Who Are The Others That God Refers To Concerning Our Creation? Just Curious......

Originally posted by ChesterJohn

Originally posted by Zanti Misfit
reply to post by davethebear

 

God did not Write the Bible , Men did . They Interpreted what They thought was the Word of God . Man , being falable , does not always get his Stories Straight...........

over 45 men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Ghost and that over a 1400 year period of time and all the facts and themes fit together in perfect harmony.

but Star Wars was written by men and in just over 20 years from the first set of movies they couldn't keep all the facts straight and keep the story straight.

What is the Point you are trying to make here ? Man's Interpertations of Gods Word can hold Many Truths and Many Delusions , how are we to Really Know which is which is my Point.

Originally posted by borntowatch
Funny how its a biblical question and the OP asked people not to use scripture to explain scripture.
Funny how so many start talking weird stuff about what the "US" in the bible is, from outside biblical sources.

The Trinity is the Christian answer to "US" in the book of Genesis. The Jews have a hard time explaining it themselves.
Humanity was created perfect without sin, sin enters the world and with sin came death. Death for children, babys, all life.
Jesus sacrifice restored the pre sin state of humanity (free gift that needs to be recieved) and will be rectified upon Christ's return

The Apostle Paul understood that all things were made in Christ and through Christ. So what does "us" mean? It means the trinity and/or Christ and other high ranking beings made by Christ like say the archangels known as "thrones".

reply to post by davethebear


my question to you is "our" taken from which version of the Bible? The original source materials were written in various languages. Ancient Hebrew? Aramaic? Greek? Then translated into Latin and later translated into English.Many words have multiple translations available and were chosen on the interpretation of the translator. Add in grammar and syntax and much of what you are reading is very distorted from what was originally intended. And never ever forget that "The" Bible is a collection of individual books written over several millennia that were compiled into a single book until around AD 400. This conference chose which books to include, and which books to exclude. A lot of distortion has occurred. Some accidental, some with intent.

"Our"? Is it a slip of translation? Throughout the entire Bible, God does a lot of delegating. God sends the angel of death at Passover. Other times, Gabriel or Michel are sent out. Just who is Metatron? Would it be beyond questioning that these other spiritual beings weren't involved in the great work too?

Many people are hung up on the idea of this word "image" and take it literally. The essence of human beings doesn't reside in the feet or the hands or the hair. Its the " I think therefore I am" of self consciousness and the expression of spirit and emotions of love and compassion. And what about the resurrection? Would it be fair for the blind to be brought back blind? The lame as cripples? that doesn't make sense. So would they be cured of their issues? And if we're "fixing" things, why not be taller? Nicer teeth? That seems pretty superficial. Image must be beyond physical realms and limitations.

Why are there physical differences? Physical degradation can happen from the natural process of replication. I'm not one of those people who think the Bible and science are mutually exclusive. There is not one word in the Bible that excludes evolution as a process. It says God created the world and man. Not a word on the processes used or put in place. It is a book of religion and philosophy, not science. A lot is also made of the possible DNA modification carried out first at the tree of knowledge, and later efforts by fallen angels known as the watchers leading to the creation of the nephilim. God considered these creatures not of his image, and perversions of his plan. Largely glossed over in the official Bible as a footnote about giants of renown, and man's uncontrollable sinning, the not officially recognized Book of Enoch clearly holds that destroying the nephilim angel/human hybrids and the corruption they had caused were the major driving factor for the flood of Noah. Gods hatred wasn't based on their physical appearance, but some apparent abnormality in their hearts and minds that prevented them from experiencing spiritual awakening and ideas of love and compassion.

Originally posted by davethebear
I actually came and started this thread because I thought that the 2 questions I asked would be quite easily answered by the ones who are supposedly in the know...

Although answers have been quite interesting, I suppose I have found myself getting a little lost with some of the answers/ideas received..

This book called the bible is quite complicated isn't it? Seems as though you have to make a great deal of effort to make any sense of it all when the supposed being called God wants us all to believe in him, but he doesn't make it very easy, does he?

So obviously the thread has taken on a few different tangents over the last couple of pages. I am reading it all with interest, but sometimes it seems that complicated to take in, when in fact all I really wanted was I suppose an easy understanding of something that millions of people across the world, including God, want me to be a part of...

