The concept of Hell

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
"Hell" is based on:

pagan philosophy
pagan theology
pagan myth
bad Bible translations
bad church/Church doctrine
twisted Scripture
epic poetry (Dante, Milton, etc.)
other fictional accounts
EweToob vids
unproved and unprovable dreams, NDE's, visions, etc.
outright lies

Hell is a 404.

YES!

reply to post by Rex282


If hell is a 404, then your whole last post doesn't make any sense.

The equivalent of Hades in the Old Testament is Sheol. Hades/Sheol is divided into two parts - hell and paradise. Hell is where the souls of unrighteous men will temporarily reside. Paradise is where the souls of righteous men temporarily resides. After this, the great white throne judgement. The righteous will proceed to the new heavens and the new Earth, and the unrighteous will proceed to the lake of fire.

If one says Hades/Sheol is hell, it is not entirely correct, for it has two distinct places. If one says Hades/Sheol is your eternal destination, it is also not correct, for it is only a temporary holding place to await the great white throne judgment.

I'm afraid my answer is far too simple, and I ask for correction where I am wrong.

Jesus said "Come unto Me ..." We can choose to, or we can choose not to. If we choose to come to Him, then we're with Him, and being with God is Heaven.

If we choose not to come to Jesus, then we are not with Him. Definitely, completely, fully apart from Him. That's Hell and it's torture is worse than fire, but we went there because we chose to. We were not sent from God so much as we walked away from Him. Our choice.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Rex282

 

If hell is a 404, then your whole last post doesn't make any sense.

I have no idea what a 404 is and don't care.I just thought it was a goofy code tag Lazarus short did as a nod nod wink wink..know what I mean joke and left it in the quote.

Whatever it is it has nothing to do with what I wrote.I was just agreeing with what LS wrote.

reply to post by Rex282


It means a blank, nothingness forever. That's not being saved.

Originally posted by Rex282
Hell is not in the scriptures .Hades, Gehenna and Tartaros are the 3 words translated hell in the NT.Hades being the prominent means the grave the realm of the dead the realm of imperception.However The Truth is...Yahoshua is the savior of ALL mankind .That is what his name (nature)means God IS salvation.Yahoshua IS saving EVERYONE.

The terms of salvation are this ..you are being saved.There are no other requirements.. it is 100% Gods doing.No one "chooses" to be saved.That is another false doctrine of men (of the multitude) God chose and he is choosing everyone in their own order.Physical death is not a cutoff period.The scriptures say nothing of this (no Heb 9:27 does not mean that ).

This false doctrine of men falls in line with how man does not know God.They have completely misjudged his character.How could so many callously and frivolously truly believe and be infected by a heinous doctrine like hell and truly know God.Fortunately God knows all of this and understands completely.That is what God is saving them from.The most cumulative infectious "disease" there is... religion.The very thing most people think has made them well!!Who thinks they need to be healed of that ..and that is the quandary man is in.

Mankind is completely blind to their true illness that they need saving from.This is the core of all death.Physical death is just one death.The good news is God is the savior of ALL mankind regardless of their condition or their efforts or non effort.Is God just .... Yes....men have no concept of just judgment.God has proved that by mans blindness to his deepest illness religion.

The crux is man thinks they believe in God and that's all there is however belief is not knowing .Gods purpose is that all will KNOW him not just believe in him.Salvation is an infinite process not an event.He is saving ALL mankind not ONE will be lost or annihilated.That is the foolishness of mens doctrines and the perversion of the carnal mind that is at enmity with God.

Here are the scriptures that testify of Gods absolute salvation of ALL mankind.However only God can reveal the Truth of God is salvation to man.No one chooses to know.


1 Cor 15:22For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

Philp 2:9 God also has highly exalted him, and given him a NAME (Yahoshua... God is salvation) which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus(Yahoshua) EVERY knee will bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Heb. 2:9 "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours ONLY but also for the sins of the WHOLE world."

1Timothy 2:3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God OUR Savior;Who WILL have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL WILL come to repentance."

Titus 2:11 The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN."

1 John 4:14 We have seen, and do testify, that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior(Yahoshua) of the WORLD."

1 John 2:2.he (Yahoshua) "is" the sacrifice for our sins, and NOT for ours only but ALSO for the WHOLE world

1 Tim. 4:9-11 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach."

John 12:47And if any man hear my words, and BELIEVE not, I judge him NOT: for I came NOT TO JUDGE the world, but to SAVE the world.

edit on 31-8-2013 by Rex282 because: (no reason given)

YES!

BTW, "404" is a code which may come up on your computer from time to time, when your browser cannot find a website: 404 = not found.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Rex282

 

If hell is a 404, then your whole last post doesn't make any sense.

Actually, it makes perfect sense. Universal salvation, aka Universal Reconciliation, requires the non-existence of Hell and eternal torment in it.

