Evolution Vs. God

Originally posted by boncho

Phenom187

UnifiedSerenity

Yes, please do show us the observable change in kind and since you cannot observe 60 million years ago, please show it happening today. Finches are still finches, fish are still fish, and bacteria are still bacteria.

I love when people ask for current examples of evolution, because then I simply site this example: Are you aware that due to the over use antibiotics various forms of bacteria such Staph, Salmonella, and Ghonorrhea, have become immune to many anitbiotics. Do you know how that happens? I'm glad you asked. Bacterial DNA sometimes can undergo mutations, just like the ones that cause tumors in our cells. Sometimes those mutations can result in abnormalities result in antibiotic resistant qualities, which are passed on to the next generation, as the use of anitbiotics increase, only bacteria that have the mutation which makes them antibiotic resistant are able to survive and thrive, (survival of the fittest anyone?) and that drum roll, gong is an example of modern day evolution. No applause necessary. How's that for a first post?

No, no. Surely that must be satan trying to snuff out people who fail to bleach their countertops.

You've just left Unified Serenity an open goal. Domestos et al only kill 99.9% of germs so the remaining 0.1% must be intelligently designed.

Cypress

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to post by King Loki

 

How can a THEORY be proven fact? So Creationists don't understand Science? Look up a man named Kent Hovind... he is a Creationist and has forgotten more about science than you will ever know

You are seriously not going to use Horvind as a credible source?!?! He's no different than siting the World News Daily as a credible publication. There are several threads on this site throughout the years showing him to be nothing more than a con-artist.

edit on 30-8-2013 by Cypress because: (no reason given)

Demonizing someone does not prove your point. I don't agree with Hovind 100%, but I can see his points. Are you saying that nothing he says is based on anything true? Please point to that which you object besides he's a Christian and says the Earth is 6000 years old and man ran around with dinosaurs.

He makes very valid points to show the errors in evolution teachings. Show me what your issues are with Hovind please.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

Please point to that which you object besides he's a Christian and says the Earth is 6000 years old and man ran around with dinosaurs.

He makes very valid points to show the errors in evolution teachings. Show me what your issues are with Hovind please.

If his findings led him to hold those beliefs, then I too would be greatly suspicious of his research. And regardless of the errors he may or may not have successfully pointed out, I'm sure he has thus far failed to substitute a worthwhile theory.

And if I am incorrect in that assumption, could you direct me to this theory that is supposedly worthy of replacing the evolutionary theory? I think we would very much like to examine it for...errors.

UnifiedSerenity
reply to post by Demoncreeper

 

Thank you DC for your comments as well. I don't think it's name calling but observing the outcome of this documentary and I truly do hope you do watch it later. I am like you, a "recovering" Catholic. Well, I am not Catholic at all anymore, and I am a terrible Christian. I upset most in the "Christian" community because I have spent the last 25+ years studying the bible and other esoteric texts for myself, and I often upset bible believing Christians who have blind faith in what they are taught in Church.

I am not saying the bible is wrong, but it certainly has been used to control people and draw them into errant thinking by misapplication of the scriptures. I think if we truly will open our hearts and minds, study the text in it's original languages (not hard, just download e-sword for free) we can see where things have been used to fulfill a political agenda through religious pressures.

I will submit to you that this was done on purpose to both gain control of the world and now to drive confused people away from the bible and God by the very evil works done by these men through the Church and it was not in the will of God or Jesus at all.

My question to you is would you find it a sad shame had you been kidnapped as a young child by someone who hated your mom and dad, and then spent their entire life tearing them down in your eyes so that at some point you murdered them only to find out later that the real monster was the one who pretended to be your parent but who ultimately just wanted to ruin you and hurt your mom and dad?