Still confused, but please continue

Cheers......

I very much want to answer these questions for you,
but I can't bring myself to do it for two reasons.

First of all, I have lost all credibility here
and it bothers me to think of how the answers will be treated.

Secondly, the answer I have finally received is the end result
of a life long quest. One that has made me grindingly poor in
the process, and now that I have the answer I look around
the world and find no one worth sharing it with.

For that I am sorry.

I won't say that anyone else is wrong, as I too had to go
through those thoughts before I finally understood.

I will say this though. To encourage anyone else
still on the quest for the ultimate answer as
to who-is-us in Genesis chapter one.

"The answer is right there, for the
one with eyes to see it."


Mike

If you go back farther...Genesis appears to be copied from the Summerian texts. It would then follow that God is referring to his fellow Gods. Take Sitchen and all of those theorists out of it for a moment. Genesis was derived from older texts and in those texts it's a pantheon of Gods credited with creating man. Therefore "...in our image.." makes more sense. There is not one but many Gods. So does that then mean that the bible must be taken as a watered down version of more ancient sacred writings and that Christianity is nothing more than a borrowed religion? If we know that genesis is begotten from older texts...why not disgard the bible then and only refer to the older texts?

reply to post by amazing


You have to remember that any "similarities" only cover a few passages, if that, of Geneses. After that the narrative doesn't match. In fact if you compare the parts that appear similar, you probably couldn't prove in court that they were from the same "source" due to details and theme. Similarity doesn't make a theme.

One thing of note is in Geneses man was charged with keeping the garden, not as the other stories go that man was made to till the earth and bring forth his own food by labor. These stories pass over the central Geneses theme that man was not made as a field worker......at least Adam wasn't.

reply to post by Logarock


Good points. I just feel that the "...In our image..." was borrowed from earlier texts and not changed. I think the original biblical creation story was borrowed from earlier stories with pantheons of Gods instead of just one God. That's just my opinion as of now, though, and that might change with more research. I'm also not convinced that keep the garden and work that garden and any variation of that isn't meant to be the same. I really wish I would have studied ancient languages. lol

Originally posted by amazing
reply to post by Logarock

 

I think the original biblical creation story was borrowed from earlier stories with pantheons of Gods instead of just one God.

Well then one has to ask why one man, one family, went with the one god idea and the others went with the pantheon. And according to the one god they worshiped and who took ownership of them, they were to reject all other "gods" as worthless and weak. As far as he was concerned he was the only god, the only real god even claiming to be the maker of all things in heaven and earth. As time went on, as these branches emerged, most of the major civilizations had taken on the pantheon, worshiping the sun and moon, while the other still rejected the pantheon and worshiped the maker of the sun and moon.

What completely convinced me about this subject when I began to study it was when I realized that the Trinity is attacked by all the cults and false religions.

When you see mostly cults and false religions backing the anti-Trinity Doctrine, that says a lot to me.

The anti-Trinity heresy is one of the most dangerous teachings today which is why it was officially condemned by the church in the fourth century.

IS THE TRINITY TRUE?

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been consistently misunderstood, probably more than any other teaching of the Bible. The Trinity is a complex doctrine, and there is the aspect of mystery surrounding it.

The Trinity has become the main doctrine that all the cult groups attack. It is also the main doctrine that all the mainline, historic churches agree upon. We may all have our differences, Catholics and varying Protestant groups, but when it comes to the doctrine on God we all agree that the Bible teaches belief in One God revealed in three persons, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Nevertheless we would not want to believe in the Trinity if the Bible did not teach it, no matter what the beliefs of our various churches were.

It's interesting that the cult groups usually give their members a false definition of the Trinity. For example, the magazine salesmen knocking on your door with their propaganda from Brooklyn, New York, say that the church teaches that there are three gods in one. This is completely false.

In conclusion on the teaching of the Trinity, we have proven beyond doubt from Scripture, that there is only one true God by nature. This one, true God has revealed Himself in three ways, as the Father Yahweh, and the Son Jesus Christ, and as the Holy Spirit. This Trinity teaching was not invented centuries after the death of Christ as the cults teach at the Nicene Council, but is the true revelation of God to us in Scripture.

