UFO Testimonies By Cosmonauts and Astronauts and U.S. Presidents

reply to post by draknoir2


Yes but can you prove that Godzilla does not exist? Can you prove that ALL cases where there are some highly strange tail just hallucinated Godzilla? I just totally demolished you.

reply to post by EnPassant

Read it. Very interesting. But can such effects be used to refute every abduction memory? How could the original (early cases) abduction memories be imprinted when there was no precedent? If the early precedents are true we can safely assume that most of the memories of later cases are true - 90%? 70%? After all, this aberration only affects the memory in part. It is a complex issue...

no idea. Do you think dreams are real in this sense also?

ZetaRediculian
reply to post by draknoir2

 

Yes but can you prove that Godzilla does not exist? Can you prove that ALL cases where there are some highly strange tail just hallucinated Godzilla? I just totally demolished you.

Please clarify what you mean by "highly strange tail". :-)


Seriously, though... I'm beginning to get that deja vu feeling all over again. Are there really that many here with the exact same screwed up concept of burden of proof employing the exact same straw man arguments, or are there just a couple with multiple screen names?

reply to post by HiddenSecrets


Can you please provide sources for each of your quotes?
Even though it may have been done before, I don't think I have seen a post where all the quotes have been laid out like this. Good Job! Just need some sources for each of the quotes..

When I read the OP it only showed 1(one)page. After I replied it is now showing 8(EIGHT)pages. Sorry if Sources have been added

reply to post by draknoir2

Seriously, though... I'm beginning to get that deja vu feeling all over again. Are there really that many here with the exact same screwed up concept of burden of proof employing the exact same straw man arguments, or are there just a couple with multiple screen names?

the same thought has crossed my mind...and then it crossed it again. it is uncanny. my theory is that they read the same books and are living out some fantasy of a classic time in ufo history. The arguments are basically a parroting of some researcher they are pretending to be and anyone who has a different view is immediately a "force fit debunker" regardless of how reasonable the view is. when confronted with a whole new perspective, they don't know what to do so they immediately project that you are saying something that phil klass said because that is all they know. It is quite literally like arguing with a recording made in 1968. maybe they are stealth alien robots made by the McDonalds guy?

VeniVidi
reply to post by HiddenSecrets

 

Can you please provide sources for each of your quotes?
Even though it may have been done before, I don't think I have seen a post where all the quotes have been laid out like this. Good Job! Just need some sources for each of the quotes..

When I read the OP it only showed 1(one)page. After I replied it is now showing 8(EIGHT)pages. Sorry if Sources have been added

edit on 9/11/2013 by VeniVidi because: (no reason given)

all quotes are made up or bogus. now either stay completely off topic or move along.

zetarediculian
reply to post by EnPassant

 

Read it. Very interesting. But can such effects be used to refute every abduction memory? How could the original (early cases) abduction memories be imprinted when there was no precedent? If the early precedents are true we can safely assume that most of the memories of later cases are true - 90%? 70%? After all, this aberration only affects the memory in part. It is a complex issue...

no idea. Do you think dreams are real in this sense also?

It is interesting that our discussion has propelled us into 'spiritual' or multi dimensional reality. This happens a lot in UFO discussions as if things naturally lead in this direction. Yes there may be consciousness of reality in dream states but the brain is asleep and 'clothes' its perceptions in terms of symbolic imagery and familiar stock imagery. I once brought my 3 year old daughter to a Brian Eno exhibition that consisted of fluorescent lights and panels in a darkened room. A week later we were on the town again and my daughter said she did not want to go to the 'church' again. You can see what happened here. She had no internal reference to understand the Eno exhibition and used the stock imagery in her mind to decide that we had been in a church.

EnPassant

 

She had no internal reference to understand the Eno exhibition and used the stock imagery in her mind to decide that we had been in a church.

Well, that's interesting and I think it's an important point for the entire topic. If someone has no internal reference for something they see or experience, their minds will actively put the experience into some context. The more ambiguous the information, the more this will occur. An ambiguous light in the sky becomes a UFO. When it suddenly disappears, it went into stealth mode.

What is preventing your daughter from forming a memory that she was in a church or even a UFO?

Not only can someone completely hallucinate an entire world, they can also "remember" something that never happend.

reply to post by ZetaRediculian


My point is that there IS something there - technically speaking, a ufo - but if the mind cannot comprehend what it is seeing in will 'clothe' it in terms that are familiar and make the thing comprehensible. But the drift of my argument is that there is an objective source for these things. Some people might get a truer picture than others. In the late 19th century they were 'dirigibles' but now that we have advanced in technical understanding we might be seeing them more clearly.

ZetaRediculian

 

An ambiguous light in the sky becomes a UFO. When it suddenly disappears, it went into stealth mode.

What is preventing your daughter from forming a memory that she was in a church or even a UFO?

Not only can someone completely hallucinate an entire world, they can also "remember" something that never happend.

edit on 12-9-2013 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)

Yes, there are glitches in memory and perception but are these things persistent enough to explain sightings? I don't think they are a big factor because if they were very pronounced we'd all be confused all the time and could not function!