In love for you and everyone seeking truth, I share this with you. God truly does love you, and I hope somehow your confusion is lifted.

i think you made a valid choice to study other esoteric texts. its a necessity i believe to get as many pointers/ideas on what is being said in any religious work. due to attempts to convey the meaning/understanding of infinity by finite minds.
i dont have time for the vid yet but i'll mention a few ideas.
evolution is necessarily presupposes involution. logic/discrimination shows examples in nature. trees form seeds which grow into trees which form seeds. species form eggs which grow into species etc. if something did evolve into a different form with different characteristics, it would happen mentally before it manifested physically and would not be seen to be gradual. the need for longer ears for the rabbit would be gradually processed mentally which would change the dna and allow the rabbit to grow longer ears. the shorter eared rabbit would die out because predators would capitolise on that weakness. but that does not prove evolution. it would reveal a law in action. a law that was held in place by the un-nameable source of all which can be referred to as "god".
not the religious anthropomorphic image, but the source of all. (SOA). soa is infinite which is beyond our comprehension. any apparent evolution is already layed down by the source. the possabilities always governed by law. the outcome always predictable. the changes always perceived by the limited mind. but the "real"; the SOA, always the same, eternal, unchanging. in him we live and move and have our being. everything that appears created was made by him. everything. its a play of light on a cosmic curtain. we have a choice to identify with our body/personality, or focus on the SOA and forget our primitive mental ideas/questions of "how did it all begin?" "what sustains god"? why is there apparent injustice when all is sustained by the SOA? "is evolution real"? that focus will be the stick that gets the funeral pyre burning fiercely until only the SOA remains and our uncertaincy is gone with our personality. at that stage we realize we lived an illusion if anything is remembered at all, and only the SOA exists. we can have that as soon as we tire of what is external to our heart centre. our SOA. as an indian poet put it;-
you suffer from yourselves, none else compels, to whirl upon the wheel of life and hug and kiss its spokes of agony. m2c

reply to post by AfterInfinity


So, you are admitting to the errors I have pointed out about evolution and you just want me to prove how we got here is that it in a nut shell?

I choose to accept the glory in nature, the Fibonacci Sequence, the golden ratio and the word of God as revealing how God created us, our world and all that is in our universe.

How do you explain the Fibonacci Sequence and golden ratio as displayed on a Universe scale, planetary scale, biological scale including our DNA? You think that was random chance?

UnifiedSerenity
reply to post by Demoncreeper

 

Thank you DC for your comments as well. I don't think it's name calling but observing the outcome of this documentary and I truly do hope you do watch it later. I am like you, a "recovering" Catholic. Well, I am not Catholic at all anymore, and I am a terrible Christian. I upset most in the "Christian" community because I have spent the last 25+ years studying the bible and other esoteric texts for myself, and I often upset bible believing Christians who have blind faith in what they are taught in Church.

I am not saying the bible is wrong, but it certainly has been used to control people and draw them into errant thinking by misapplication of the scriptures. I think if we truly will open our hearts and minds, study the text in it's original languages (not hard, just download e-sword for free) we can see where things have been used to fulfill a political agenda through religious pressures.

I will submit to you that this was done on purpose to both gain control of the world and now to drive confused people away from the bible and God by the very evil works done by these men through the Church and it was not in the will of God or Jesus at all.

My question to you is would you find it a sad shame had you been kidnapped as a young child by someone who hated your mom and dad, and then spent their entire life tearing them down in your eyes so that at some point you murdered them only to find out later that the real monster was the one who pretended to be your parent but who ultimately just wanted to ruin you and hurt your mom and dad?

In love for you and everyone seeking truth, I share this with you. God truly does love you, and I hope somehow your confusion is lifted.

You haven't studied the Bible for 25+ years because by the statements you made show how ignorant you are to it's content. Like to say the Bible was written to control the masses is ridiculous and baseless. Like someone who was familiar with Acts would know the early church members were persecuted and executed by Rome because they would not say Ceasar is lord. So tell me how a belief system that was punishable by death was a tool to control? Pretty sure having Christians mauled to death by wild animals was a message to the rest of the Romans. And do not claim to believe in God and yet somehow think it isn't possible for him to conserve his Word. Authorized KJV is the preserved Word in the English language. Stop reading the NIV which omits 26,000 words and was translated by lesbians. Too many people on this site claim to know about Christianity, but they always have a watered down, spineless theology. The Bible says it is not for personal interpretation, which means it isn't cryptic nor speaking in parables unless it clearly states it. Like in Matthew you know when Jesus is telling a parable. Otherwise the Bible is to be taken literally

reply to post by Hxc408


Would you care to have a biblical debate? If you don't think the Church (RCC) did not take over and twist the truth to further gain control and subjugate the world then you have not studied history or how badly they butcher the truth of the world in the bible. I use all sorts of bible translations, but my preferred text while not perfect as it's translated from the original is the KJV. There are plenty of bad word choices in it though.