The council at Nicene convened to drum out of the church the heresy that Jesus Christ was only a creature and an archangel to boot. Various door-knocking cults have attempted to reintroduce the Arian heresy to gullible Christians.

On the following pages are two charts of scriptures for you to check out. Make copies of these to keep in your Bible. Have them available when you encounter any one who has a problem with understanding the Trinity. (For printing use the version from the linked site, it has a transparent B/G)

IS THE TRINITY TRUE?

Plural pronouns used of God proving the trinity

A. Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages. Remember the word God (elohim) is also plural every time it is used in the Old Testament. Gen 11:7 also includes a plural verb (confuse) which even further, through grammar reinforces the plural "elohim" and the plural pronoun US.

"Our" Gen 1:26
"Us" Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8
"We" Isa 6:8

B. These are the four passages where God speaks for Himself and uses plural pronouns:

"Then God [plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness" Genesis 1:26

"Then Yahweh God [plural elohim] said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:22

"Come, let Us [plural pronoun] go down and there confuse [plural form of balal] their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech." Genesis 11:7

"Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural elohim], saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?"" Isaiah 6:8

Trinity Proof Texts

"Another characteristic of all non‑Christian cults is either an inadequate view or outright denial of the Holy Trinity. The biblical doctrine of the Trinity, one God in three Persons, is usually attacked as being pagan or satanic in origin.

The Characteristics of Cults

The Trinity is attacked mainly by cults so that they can also deny the deity of Jesus.

One of the biggest clues is to look at which groups reject the Trinity and which do not:

Faith Groups that Reject the Trinity

• Muslims
• Mormons
• Jehovah's Witnesses
• Christian Science
• Scientology
• Arians
• Armstrongism
• Christadelphians
• The Way International
• Unification Church

Cults HATE The Trinity
The Characteristics of Cults

Most schizophrenics speak of them, they us we, our etc.



Most all of it has been designed to CONTROL you.

Yes,,,that's about 99.98% of what you think you know...especially if you hold large reputable degrees, awards, and positions in society...stature and monetarily

Originally posted by davethebear
I am not a religious person, but I have two questions regarding something I looked up today on the internet about man apparently being made in Gods own image…

According to Genesis 1:26-27, it states, "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,’ So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him….

My second question relates again to God making man in his own image…

If God is the creator of all mankind, then why doesn't he give us all a fair chance from the start off? If his creation of everything, including mankind is perfect, then why are some people born with limbs missing, serious health conditions, and some children even dead before, during, and after birth?

Wouldn't it be fair to give all mankind an even start?

If you are going to give any response to this thread, please don’t bombard me with trillions of verses from the bible. Explaining in YOUR own words should be enough to answer two pretty simple questions I think….
Cheers

Thanks for your post dave......I too no longer consider myself 'religious' however, in reading and studying and practice Religious dogmas for decades, I can adopt the things that are clear, understandable and seem to be logical (i.e. Love, Peace, Charity, being kind, compassionate and just trying to help your fellow man in need of help...to espouse a few)....so I am Spiritual and do not consider myself glued to a specific Religion.

So, your questions although direct, are not 'simple' because the bible, written by men, and many gospels have been excluded and in fact, was only constructed, put together in approximately 323AD by Constitine in Council of Nicea by a bunch of men. So a lot of stories, altering accounts, and simple beliefs and truths were left out.....We will never know.

But, Why would a God make it so difficult??? Why the big metaphors? the Riddles? I respect everyone's opinion and do not discount anything, try to remain open minded, but ultimately, this is a personal journey.

The Bible was written by men, Period. Inspired by God? Or just a hope or another fear tactic of the time that if you don't believe me, then you won't be saved. Typical fear based persuasion of the time, for centuries, until people have begun to question things....things that just don't make sense, or certainly don't reflect the teachings we were told to believe....they are fallable, hence....perhaps....something is wrong...If there is a God, where is he???