You're right I have presented a lot of different thoughts, and I know that I can seem a bit all over the place in my thoughts on the concept of hell. I've likened this to being a human being, our imaginations can take us in many different directions. The Human Brain is a bizarre thing, capable of consciousness unparalleled by any other creature that has ever existed. We are made in the image of God, and we are his most prized creation. So our inhate human desire to dig through information, utilizing the spirit of discernment given from the holy spirit in an effort to search for the "truth that will set us free" ( words taught by the lord Jesus Christ) is all part of the process of experiencing life, exploring different philosophies, growing through different stages in life and ultimately coming to this realization that despite all the different directions our minds can lead us ( we are antennas of energy, and because a lot of the universal energy is one of despair, pain, suffering, death in the earth right now, human beings are prone to becoming manipulated, deceived from the main truth. But so as long as you seek God with all of your heart- you will inevitably eventually come to a fork in the road moment, if not many where the truth is clear. I may be wrong, and I am willing to always stand corrected when it comes to my understandings of the word of God. That being said, I feel along this journey God has helped me begin to see some things clearer only so as long as I stay in the spirit, and truly seek him, his guidance and correction in Life.
What I've come to believe about the concept of Hell is extremely complex. I believe It does exist but not in the context that we have been taught to interpret it. I used to deny it outright, and now I can see in hindsight that this was because I had such compassion for everyone, but did not come to the concept of justice and just what it truly meant. I am very torn on the Universal reconciliation idea, mostly because I can definitely see their are some verses in the bible that would lead us to believe It is a very viable possibility.

Revelation 5: 13 reads, ‘And every created thing that is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on t
he throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power for ever and ever.”’

This verse is a very tricky one, because it can imply several different things via different interpretations. But It is clear when it says EVERY created thing that is in heaven on the earth and under the earth. If it was trying to articulate that only created things in heaven could usher glory and blessing and honour , one would think that it would stop at that, but instead it even says every created thing on earth and under the earth!
You see, as we dive into a topic this confusing, complex , and especially one that requires so much emotion to follow through in diligent study with we need to keep in mind that there are thousands of differents sects within Christianity alone. We will have those who believe in Universal Salvation for all, those who believe in the elect, predestined form of believers despite free will before they were born in Calvinism. You will have Baptists and Pentecostals who are notoriously known for their deep commitment and passion towards creating church environments similar to that you would find in the early church in the book of acts. A church of hands on healing, prophesy, among many other tangible things encountering the holy spirit of God personally. and than you will have mega churches belonging to a charismatic movement, where evangelism is it's priority and massive amounts of money exchange hands, and it the messages are very reformed by nature.
Admits all the differences in these cultures within Christianity alone, it is inevitable we will not see eye to eye on everything, but instead of going to war with each other whether it be physically, mentally or spiritually we need to never forget that Jesus Christ's holy spirit is what bonds us. If we claim to be re born, yet we fail to love one another, fail to cast out judgment on others than we are just as hypocritical a gossiper, slanderer or a liar. This isn't to say we roll over to bad theology that is unbiblical, if anything we should stand strong in our beliefs! But I have come to believe that you show strength by complete perseverance , a spirit of constant forgiveness, love, mercy, understanding, peace. You do not fight fire with fire.. but rather you pray and pray like never before that God's truth and God's love that was given through the death and resurrection of his son Jesus Christ will unite us all toward a spirit of repentance, unity, hope, faith and love.

I say these things because I feel it is crucial as we discuss emotional topics to not let emotions cloud our judgement, we need to keep a clear spiritual focus when it comes to God's word when it comes to a matter of eternal life.
My reasoning behind why I do believe in Hell, but do not believe in in the way we've been taught in so many schools of thought, is because there is a clear misconception taking place when we read the bible and assume that God is the vengeful, wrathful, hateful power who has no problem eternally torturing some people forever. So many people who interpret Hell literally will point out to scriptures such as Lazarus and the Rich Man, they will point out to scriptures such as Matthew 13:42
They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
and this one

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

But herein lies the problem with the interpretations behind so many of these. Many do not know that early Christians did not interpret these scriptures the way many scholars, and preachers interpret them to their listeners/ congregation.

Hell simply means the grave, Sheol means the underworld, and Gehenna refers to the trash dump.

The problem now adays is history has been manipulated so well, that we can't even fully be sure anymore when the concept of Hell changed. Many people believe during the council of Nicea when Constantine was emperor of Rome. It was chosen among a group of church fathers which books would enter the canon and which would not. Now I believe with all my heart, that things have become twisted and portrayed the wrong way. Now we have Da vinci Code books by dan brown brainwashing the public to believe it was the mighty holy roman catholic church that was the brute enemy of the outskirt Illuminati, knights Templar etc... ( not to say the catholic church's hands are clean) But its ironic that now we live in a time where the illuminati have actually made the church look like the bad guys and are deceiving the world into this massive new age hysteria.

