Faith Healer Convinces Followers To Never Vaccinate, Now Church The Center Of Measles Outbreak (VIDE

Originally posted by rickymouse
reply to post by Pardon?

 

Actually, I study this stuff extensively, mostly studying the research that backs the interpretations. I rarely watch You tube videos, I do it the hard way by studying science. I do not object to science, I object to the misuse of science and the twisting of the research by some who desire to gain either prestige or money.

I understand the immune system better than most new doctors, I have more research into this subject than I would have received if I had finished medical school. Way more. I have more to compare the information to than a new doctor because I have seen and heard many peoples symptoms for years and have experienced sickness myself.

I also research all the medicines and the basis of vaccines. I look for alternative ways to treat or CURE disease.

I understand your concern of seeing the death and the problems that occurred, but remember, you were only seeing a few of the people who had gotten the measles, most handled it fine. Whooping cough is a little different but that vaccine is poor, it doesn't seem to work well, it changes really fast.

edit on 25-8-2013 by rickymouse because: (no reason given)

Your last paragraph is proof of two things.
You don't understand the diseases and you don't understand the rationale of vaccinations.

As for the rest of your self-promotion I would suggest that the only person who thinks you know as much as you do is just you.
Any deaths or complications from measles and whooping cough can be avoided irrespective of the amount of people who contract them and are "fine".
That's the point you seem to be spectacularly missing.

If you have studied this extensively as you say you would be able to see through the misuse of science, the misinformation and fudged results that the anti-vax fraternity use fore the sole purpose of gaining money from compensation claims.

Originally posted by Awen24
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

As a Christian, and as a fairly logical human, I'd just like to respond with an emphatic:

LOL!

I'm totally amazed, this is ATS and someone has the gall to put "Christian" and "Logical" in the same sentence !

Once again the children will suffer and the jesus godman observes his handywork from his throne of indolence

I feel bad for all the innocent people that will get sick. But every one of those ignorant crackpots deserve it, and should go to jail/involuntary quarantine for endangering the public's safety.

reply to post by TheComte


how exactly does it endanger the publics safety?

everyone vaccinated should have no concern. it doesnt effect you right? the only people effected are those who choose to be.

Originally posted by LurkingRelentlessly
reply to post by TheComte

 

how exactly does it endanger the publics safety?

everyone vaccinated should have no concern. it doesnt effect you right? the only people effected are those who choose to be.

I posted this on page three of this thread but I'm aware that not everyone (myself included) reads every post so here's my reply to that same statement again.

They pose a threat of transmission when there is disease in that community which then can spread rapidly outside.
They can pass the disease on to babies who are too young for immunizations.
They also pose a threat to children with medical exemptions, including children with leukemia, who cannot be immunized because of their medical condition.
For a very small percentage of children, vaccines will not “take.” These children also are put at risk. The only way we can protect them is to surround them with immunized children.
Children with exemptions can spread disease to such children who are unaware that they are not protected.
Recent outbreaks of pertussis mostly involved children with exemptions. In the measles epidemic, students with personal beliefs exemptions were many times more likely to catch measles than those who were immunized.

This happened in my home town once back in the Victorian days. Some Christian sect began to go on the idea of never having medical care until one day the main leader's daughter became ill and took her to a doctor. Needless to say, the sect disbanded quit soon afterwards lol.

Originally posted by Shiloh7
When I was at school we hardly ever had one single child in the whole school who had any skin diseases or astma and needed inhalers, the kids were healthy, dam lively and pretty fit in those days of diet ignorance and few vaccines - they all seem to have wide ranging health problems today yet we have all this extra health help from Big Pharma

If I was motovated by money and power and was in charge of a pharmaceutical company, I would design my drugs so they would cause illness further down the track so my customers would keep coming back.

Just saying...