Which leaves us directly to your second question. If this creator is so perfect and the Universe and all his creations are so perfect, then why all the pain? Why are we constantly suffering thousands of years later? Atrocities of this creation called man, killing, raping, child abuse, starvation, human trafficing, man against man, innocent children being murdered in 1st and 2nd grades by gunmen.....the list goes on and on. And today, If we were made in the image and likeness of God, why do we have all these diverse cultures....???? Evidence continues to show that hominids have been found in Western and Eastern Europe that contradict the story that we all walked out of Africa??? I don't think so.....Neanderthals????

So anyway, always a healthy thing to question things....and if you dig hard, you begin to find contradictions. Even this is provocative as Jesus Christ hung as he was nailed to a cross he cried out " "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" If Jesus is God, why would He say this?"

I contend that it is not blasphemy to ask the same question today: "why have you forsaken US????" If you exist? If you exist, Where Are You??? I don't have an answer, I continue to seek with a healthy curiosity...everyone one should.

Peace!! ID!!!

reply to post by TruthLover557


That is beautiful, thank you for sharing your personal story. I have many times over done the same thing, dropped the "Christian" act, and just flat out talked with God with all of my heart, cursing at Him even, talking to Him in a way few believers ever would, just flat out angry sometimes. But that was what He wanted all along, for me to communicate to Him what He knew was in my heart. And I felt so much better after that, and grew much closer to God after each time I do that. Much closer than following some rule book or trying to find some scientific proof of God etc. All throughout the Bible you find people arguing and even fighting with God, and God never lets them down, that is all God/Jesus/Holy Spirit wants, is you to communicate with Him. He is there to be your Best friend, and your brother, not just your Savior and Creator Thank you for sharing this, as It is good to know I am not the only one.

Originally posted by davethebear
If God is the creator of all mankind, then why doesn't he give us all a fair chance from the start off? If his creation of everything, including mankind is perfect, then why are some people born with limbs missing, serious health conditions, and some children even dead before, during, and after birth?

Wouldn't it be fair to give all mankind an even start?

Your problem is a fundamental mis-understanding of our entire purpose - no surprise if someone believes the lies that Church and institutional religions is spreading.

Our life has a the purpose of learning for the goal of GROWING spiritually. Hardships are an elemental part of it. This physical life is only one very tiny aspect of our much greater "over soul".

There is a purpose to experience bad things, diseases, being poor, loss of loved ones, as hard it is to except at the first glance. Without hardships, learning and spiritual growth is IMPOSSIBLE.

A "perfect" existence would be entirely pointless, life would be entirely pointless. Only through overcoming and learning from this life's problems you may, at some point, experience and understand the real purpose of life and therefore also the reality of god/the creator/our existence.

To address your first question:

I am aware that any "religious" person will NEVER accept or understand it..but I don't care:

The idea of god does NOT exclude the idea of multiple gods. If there is one creator there MAY be as well more, respective the question *itself* becomes actually irrelevant. The question of "more gods" is only confusing from a HUMAN and limited point of view since for us, a being, entity is only "one". If we assume a "almighty" god, he/she/it could as well have multiple aspects of himself, not being limited to the human idea of "one entity". From a certain point of view, the question "One good, more gods, infinite gods" is irrelevant. You can not apply limited human concepts to a god or creator, makes as much sense as asking how much god weighs or how tall he/she/it is.

Only by getting taught and then using those naive ideas you *create* your questions in the first place The question about the "number of gods" (is he one or more etc.)..is not different than more obvious, naive and false teachings, say, the idea of a male person with a beard sitting on a throne in heaven. (Once AS WELL people believed and STILL believe this is actually an accurate picture of god). That those people may at some point get a problem with such beliefs and ask whether it's actually accurate is not really surprising

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by borntowatch
Funny how its a biblical question and the OP asked people not to use scripture to explain scripture.
Funny how so many start talking weird stuff about what the "US" in the bible is, from outside biblical sources.