So I am by no means advocating that the holy books within the bible canon are forgeries, but what I do believe is open for debate is what was slightly altered for the basis of personal biased agendas. Were translations deliberately neglected that could change the entire meaning of a certain concept altogether? If you read the book of Enoch It seems quite legitimate and describes the Fallen Angels on the Earth in great detail. But this book was left out of the bible. So you see it's not to deny the bible, but it's using the bible to cross reference other outside sources that could still come from God but just weren't accepted into the 66 books. Once you embrace that, and pray for the holy spirit to show you which spirits to listen to and which spirits to avoid, you will be led to where you need to be.

Through a lot of this journey, I am still divided on a lot of these topics, but from what I've understood. There will be those who are judged on judgement day who sought not the forgivness of Christ, who sought not God and saw no need for him. There judgement will be different than those who are truly re born of the holy spirit and written in the book of life. But the bible talks a lot about how they will experience hell because and this is "key" because they die without God, without eternal life. But die as in they are annihilated, the thought of them is no more...

“No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13/5)

Hell is described by Jesus as a place where God will “destroy both body and soul.” (Matt. 10:28)


The key here is to completely "destroy", for someone to "perish" . They just seem consistent with a final chapter an end. I will dig much deeper into these concepts, and I am more than willing to share ideas and bounce some back and forth with you all. I have a bit of a learning disability, that I've had my entire life, so I am very easily thrown off topic, my ideas and sentence structure can become sporadic, I apologize guys. I will do my best to present a lot more facts coming up. Some great reads on this topic, you tube videos etc..

reply to post by freedom7


I've wrestled with the concept of Hell for a long time as well. I have to say first that if you're coming at this from a Christian perspective, it's pretty hard, if not impossible, to deny the existence of Hell.

I'll take a few of your points, that I have thought of in the past, and give my take for the sake of discussion:

1. If there really is such a thing as Hell then how is loving God anything other than an act done under duress?

Well, this begs the question doesn't it? If there is no such thing as Hell and everyone goes to heaven no matter what, then free will is still not a factor and, in fact, even less of a factor than if Hell exists. This is true whether Hell is some kind of soul death, vague separation from God or the literal burning lake of fire.

2. The imagery of Hell cannot be literal, the Bible obviously is trying to convey greater concepts when it describes Hell.

This also doesn't get us very far. Of course the descriptions of fire, etc, are symbolic, just as descriptions of Heaven are symbolic. Whatever lies beyond our physical universe is almost by definition beyond our comprehension right now. But the fact that we can all agree that the wording isn't literal doesn't mean that any interpretation that is closer to the literal interpretation is automatically wrong the minute you dream up something that is plausible but further.

It says "fire" and you say "that's obviously symbolic so it's probably soul death." Well...why? Why not some kind of unimaginable eternal torment that's akin to fire, but still indescribable without metaphor? I can easily go further than you and say "soul death? now you're just using imagery from our finite life on earth, clearly it has to be something EVEN FURTHER from the metaphors used...like...reincarnation!!!"

See, you can't eliminate the whole category of eternal torture just because we agree that the imagery it uses to describe the eternal torture are not literal. The idea can still be literal.

Besides, the idea that just being extinguished from existence is more merciful than eternal suffering is purely speculative. You and I cannot comprehend either one of those two concepts fully. Surely, if you believed in no afterlife, you could admit that living here on Earth in less than optimal conditions might be preferable to death. It all depends on what the eternal suffering is.

3. Adam and Eve and 11th Century Chinese people didn't go to Hell

This just asks the question, "How can a God that allows these people to go to Hell be just? Be the true God?" Well, what does that have to do with the existence of Hell? Maybe these people didn't go to Hell. Maybe there are mechanisms for salvation that we are not considering. Maybe God is infinitely just and the only reason you consider them as damned to Hell in the world view you're criticizing is because you and I, as people with knowledge, will never understand the ways that God can reveal himself to people who are absent the knowledge we possess.

And considering my point #2, your solution "Hell is ceasing to exist" is little better. Why should all those cavemen and Plato cease to exist the same as Hitler just because of when they were born? Doesn't seem anymore just to me than Hell.

You're raising a good point about who gets to GO TO HEAVEN, but that question doesn't really inform us on the nature of what happens to those who don't go to heaven.

4. Now here's my big reveal

I actually agree with your conclusion. That Hell is ceasing to exist. I argue with you because I am entirely unconvinced of what I believe. I believe that I believe this only because it deeply frightens me that I could for the rest of time and beyond.

Good post. Hope you reply.

correction " If we Fail by casting out judgement on others" This Is warned against by the lord

The concept of hell.