Originally posted by NuclearPaul

Originally posted by Shiloh7
When I was at school we hardly ever had one single child in the whole school who had any skin diseases or astma and needed inhalers, the kids were healthy, dam lively and pretty fit in those days of diet ignorance and few vaccines - they all seem to have wide ranging health problems today yet we have all this extra health help from Big Pharma

If I was motovated by money and power and was in charge of a pharmaceutical company, I would design my drugs so they would cause illness further down the track so my customers would keep coming back.

Just saying...

Yep apsolutely. The worst ones are anti-psychotics and anti-depressants. They seem to strip the brain of its ability to self regulate so once a patient is on them, they are on them more or less for their lifetime.

reply to post by TheMagus

you should look up "correlation does not imply causality"

And you should look up the statistics, and see the dramatic increase in autism-related disorders since around the time those vaccines started spreading like wildfire.

There certainly have been cases of brain damage linked to vaccines - but the risk of brain damage from any vaccine is orders of magnitude less than the risk of brain damage from the actual disease.

Says who?

So you are in favour of doing other natural things too? Like no surgery for example? Walking everywhere rather than using motor vehicles? Not taking aspirin for a headache?

I prefer not to take vaccines. That does not imply that I'm Amish.

Don't jump to extremes, it really shows your intelligence.

no brains - but certainly consistency!

Are you eleven years old or what? Name calling and making extreme assumptions?

Is that the best arguing you can do?

Actually, with vaccines, the vast majority of people CAN escape them!

That is what vaccines do!!

That's what they're supposed to do.

Do you believe everything the mainstream tells you?

no - where did I say that? the FACTS are that there were in the order of 500 deaths and 4000 cases of encephalitis due to measles in the US per year pre-vaccine - so you can expect a return to those sort of numbers should the vaccine be not used again.

You didn't say it, you implied it.

Either you're not keeping up with what you're saying, or you simply don't know what you're talking about.

"Massive controversy" is not the same as it being actually true. the controversy is only massive for those who are anti-science.

Would there be a massive controversy about something if there wasn't evidence to the contrary of mainstream beliefs? I suppose there's no evidence of 9/11 being an inside job, either... don't mind the bombs in the basement, or the detonations. Nevermind the defense forces just HAPPENING to be simulating a drill for that exact terrorist attack-type scenario as it was HAPPENING.

Anti-science? Wrong.

Science is what leads us to controversy, and leads us away from mainstream lies.

Hell, even a wikipedia link was provided backing this...

Avoiding the vaccine doesn't avoid the disease - it allows it. How do you not comprehend that??

I was repeating what you implied.

Yep - happy to look in it knowing I am not advocating doing nothing about disease.

what's your excuse?

I think for myself, rather than letting Nightly News think for me.

Failing to recognize your own hypocrisy is what I expect of pseudoscience believers

Right. Becuase I believe differently than you, I'm a hypocrite.

Like I said, gooooood work.

reply to post by LurkingRelentlessly


I see Pardon? has already answered your question. Unfortunately, vaccinations are not 100% effective all the time.

Diseases that were once nearly eradicated by vaccinations are making a comeback as more people forgo vaccines.

www.pkids.org...

reply to post by Pardon?


Hey, I am not against vaccinations, I never have been. There are more problems with combining vaccinations, not really with the vaccinations themselves if given separate.

I am a believer in our right to choose whether we want to take these vaccinations where testing crossing generations has not been done. You have a right to get vaccinated, others have a right not to get vaccinated.

In this particular case involving the faith healer, The faith healer does not have the right to require his followers to avoid the vaccine either. He is being just as much a jerk as the people pushing vaccines as an only option.

You have a right to believe what you want, this is America. I will not push for legislation to restrict vaccines because many people need the vaccines, I cannot tell you who does and who doesn't. There is no law presently that says we have to vaccinate our children, some are required to get into public schools though. Why does this exist, because it is our right to deny something that is not proven to work right. Vaccines can hurt some kids, the numbers I have seen show that the about one percent is equivalent to the number of those who die from the diseases. So now, I think the people pushing these vaccines should be responsible for the kids that are hurt from the vaccines. You are the one who lives in a delusional world, not looking at both sides of the picture. You are looking to reinforce what you believe. I look at both sides and evaluate what I see. I am neutral on vaccinations except for my family, if someone else wants or does not want them that is their right.