(Well I guess a lot of people are very confused but for entirely different reasons! )

EnPassant

ZetaRediculian

 

An ambiguous light in the sky becomes a UFO. When it suddenly disappears, it went into stealth mode.

What is preventing your daughter from forming a memory that she was in a church or even a UFO?

Not only can someone completely hallucinate an entire world, they can also "remember" something that never happend.

edit on 12-9-2013 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)

Yes, there are glitches in memory and perception but are these things persistent enough to explain sightings? I don't think they are a big factor because if they were very pronounced we'd all be confused all the time and could not function!

(Well I guess a lot of people are very confused but for entirely different reasons! )

It would seem so! It's actually hard to imagine that this could go on and that people can actually function. But it does seem to be the case.

Purely hypothetically, Let's take a fighter pilot sent to engage an unknown. They are pumped. I think we would agree? This would mean adrenaline coursing through their system. As pointed out, this causes perceptual issues but at the same time, performance increase.

Less extreme, take one of Obergs re entry events. People report solid structure crafts and others see a reentry event.

Even less extreme which can be seen on a consistant basis around here, photos and videos where people see all kinds of things. For example, someone will be convinced that the object in question is cgi, someone else will know for sure it's a camera glitch and someone else is sure they see an alien craft. Without judging, someone is obviously wrong and, yes, misperceiving but they all function just fine.

The article about memory I posted is eye opening too. After reading it you will wonder how people function.

This thread is way getting off topic.

Nevertheless I should say that not all president quotations are false or bogus.
Take those from Reagan. Although he was probably talking in hypothetical terms, Reagan was broadcasted worlwide on the news.

Here is a british translation of the french COMETA report (sorry Mods but I found this on another site, feel free to deal with this as needed):

www.ufoevidence.org...

The COMETA report is from 1999 and was elaborated with the help from French Air Force officials and CNES the french equivalent of NASA.

Jacques Vallée started his UFO investigations because he had a sighting (1955) and as an astronomer he stranged the behaviour of some of his colleagues regarding the UFO issue.

And you must decentre from the US perspective.
The US has a "collective memory" since the last three decades of the XIX century. Until then, vast portions of today US territory were unhabited by "white men" or belonged to Mexico. What happened before the entire US territory become under federal rule is lost (in a pratical way).
You are too much centred on the typical aspects of US cases.

We are talking about a phenomenon that has been going on for decades (centuries, milennia perhaps) and is of global proportions in a time long before the Internet, computers, nukes and jet aircraft and revealing that the "contamination" aspect wasn´t present.

There are sightings/events that simply... defy your understanding/perception of reality.

reply to post by meaningless333

There are sightings/events that simply... defy your understanding/perception of reality.

I think that's the point. Nobody really understands.

ZetaRediculian

EnPassant

ZetaRediculian

 

An ambiguous light in the sky becomes a UFO. When it suddenly disappears, it went into stealth mode.

What is preventing your daughter from forming a memory that she was in a church or even a UFO?

Not only can someone completely hallucinate an entire world, they can also "remember" something that never happend.

edit on 12-9-2013 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)

Yes, there are glitches in memory and perception but are these things persistent enough to explain sightings? I don't think they are a big factor because if they were very pronounced we'd all be confused all the time and could not function!

(Well I guess a lot of people are very confused but for entirely different reasons! )

It would seem so! It's actually hard to imagine that this could go on and that people can actually function. But it does seem to be the case.

Purely hypothetically, Let's take a fighter pilot sent to engage an unknowyn. They are pumped. I think we would agree? This would mean adrenaline coursing through their system. As pointed out, this causes perceptual issues but at the same time, performance increase.

Less extreme, take one of Obergs re entry events. People report solid structure crafts and others see a reentry event.

Even less extreme which can be seen on a consistant basis around here, photos and videos where people see all kinds of things. For example, someone will be convinced that the object in question is cgi, someone else will know for sure it's a camera glitch and someone else is sure they see an alien craft. Without judging, someone is obviously wrong and, yes, misperceiving but they all function just fine.

The article about memory I posted is eye opening too. After reading it you will wonder how people function.

Yes I read Sacks' article. It is pertinent but by what margin? It might be difficult but you should try to get a copy of Randles' book. She goes into these questions about perception in a very, well, perceptve way and tries to find what are the chances of anomoluous perception. She also cites experiments that were done in this area. A very important book. www.ebay.com...

She answers your question about pilots being pumped by saying if that was the case the skies should have been full of ufos on D day as the troops prepared to land.



This book might be easier to get - www.amazon.com...

reply to post by EnPassant

Yes I read Sacks' article. It is pertinent but by what margin?

I have NO idea! That's the point.

She answers your question about pilots being pumped by saying if that was the case the skies should have been full of ufos on D day as the troops prepared to land.

I don't buy that logic. Nobody is claiming a 1 for 1 effect like that. There may be several factors involved and UFOs would be the least of their concern. I am certain if I was about to possibly die, i could care less about the ambiguous glowing purple orb thing flying around.