The Trinity is the Christian answer to "US" in the book of Genesis. The Jews have a hard time explaining it themselves.
Humanity was created perfect without sin, sin enters the world and with sin came death. Death for children, babys, all life.
Jesus sacrifice restored the pre sin state of humanity (free gift that needs to be recieved) and will be rectified upon Christ's return

The Apostle Paul understood that all things were made in Christ and through Christ. So what does "us" mean? It means the trinity and/or Christ and other high ranking beings made by Christ like say the archangels known as "thrones".

and you have evidence foe this I take it, these high ranking beings, thrones

Deep sigh......Trying to interpret the bible written in ENGLISH which was a translation from LATIN which in itself was a translation from HEBREW is clealry idiotic! Chinese whispers kicks in:

Hebrew : Send reinforcements we are going to advance.
English : Send three and fourpence we are going to a dance.

Irrespective of whether you believe in God or not you must refer to the original Hebrew for the original meaning.

The bible has to be the most difficult book to read in the world for most people. If you ask someone if they have read it and did they understand it - your get a resounding 'no'.

Some people say it is coded etc and more recently with the advances in linquistics we now have far older cultural records and can see how the Bible takes different stories and the Hebroews moulded them to suit the policy of uniting a somewhat unruly group of people into a nation so the priesthood could lead them.

The Summerian texts tell of the Annanaki who built a garden after the flood. The book of Enoch concurs with much of this and this is probably the biblical start.

The problem is though in the Hebrew teaching that God created the world in 7 days etc and that man is created in his image. You cannot take teachings like this literally because we know this is simply a means of telling a group of people stories about their supposed beginnings.

Life on the planet was created long before this period and life has had many many different faces and environments. Why would God bother to create all of this over a period of billions of years prior to creating a world he reputedly walked upon himself? and why do we not all look alike? we cannot in common sense have been created in one likeness only.

You also need to look at the nature of God in the bible towards mankind there is more than one nature apparent and most ancient peoples have a pantheon of Gods whom have now become in the West, the Saints etc etc.

My Grand and parents didn't ever challenge the religious teachings in their youth and younger adulthood. They fought in the WW1/2 etc and had a great deal initially of difficulty when they saw I did not swallow but questioned religious dogma. Today most people dare to think about what they are expected to accept and so research is slowly showing at least part of a very complicated picture of our planet's past life.

Originally posted by davethebear
I am not a religious person, but I have two questions regarding something I looked up today on the internet about man apparently being made in Gods own image…

According to Genesis 1:26-27, it states, "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,’ So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him….

Now who does the US and OUR, in the sentence refer to? If God was supposedly the creator of everything, on his own, who are the others in reference to the word US and OUR? I am a little confused as to why God would use the plural rather than the singular…

My second question relates again to God making man in his own image…

If God is the creator of all mankind, then why doesn't he give us all a fair chance from the start off? If his creation of everything, including mankind is perfect, then why are some people born with limbs missing, serious health conditions, and some children even dead before, during, and after birth?

Wouldn't it be fair to give all mankind an even start?

If you are going to give any response to this thread, please don’t bombard me with trillions of verses from the bible. Explaining in YOUR own words should be enough to answer two pretty simple questions I think….

Cheers

I understand your question....

1) It's a mystery. And an extremely interesting one at that. The "us" could refer to, perhaps, many creators? Who knows!

2) You can't hold people's faith in God hostage over birth defects and unfortunate and extremely sad situations. This is life. It's not perfect and nor are we. Why are people born with defects? Well, because we are biological. Things can go wrong and things do go wrong. The "in my/our image" statement can't be discredited for biological birth defects and unfortunate events that happen to people....

I think the whole problem is how people interpret the Bible. Does it need to be taken word for word literally? Remember what you're reading. A translation (and me probably a mistranslation) of the original texts. It's understanding the meanings behind the bible, and that's fairly subjective in many ways...

Don't take the bible as everything. I was raised a Catholic, and i still consider myself to this day. But remember that God didn't create religion, man did. I will be a Christian until the day i die. I know this because i have faith in SOMETHING after this life. I believe in a higher power. And, to put it bluntly, i believe in "God".... So the Bible, to me, is just a book of stories (predictions??) and lessons that are valuable in their own way.

reply to post by davethebear

My opinion is we started out an energy form then was given form to interact with material world. Also later on in bible it says will make Christ in man's image. When did we change?

we were created by aliens cloning. and worship them.
fallen angels giants there were way more humanlikes before adam and eve.
eve being cloned from adams rib.