My daughter is against vaccinations. I have studied the good and bad about them and advised her to get most of them except the flu shot. I did tell her to get the MMR separated if possible.

I was just at the doctors with my granddaughter, I was there to get my finger bandaged and got the tetnus shot. I talked to the doctor in front of my granddaughter about my reaction to the flu shot and he also talked to my granddaughter about her reaction. He said we do not need a flu shot because we have immunity and that we should not get the flu shot. Yet people who do not have any idea of our immune system or our response to the shot are always trying to shove the "flu shots are necessary" on us. They could kill us.

I evaluate evidence on both sides, not like you seem to be doing. I compare it to my knowledge of my families medical history. You have no knowledge of my family history. I doubt if you even think of the importance of genetics in vaccinations or in medicines. You need to go talk to someone who actually is an expert in these things. Do it with an open mind.

Here is one thing I am sure of. If you steer your immune system to fight something like a specific virus, you are taking power away from your ability to fight something like....cancer. If you are sure that you will be getting the virus, that is not a problem, but if you are doing it just in case it can be a problem. It works the other way also, if you are eating a lot of foods that stimulate you to fight cancer, you are increasing your risk of getting other diseases because the body is focusing on cancer killing. What happens to your immunity when taking chemo drugs. I understand this from reading research and testing on myself. Without the testing I could not comprehend this. If you decide to boost your immune system chemicals to fight everything and no problems exist, these chemicals in the immune system can become a problem, especially if you already have immunity. That is basically what some would call autoimmune disease, these chemicals start to kill healthy cells.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

the richest and most technically advanced country in the world is allowing itself to slide back into the middle ages

i don't know about U.S> being "richest" anymore.

I'd definitely do not consider US most technically advanced. We don't have CERN, fastest internet speeds are in Japan, bullet train in Japan, Some cities outside of US are goin all elctric on their vehicles, GErmany stated they'll be nuke free by 2020.

I See U.S.on a major decline, and those fundy McChurchy Flanders types never help. We had G. W. Bush is office for 8 years, and thats the epitome of dumber than a box of rox, HE alone, took us behind 8 years in tech, stem cell research, budget, etc

But we have more churches then all those 'advanced countries' combined, not to mention that almost every church has its own 'faith' stream....

Just another way how knowledge is surprised by faith and false believe. IMHO pastor should be held responsible in the case of any deaths.

Originally posted by rickymouse


...if you are eating a lot of foods that stimulate you to fight cancer, you are increasing your risk of getting other diseases because the body is focusing on cancer killing.

From reading your other posts in this thread, this is your area of research - correct ?

Would you care to expand on the concept quoted above.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Yup I see a bashing out of ignorance about Christianity from this thread.

While I do think it is a good idea to avoid vaccines as much as possible, since many vaccines now days are deadly in themselves by design, some may be a good idea yet to take.

I am Christian, but I disagree with these churches that say not to get medical treatment. God gave us the smarts to make medical advances and to learn how to better treat ourselves and to not use doctors is like jumping off a cliff saying God will save you in a sense, putting God to the test un-neccsairly . We should make use of our resources we are given, then along with that pray for Gods help as well. It has been actually scientifically show in a study done that those who are prayed for often recover faster and do better than those who aren't prayed for. I myself was helped by God to get through and recover from a serious infection, I know God guided me and helped others guide me through it all, I can't explain how exactly, I just do by things that occur while ill.

With that said, we all will die someday sooner or later. This life is very temporary, what the real question is, do you feel comfortable with what you believe when it is time for you to face death? You will face death alone, you will be judged on your life even if you are dumb enough to think God isn't real, denying the truth won't make it go away.

reply to post by UmbraSumus


I hear the older people saying anything in moderation. I researched this to find out what it means. It is true, but the problem is that people are not analyzing what it means. It is knowledge passed on by word of mouth for many generations.

