be cheap to prodiuce anymore, hence why many companies are moving there.

Hello, I guess it will happen when China begin to dominant the hi-tech market and scientific research. and.....it is coming.
msnbc.msn.com...

sciencecareers.sciencemag.org...(parent)/

Which means, Chinese can produce much more add-value product instead of cheap stuff. As result, the worker can get more paid.

Originally posted by Hawkssss
You know what. I think the best way and the most realistic is for china to be the world's No. 2 and let the yanks be the world police that they are.

I would think most Chinese really like that idea. No.2 is perfect position for next 100 years.

Please. Let American continue to be the No.1 world policeman, so Chinese can focus more on their own life.

The old Chinese proverb: only to get big fortune quietly -------am I translating correctly or not?

Can't agree more. Why does China need to be No.1 and be the world police? Let U.S and their people enjoy their jobs

Originally posted by kidswar

Originally posted by Hawkssss
You know what. I think the best way and the most realistic is for china to be the world's No. 2 and let the yanks be the world police that they are.

I would think most Chinese really like that idea. No.2 is perfect position for next 100 years.

Please. Let American continue to be the No.1 world policeman, so Chinese can focus more on their own life.

The old Chinese proverb: only to get big fortune quietly -------am I translating correctly or not?

Originally posted by google_abcd
Can't agree more. Why does China need to be No.1 and be the world police? Let U.S and their people enjoy their jobs

Who says being number makes you the world oplice ? That is a role the Americans have chosen for themsleves.
The more power and prosperity China has, the more agressive I imagine they'll become.
I just hope they fix their pollution, last time I was in Beijing it looked really foggy, when my eyes started stinging I realised it was pollution. It was the same when I was driven 100km out of Beijing as well. It's a shame that in the name of progress you have to ravage your country, 3 gorges dam just one example.

chinawhite,
so now you're saying that the ZY-2 IS a military satellite?!
Your government calls it a resource sat for civilian purposes.
And applying the same logic who is to say that the IRS P6 and the cartosat-1/2 are ONLY meant for civilian purposes, AND that the documented resolutions ARE the actual resolutions?!! Hell, if you can go from "less than 20 meters" to "1m meter or less" just based on the fac that there are 3 ZY-2 satellites up there, then hey anything's possible with these ISRO sats too!!

10-20cm?? puhleaasee.. Reality check!!

Originally posted by Daedalus3
so now you're saying that the ZY-2 IS a military satellite?!
Your government calls it a resource sat for civilian purposes.

I never said it wasn't

Somehow you dont believe chinese reports while now you believe them?. I'll give you insight. A 20m resolution CDD camera is good enough for arigcultral surveys city planning.

A satillie which orbits at 400-500km is only that low because it gives better resolutions, The effects of gravity at 400-500km is more intense which pulls the satillite down and loses orbit which limits service life. You only move it down to go below clouds and what not to get better resolutions. The only other reason would be to sell them commerically like india. But as we know images from ZY-2 are not for commerical use

China already has a cillivan remote sensing project with brazil. Why are two projects nessarly when the first co-opperative project is more than suffiecent for your needs?

And applying the same logic who is to say that the IRS P6 and the cartosat-1/2 are ONLY meant for civilian purposes, AND that the documented resolutions ARE the actual resolutions?!!

I never said it cannot be used for used for military purposes, I think i even said dual use in one of the articles i quoted or linked. I said indias military satillies are these satillies because you aid something about speculating about indias "military systems". And i said the only systesm india has are these ones

The reason why they are documented are because they sell them commerically. Thats why. Its no secret to get sales they quote resoultions. Because of the lack of funding india has to make them commerically sucessful to be able to launch these. Or there would be no lanuches

Hell, if you can go from "less than 20 meters" to "1m meter or less" just based on the fac that there are 3 ZY-2 satellites up there, then hey anything's possible with these ISRO sats too!!

I quoted Janes i didn't speculate on 20-30cm that wasn't me talking. I dont think i ever said 20 or less i think that was you. And that was you getting confused with the ZY-1 to ZY-2. Dont acusse me of saying that. I have always thought that the ZY-2 is sub-5 and suspected sub 1m. THe more i investigated the more it made sense

If the ZY-2C is the CBERS-2 than at one third the distance it would be 2.5-3m It is comfired that the ZY-2 is a improved model(weight) and the ZY-2C is a more improved model.