Concepts have the curious distinction of often making it to realisation stage. This happened quite some time ago...and it wouldn't be complete, without a nemesis, to a balancing saviour, or narrow path - draw your own conclusions - or, work your way backwards to a point that makes sense...

...or, stop on this one...

Almighty (with might over all), Omnipotent (having unlimited power), Omniscient (infinitely wise)...creator and source of All...

...damn, I think I created something that can challenge me...makes perfect sense...not...

Who 'created' hell? By dent of process, we at least see the 'concept' (already created) being perpetuated by those that would move away from the 'concept' of Almightiness...and embrace, part-almightiness...that would seem to be the point to the story of Louie Cipher, who embraced this philosophy...

Å99

reply to post by freedom7

Is the literal fire and brimstone concept of Hell being an endless torture chamber for all of eternity valid?

The Bible does not state anywhere that man will burn in hell forever, this is brought on by the church to instill fear.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Rex282

 

If hell is a 404, then your whole last post doesn't make any sense.

Actually, it makes perfect sense. Universal salvation, aka Universal Reconciliation, requires the non-existence of Hell and eternal torment in it.

But if you cease to exist, that is hardly being saved. Salvation means having eternal life correct? So a 404 is basically the complete opposite of that.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

But if you cease to exist, that is hardly being saved. Salvation means having eternal life correct? So a 404 is basically the complete opposite of that.

I'm saying Hell does not exist. I am not an annihilationist - we cease to exist when we die, and that is what the resurrection is for. Salvation does (in part) mean eternal life - much more of course, but it does mean that, and in time, it come true for everybody. Did you not know that Death and Hell are to be thrown into the Lake of Fire, and that the last enemy to be defeated is Death? Tell me, how can anyone still be dead and in Hell after those things happen? No, when the last wisps of darkness pass away, there is only the Kingdom of Heaven.

As a Christian, this doctrine always a) bothered me and b) perplexed me. I tried to figure out how it could originate from a God who IS love.

While I am still researching this topic, I am currently (though subject to change) leaning between annihilationist theory and ultimate reconciliation.

From what I've gathered in my studies is that the actual word for hell did not exist in the original scriptures.

Here are three sites that address the different takes on the doctrine:

"Traditional" teaching:
www.clarifyingchristianity.com...

Annihilationist Teaching
www.helltruth.com...

Christian Universalism:
www.tentmaker.org...


ALL 3 (even Christian Universalism) believe in salvation only through Jesus Christ. (Christian Universalism is often confused with Unitarian Universalism.)

Traditional teachings often lean towards the unsaved going to hell for eternity, a torturous place of woe and fire where the soul is conscious and can feel pain. There are different teachings concerning exactly how one is saved. Most argue that it is faith alone, while others argue that lordship salvation, rituals, baptism, etc. are required for salvation. There are also different arguments concerning who is "exempt" from hell. (Israel, babies, children, "age of accountance", mentally ill, someone who is born in a faraway tribe who never heard of Jesus,etc.)

Annihilationists usually believe that the "wages of sin is death" meaning a soul that is unsaved could not exist in any afterlife abode (heaven or hell) since they are doomed to completely perish and will therefore not be immortal. They also argue that "hell and death" are both thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation (and believe they are both completely destroyed). According to many annihilationists,unsaved do go into the fire,but they are completely destroyed and cease to exist.


Christian Universalists believe in the ultimate end, Christ will save everyone. Some even believe the fallen angels will be saved (not all believe this). Most believe in a purgatory state of punishment or difficult punishing "cleansing" of the unsaved. Many believe there will be punishments (just not eternal) and that the (originally) saved will get rewarded in God's kingdom. They believe salvation is only achieved through Jesus Christ and that everyone will need to accept them before entering His kingdom. Most do believe in sharing faith and witnessing and don't take the "well I don't need to do anything since I am saved already" route. They DO believe in (non eternal) divine punishment and serving God because they love Him and see him as King, not out of fear of hell.

reply to post by PrinceAdam


PrinceAdam:

I was raised in a Damnationist church, attended an Annihilationist church for a few years, and finally found my personal pearl of great price, Universal Reconciliation. In fact, I am a member over at the Tentmaker forums. Study and show yourself approved, deciding which alternative is most consistent with God's justice, mercy, and love. Keep in mind that the Bible seems to teach all three, depending on which scriptures you most notice. However, I believe UR is the most consistent, and possesses the best evidence.

@Laz

I frequent the forum as a lurker. : ) I'm still not ready to commit to one(UR) or the other(A) just yet, but I've read some things there that really make sense to me. I'm still researching and educating myself, but I think Tentmaker is a really fascinating site and they make some good points to ponder.

It's funny, I've found out about 5 of my" traditional" Christian friends have been closet Christian Universalists for a long time now. Some pretty devout relatives in my church confessed they were Annihilionists...I was pretty surprised.