I read an article about what causes cancer to form and a certain enzyme seems to promote Tumor growth. From researching the enzyme I found that knowledge of stimulating this enzyme is used to fight viruses, it seems that stimulating the bodies production of this enzyme helps fight viruses. I tried to find the article and the Nimh report but can't remember where I found it. If I understand the articles, I don't save the link, it takes me a lot of research to understand the complications that can occur by altering the chemistry of the body.

Fight the flu if you get it, fight a cold when you get it. Don't stimulate the body to fight something you don't have, it weakens the bodies ability to fight other things. Don't treat yourself for an illness you may think you have, study the symptoms and try to figure out if you are jumping to conclusions that are unreal...but definitely study and compare this information to your family medical history.

People do not understand how strong the chemicals of our immune systems are, they usually cause the symptoms of the illness. This is very important to understand. The immune system should respond smoothly and not irratically, hitting the pathogen strongly yet not killing us or causing anaphalaxis. Eating a balanced diet, one that does not excessively build the immune system or one that does not cause a depressed immune system is critical. All these years I have been studying and testing and I cannot help anyone yet because there are different types of metabolisms and genetic expressions. People have to pay attention to how food effects them. People used to pay attention,now they just go to a doctor who knows little about their metabolism or genetic gene expression. Doctors guess a lot, a fifteen minute conference is not nearly enough.

Originally posted by alfa1

Originally posted by alfa1
Between the years 1987 and 2000, the case fatality rate across the United States was 3 measles-attributable deaths per 1000 cases, or 0.3%.

4 million children are born in the USA each year.
So... if all of them get the measles, as some here seem to want them to have, they're effectively murdering 12 THOUSAND children.

edit on 25-8-2013 by alfa1 because: (no reason given)

and the irony, they are probably ones of the most outspoken groups against abortion....I guess god-sanctioned death is the only kind allowed.

reply to post by wrabbit2000


Did you just completely ignore the facts that small pox was declining all around the world prior to the vaccines being introduced? I really wish people would watch the two videos by Dr. Tent and learn how to stay healthy. There are dangerous viruses in those vaccines that your body cannot handle and later in life you will get very ill with all sorts of auto-immune disorders. Have you not noticed the incredible rise in ALS, MS, and other neurological disorders these past 2 decades?

This vaccine mandating is fear porn at it's worst. I will never get another one.

Originally posted by wrabbit2000
I think vaccines are one of those issues where there really is no right answer from either extreme. One side seems to want to make vaccinations the biggest cocktail of junk thrown together as humanly possible The other says no vaccinations, ever, period. Both extremes are wrong, IMO.

I think there IS something to be said for the fact that people who grew up in the 70's and 80's weren't vaccinated with the same mass of crap which kids are today. At least, this is my understanding in having looked into it.

At the same time, unless people would love a big juicy case of Small Pox, Polio or Whooping Cough? Vaccines in concept have proven themselves entirely effective.

It's finding that middle ground between ever more things to inject and those basics of the worst things that need to be public health priorities, IMO.

Again with the small pox and other awful diseases being stopped by vaccines. That is a complete myth. It would be like you cleaning up a hoarders house and I how up the last hour and bring in a professional crew, spray some deoderizer around and take out the garbage bags you spent the last 10 days filling and then charging you a bazillion dollars and claiming my crew did the work. Oh, and don't forget we knee capped you on the way out so you are cripple the rest of your life.

Yeh, that's about it for the success of the vaccine industry:









No vaccine for scurvy, and LOOK.... they both came down because of Vitamin C!