I find it most humerous how all the Hebrew names were changed to be more pleasing to the goyim. One of my very favorite texts to read is the Jewish New Testament put back into Jewish terms by Stern.

I have that particular one imported into my E-Sword Program which anyone can download free of charge and learn what the original text says. You can also import your favorite bible texts and commentaries to aid in study.

We don't have to agree, but you have zero knowledge of my past, my studies etc.. So, if you want to debate a bible topic you disagree with me on, start a thread and I will be glad to debate you there.

Originally posted by King Loki

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to post by King Loki

 

How can a THEORY be proven fact? So Creationists don't understand Science? Look up a man named Kent Hovind... he is a Creationist and has forgotten more about science than you will ever know

You have no idea about science ... the word theory in the scientific community means its a fact, but is left open for further understanding of the universe if big changes ( would have to be massive) of our understanding comes up in the future.

(you learn this on day 1 of studying any science .. so the fact you don't knows this proves you have never actually officially studied any scientific field)

when scientists are not sure or in layman's terms have a "theory" they say its a hypothesis ...

So yes anything in science that says theory is pretty much a fact

Any questions ?? ...Do you need anymore basic general knowledge. ??

edit on 30/8/13 by King Loki because: (no reason given)

Where did you receive your education from? Let me guess... By attending Richard Dawkins' sermons?

FACT is something that holds true forever or sufficiently long enough, whereas THEORY may not and often it does not. THEORY accept changes to its formulation, whereas FACT does not.

Do you believe that all scientific theories formed in the beginning of the 19th hold true today?

Apparently you do and that must include the theory of light. Let me introduce to a guy who will prove your definition of fact and theory wrong.
einstein.biz...

reply to post by tremex


A Theory is backed up by lots of proven facts, a hypothesis needs no facts, just some decent reasoning - but if you hadn't based your reasoning on proven facts you'd be laughed out of the lab...

Forgot about the TOPIC!! This is the WORST, most cringing, aggressive BS Creationist video I've ever seen selectively edited... No Scientists would ever make a documentary like this HIT PIECE.. TPTB in The Churches That Be need to stop BEING - PERIOD... Evolution is complicated, asking for cheap sound bites or lengthy explainations you can cut to a few thoughtful pauses that make the Scientist seem confused is an INSULT TO PERSONAL EXPRESSION... If I was on this video I'd be MAD AS HELL!!!

---- This is a spoof designed to make X-Tians / Creationists seem like complete a-holes - surely - that's all the Creationist Movement is in my mind - an efficient mechanism to make X-Tians seem like old-fashioned, bigoted, close-minded IDIOTS... How many people interviewed are BIOLOGISTS for a start, let alone evolution experts (yes, it's not quite as simple as 'survival of the 'fittest for their environment''

Transitional beings and fossils are everywhere...

GOD is the WORST part of all religions... The BIGGEST obsticle to the study of the normal and the paranormal... It is the most far-fetched un-proven, unprovable load of MIND-CONTROL tosh ever INVENTED BY MEN-DICTATORS... Believe...... in yourself and what you KNOW TO BE TRUE, Agnostics

Originally posted by PrivateSi
reply to post by tremex

 

A Theory is backed up by lots of proven facts, a hypothesis needs no facts, just some decent reasoning - but if you hadn't based your reasoning on proven facts you'd be laughed out of the lab...