There are not just 3 ZY-2s there are three models. each going up in weight and capability


The truth here Daedalus3 is china leads india in the space race. Sometimes large(launch vehicles, communications) and sometimes small(Remote sensing). The fact remains that china has suspended a lot of lanuches in preparation for the Shenzhu lanuches. and seeing as though they are finished for the momment more lanuches are going to occur. India will recieve alot of help though. For guidence india will join the russian but china is developing her own GPS and leeching off europeans to use theirs.

Lets see how Chandrayan-1 turns out .ok?

yes china will become a superpower however it will counterd by india becoming a superpower too both have similar expectations of better livin standards both have large populations but i think india has an edge more of its population talk english and understand western ideas as being a former british colony this has to be an advantage in trading which is how these countrys aspire to become global powerhouses of manufacturing and service industrys

Originally posted by mad scientist
Who says being number makes you the world oplice ? That is a role the Americans have chosen for themsleves.

Hahha, the people in africa have a much worse living situation/human rights than Iraq. Why don't americans try to free(invade) them? The answer is simple: There is no OIL there.

Originally posted by google_abcd

Originally posted by mad scientist
Who says being number makes you the world oplice ? That is a role the Americans have chosen for themsleves.

Hahha, the people in africa have a much worse living situation/human rights than Iraq. Why don't americans try to free(invade) them? The answer is simple: There is no OIL there.

Gawd and what does everyone else do for Africa ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. What have the Europeans done, what have the South Americans done, what have the Asian's done ? NOTHING. The British and the Commonwealth have allowed Mugabe in Zimbabwe to run riot. Why should America sacrifice it's people and spend its money when the rest of the world does nothing ?

What a stupid argument and it really has nothing to do with my statement.

PS. If we really want to talk about injustices that should be solved, what about Chinese torture and suppression of the Tibetans not to mention China's continued brutal repression of the Uighar's in NW China. Should America step in and right these wrongs as well, after all they are the world policeman

[edit on 23-1-2006 by mad scientist]

Originally posted by mad scientist
Gawd and what does everyone else do for Africa ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. What have the Europeans done, what have the South Americans done, what have the Asian's done ?

www.guardian.co.uk...
Latest mission suggestion by the UK proposes 15,000 strong force to go to africa.

In 2000 there was a task force of RN warships and 800 royal marines sent to Sierra Leone.

In 2003 there was a company of the 2nd Battalion Royal Gurkha Rifles and a type 23 warship sent to the area.

In 2004 there was 45,000 uniformed UN peacekeeping forces were stationed in Africa.

www.assembly-weu.org...
List of EU operations since 1994...

Still convinced we aint doing anything?

Originally posted by devilwasp
www.guardian.co.uk...
Latest mission suggestion by the UK proposes 15,000 strong force to go to africa.

In 2000 there was a task force of RN warships and 800 royal marines sent to Sierra Leone.

In 2003 there was a company of the 2nd Battalion Royal Gurkha Rifles and a type 23 warship sent to the area.

Come on Devil, that for all intents and purposes is nothing. What were the soldiers therefore exactly ? The US did more for Somalia.

In 2004 there was 45,000 uniformed UN peacekeeping forces were stationed in Africa.

Most of these forces aren't European and a large majority are from African countries themselves.

Still convinced we aint doing anything?

Pretty much, Europe really hasn't done jack. Hell during the Rwanda massacres, teh French set up a safe haven in SW Rwanda for the people who were doing all the killing. If that's a European peacekeeping operation they can keep it to tehmselves.

I believe China will become an economic super-power in the coming decades. Their economy is growing and a lot of the jobs will be found in the East. It be a good idea to learn some Chinese if you are a buisness man or women. I work for a company that has been giving optional 3 times a week classes on Mandarin.

Well,the oribital thruster capability will make all the difference if at all.
I'm not sure if the IRS P6 or CARTOSAT series have those, and i doubt it.

But here's another point to note.
The real reason IMO that there were 3 launched was the fact that each of them had a lifespan of only 2 years. And if you look at the launch dates they're probably just about 2 years apart. So at a time there is only one
ZY-2 sat in orbit. THAT is the reason for 3 launches in 5 years. To keep at least one ZY-2 up there at all times during these 5 years. Lets see what happens in 2006 aye? Maybe another ZY-2 launch.

Chandrayaan..sure we'll wait and watch. Personally I don't feel quite optimistic abt it.. but I have no data to either back that up or refute it.

Yes the orbit life has to do with something called gravity . Putting a satillite at such a low altitude can have that effect.

The service life is at least 2year with the first one serving for a little more than 3 years. The scond one is presumly still in service since i has not been anounced of its retirement. The first KH-11s also had about a a three year lifespan.


Anything is possible

[edit on 24-1-2006 by chinawhite]