Right now, I am currently looking at pilot NDE and OBEs. Never mind the UFOs, pilots are leaving their bodies mid flight due to g-loc and its pretty common. Now that's highly strange.
www.near-death.com...
And fighter pilots have been given amphetamines by the US air force to enhance their performance for the last 50 years. Side effects include possible hallucinations.www.drugfree.org...

The point being that fighter pilots could be going through a lot of states of consciousness in any given flight and its well documented. It doesn't prove one sighting but its something to keep in mind as you read the ufo literature. Of course, we are not privy to information on what is going on with any pilot during a sighting.

It doesn't prove any sighting but it does blow out any argument that they would be grounded for a simple misperception of a UFO. That's the least of their problems.

I'm sure I will cross that randles book at some point.

reply to post by draknoir2


concerning your idea about Kenneth Arnold's flying saucer template, you might be interested in this book which recounts disc-like objects before K.A's sighting (chapters 1and 2)


www.nicap.org...

reply to post by EnPassant


Read that a while back, if i recall it outlines a hypothesis that the ET hypothesis was credible even before blue book tried to buried it.. Good find..

ZetaRediculian
reply to post by EnPassant

 

Yes I read Sacks' article. It is pertinent but by what margin?

I have NO idea! That's the point.

She answers your question about pilots being pumped by saying if that was the case the skies should have been full of ufos on D day as the troops prepared to land.

I don't buy that logic. Nobody is claiming a 1 for 1 effect like that. There may be several factors involved and UFOs would be the least of their concern. I am certain if I was about to possibly die, i could care less about the ambiguous glowing purple orb thing flying around.

Right now, I am currently looking at pilot NDE and OBEs. Never mind the UFOs, pilots are leaving their bodies mid flight due to g-loc and its pretty common. Now that's highly strange.
www.near-death.com...
And fighter pilots have been given amphetamines by the US air force to enhance their performance for the last 50 years. Side effects include possible hallucinations.www.drugfree.org...

The point being that fighter pilots could be going through a lot of states of consciousness in any given flight and its well documented. It doesn't prove one sighting but its something to keep in mind as you read the ufo literature. Of course, we are not privy to information on what is going on with any pilot during a sighting.

It doesn't prove any sighting but it does blow out any argument that they would be grounded for a simple misperception of a UFO. That's the least of their problems.

I'm sure I will cross that randles book at some point.

Yes i see where your argument is going and were your justifications might be manifesting in regards to the reliability of fighter pilots testimonies or what they witnessed as being nothing more than hallucinations from amphetamines but are you claiming that for EVERY such fighter pilot case??

What of the radar back up detection's that were the PRIMARY reason that the pilots were scrambled in the first place, i really do hope that you are not suggesting that radar operators or the the radars themselves are hallucination to or taking amphetamines. Sorry but your assumptions might be credited for some cases but not those with radar back up detection evidence, surely you can see that.

K-PAX-PROT


Yes i see where your argument is going and were your justifications might be manifesting in regards to the reliability of fighter pilots testimonies or what they witnessed as being nothing more than hallucinations from amphetamines but are you claiming that for EVERY such fighter pilot case??

I'm not sure if you are a troll or just ..challenged. First part of my post is " I have no idea". Point is UFOs aren't as much of a concern as friendly fire and dying from g-loc. did you read even one link I posted? If not, I don't have much more to say. Mispercieving something as a UFO seems kind of pale in comparison compared to leaving your body and cruising the astral plane mid flight which apparently happens pretty often? Not sure about the amphetamine comment if that's all you read. But would we know if any of these fantastic cases had anything to do with that? Absolutely not.

What of the radar back up detection's that were the PRIMARY reason that the pilots were scrambled in the first place, i really do hope that you are not suggesting that radar operators or the the radars themselves are hallucination to or taking amphetamines. Sorry but your assumptions might be credited for some cases but not those with radar back up detection evidence, surely you can see that.

Honestly? It would take a lifetime of explaining this to you and fending off all the rediculous attacks. First you have to establish there are such cases that are well documented and verified. The most documented and credible radar case was the JAL Alaska flight. Did you read that thread? Go figure out your own how its possible to occur. That would mean catching up on the last 45 years off basic psychology. I honestly don't have it in me. But think about it. And this is as much as I'm going to say about it because it will blow your mind. It's called "suggestion". It's really not that difficult to find information on this stuff which means you have to completely and actively ignore it.

K-PAX-PROTH: "Yes i see where your argument is going and were your justifications might be manifesting in regards to the reliability of fighter pilots testimonies or what they witnessed as being nothing more than hallucinations from amphetamines but are you claiming that for EVERY such fighter pilot case?? "

Nothing more than a hallucination? The medical profession, in its wisdom and reductive materialism, would have us believe that hallucinations are purely in the mind but there may be an external reality behind them. I once read a report on out of body experiments where the subjects were seeing beings and the experimenter came to the conclusion the what the subjects were seeing was real. The OBE enables the mind to see the astral plane? Sometimes abductees say that when the abduction begins they feel that they are in two places at the same time, as if they are leaving their bodies and the brain is seeing physical reality while the mind is on another level. This suggests that OBEs and abductions are similar experiences. So,even the pilots may be seeing real things.