Proven facts? Facts are not proven, obviously, events called facts are observed. Finch is a finch unless you observe otherwise - meaning a different kind of finches cannot have offsprings. That' was the point of the first part of the video before it stumbled over what it laid down.

Forgot about the TOPIC!! This is the WORST, most cringing, aggressive BS Creationist video I've ever seen selectively edited... No Scientists would ever make a documentary like this HIT PIECE.. TPTB in The Churches That Be need to stop BEING - PERIOD... Evolution is complicated, asking for cheap sound bites or lengthy explainations you can cut to a few thoughtful pauses that make the Scientist seem confused is an INSULT TO PERSONAL EXPRESSION... If I was on this video I'd be MAD AS HELL!!!

---- This is a spoof designed to make X-Tians / Creationists seem like complete a-holes - surely - that's all the Creationist Movement is in my mind - an efficient mechanism to make X-Tians seem like old-fashioned, bigoted, close-minded IDIOTS... How many people interviewed are BIOLOGISTS for a start, let alone evolution experts (yes, it's not quite as simple as 'survival of the 'fittest for their environment''

Transitional beings and fossils are everywhere...

GOD is the WORST part of all religions... The BIGGEST obsticle to the study of the normal and the paranormal... It is the most far-fetched un-proven, unprovable load of MIND-CONTROL tosh ever INVENTED BY MEN-DICTATORS... Believe...... in yourself and what you KNOW TO BE TRUE, Agnostics

Sounds so familiar. Mr. Dawkins? Is that you?

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity

Cypress

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to post by King Loki

 

How can a THEORY be proven fact? So Creationists don't understand Science? Look up a man named Kent Hovind... he is a Creationist and has forgotten more about science than you will ever know

You are seriously not going to use Horvind as a credible source?!?! He's no different than siting the World News Daily as a credible publication. There are several threads on this site throughout the years showing him to be nothing more than a con-artist.

edit on 30-8-2013 by Cypress because: (no reason given)

Demonizing someone does not prove your point. I don't agree with Hovind 100%, but I can see his points. Are you saying that nothing he says is based on anything true? Please point to that which you object besides he's a Christian and says the Earth is 6000 years old and man ran around with dinosaurs.

He makes very valid points to show the errors in evolution teachings. Show me what your issues are with Hovind please.

Hovind is a dead horse around here that has been beaten by just about any rational thinking mind who's walked into the religious forum. Usually when I see "Hovind" posted in a thread, I assume someone is simply trolling...

I'll jump in here for a sec, but let's address the first thing you said:

How can a THEORY be proven fact?

Because a theory in scientific term is not the same as "theory" in laymans terms. First you should understand the difference.

In science, a theory is not a guess, not a hunch. It's a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations.2

...

Some people think that in science, you have a theory, and once it's proven, it becomes a law. That's not how it works. In science, we collect facts, or observations, we use laws to describe them, and a theory to explain them. You don't promote a theory to a law by proving it. A theory never becomes a law.
www.notjustatheory.com...

But evolution is "just a theory" right? Bunch of BS "Evil-lutionsits" trying to warp your virgin brain. To the hell with scientists, not like any of their theories have ever panned out:

Gravity: It's only a theory

[Textbook disclaimers are down, but not out. This satirical look at "only a theory" disclaimers imagines what might happen if advocates applied the same logic to the theory of gravitation that they do to the theory of evolution.]

All physics textbook should include this warning label:

This textbook contains material on Gravity. Universal Gravity is a theory, not a fact, regarding the natural law of attraction. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.
ncse.com...

And as for:

Look up a man named Kent Hovind... he is a Creationist and has forgotten more about science than you will ever know

Totally laughable as he got his "doctorate" from a diploma mill.... And didn't he end up in jail for fraud & tax evasion?

There is NO EVIDENCE that Kent Hovind has more than a college sophomore level of course work in ANY science. There is NO EVIDENCE from his thesis that he is widely-read in the areas of evolution, astronomy, geology, paleontology or even the history of science beyond what is written in a few young-Earth creationist books. There is ABUNDANT EVIDENCE that the requirements for a Ph.D. degree from Patriot University fall far below those of typical secular or religious institutions. Ask yourself whether you would visit a medical doctor, an auto mechanic, a plumber, or an investment counsellor with similar dubious credentials. If so, then Hovind is your science guy! Or see him for what he is, the snake-oil salesman, peddling salvation and pseudo science in the late 20th century and even unto the 21st century (Link to archived dissertation).
projects.usao.edu...

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

So, you are admitting to the errors I have pointed out about evolution and you just want me to prove how we got here is that it in a nut shell?

Not exactly. I am admitting the evolutionary theory is not perfect. That's why it's called a theory. And I would like for you to prove that your theory is better than the theory is evolution.

I choose to accept the glory in nature, the Fibonacci Sequence, the golden ratio and the word of God as revealing how God created us, our world and all that is in our universe.

So far, you're not convincing me. I'm not sure if you're convincing anyone who was not already convinced.

How do you explain the Fibonacci Sequence and golden ratio as displayed on a Universe scale, planetary scale, biological scale including our DNA? You think that was random chance?

Any organism employing math ineffectively will not live to pass on that trait.

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity
This recent short documentary is really upsetting the evolutionist community. I found it an excellent example of listening to the evolution believers as they try to explain evolution and that it's a belief system. Their cognitive dissonance is quite amazing to watch in progress. I can see why this is really upsetting the Darwinian fans.

Now they are demanding the cut pieces that the documentary is made from. They don't demand this sort of footage from other works, yet they are trying to imply the documentary is leaving out things that would prove their theory. The Blaze has an article up about this documentary and the controversy it has created.

I just watched that video because I was hoping for some decent arguments from a Creationists point of view, but was sorely disappointed. Although I agreed with some aspects of what he said, most notably how you can't create something from nothing, I already was aware of this argument from Professor Krauss who proved that something can come from nothing. I would love for there to be a God as described in Theology but part of me says that if that God was so wonderful and perfect, how did he not foresee the problems of today? I'm of the opinion that we rely too heavily on external factors to sort out our problems when we're perfectly capable of creating paradise on Earth ourselves without the need for any divine or supernatural forces.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

How do you explain the Fibonacci Sequence and golden ratio as displayed on a Universe scale, planetary scale, biological scale including our DNA? You think that was random chance?

Any organism employing math ineffectively will not live to pass on that trait.

So, you think little animals are taking math class?

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


You are a little animal compared to an elephant, rhino, hippo, whale, but much bigger than a squirrel.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

 

You are a little animal compared to an elephant, rhino, hippo, whale, but much bigger than a squirrel.

Yes, now tell me how I made up my mind to make my body fit Fibonacci please. How do snails and plants do it? I just am and no amount of mental gymnastics allows us to say something like Evolution which is random chance follows precise mathematical systems.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

So, you think little animals are taking math class?

No, I'm saying it's counterproductive for any organism to defy the laws of physics.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

 

So, you think little animals are taking math class?

No, I'm saying it's counterproductive for any organism to defy the laws of physics.

it is impossible for an organism to defy the laws of physics, but it is possible for an organism to see beyond these "laws" and change its interactive relationship with them, and evolve.. a creature is a product of physical laws, and physical laws are a product of the creature's perspective of them..

Originally posted by tachyonmind

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

 

So, you think little animals are taking math class?

No, I'm saying it's counterproductive for any organism to defy the laws of physics.

it is impossible for an organism to defy the laws of physics, but it is possible for an organism to see beyond these "laws" and change its interactive relationship with them, and evolve.. a creature is a product of physical laws, and physical laws are a product of the creature's perspective of them..

edit on 31-8-2013 by tachyonmind because: (no reason given)

perhaps in a future world it will be shown that mind can alter physical laws? alter dna? as suggested by jesus --"which of you by taking thought can add 1 cubit to his height?"

if an organism "can see beyond" and change anything; the laws/ability to do so are already in existence, as designed by the source of all. what appears as evolution is a small snapshot of ongoing creation/manifestation/shaping/modification of light/mind/idea.