So, tell me again how vaccines helped millions when these terrible diseases were reduced dramatically well before vaccinations came out! Do you realize that Dr. Salk asked congress to stop giving his Polio vaccine to Americans because EVERY case after the 1980's in America was DIRECTLY related to babies getting the live vaccine and care givers not having had it and changing a diaper and being exposed to the virus? Congress of course would not budge cause it was afraid of what that would say to Americans about needing vaccines.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


You have successfully fallen into the media's sensationalism trap to make you feel outraged at such an outbreak, steering your mind exactly where they want you to go. They want you to believe that vaccines are good and necessary without questioning what they are and especially what is in them and of course they most definitely do not want you questioning what the long term affects are.

Over all 'they' just don't want you thinking at all but they do want to manipulate your sensitivities using children and illness when it comes to believing what they want you to believe. They want to appeal to your emotions and pull your heart strings so that you will rally for what 'they' are pushing. In this case it is vaccines. They don't want you asking anything so when they get an opportunity to put together both Christians and a public refusal of the system and its vaccines then that is the perfect piece of PR for the system. "They" love making Christians and antiv-vaccine people look like the bad guys.

The media is a well oiled engine specifically designed to keep everyone in 'control' by TPTB. As long as they want you vaccinated they will make you believe it is for your own benefit to keep you alive and strong. The truth is the vaccines will slowly erode your immune system and make you weak until you suffer a slow, sluggish and eventually an unhealthy death . "They" will use every opportunity to sway people's minds using their emotions and in the mean time they will even throw in a few children as casualties to pull your heart strings.

It would be nice if people used their common sense, wanted to be informed and literally delved deeply into research including demanding to know what is in every single batch with proof. It is sickening to me that they can literally put anything inside us without us having a clue what it is and the second you ask questions or demand to know they target you as a trouble making guilty threat who is 'crazy'.

I am not advocating that people should not vaccinate their children against some things even though I am largely anti-vaccines knowing that they are being used as a slow-kill weapon including other unknown purposes. However, when I see the media targeting something like this to me it is obvious what they are doing.

I advocate that people educate themselves, ask questions and demand information. I advocate that people investigate and be "informed". Seek the truth without just taking the bait dished out. The media is owned and utilized to specifically shift the mind of society at large. See beyond the children they use to tug at your heart strings or what ever they are using to manipulate you and look at the greater picture.

Everything in this world is literally backwards. Common sense and what is 'right' are antiquated barely remembered ideals that a bankrupt world has long forgotten. We really do make good slaves and I'm sure we will be good fodder for them when the totalitarian ruler-ship steps in. We make it so easy for them.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


For those interested in the truth and credibility of those charts here is a link.
www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...

A search of Pubmed reveals only one peer-reviewed publication from 1978, and it’s only a commentary. In any case, apparently served as Director National Office of Health Development of the National Indian Brotherhood (AFN); Founding Chairman of NIB’s National Commission Inquiry on Indian Health; Executive Director in the California Rural Indian Health Board; Supervisor of Native Curriculum, Government of the Yukon Territory; and Evaluation Manager – Department of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. None of these are scientific positions. More tellingly, he is “currently engaged with government funding as Senior Researcher relative to establishing a Public Sector Policy on Traditional Medicine in Canada.” My translation? He’s somehow managed to get a government grant to try to promote “traditional medicine” in Canada. Apparently, the Canadian government has its own problems with government money going to promote unscientific and pseudoscientific nonsense of the type that NCCAM promotes. In any case, besides Obomsawin’s disingenuous and intellectually bankrupt distortions of incidence data used to serve his apparently anti-vaccine agenda, he has no qualifications to speak of with regard to science or epidemiology that I can find.

It also turns out that Dr. Obomsawin has some other–shall we say?–unconventional beliefs as well. For instance, he is approvingly featured on that aggregator of all things quackery and pseudoscience, Whale.to, where he expresses anti-vaccine views, HIV/AIDS denialism, and admiration for Royal Rife. So what we have here is a woo-meister using cherry picked points on a graph to give a false impression that the measles vaccine was not responsible for the dramatic decline in measles incidence in Canada in the 1960s. Shocking, I know.

Another rebuttal to the idea that vaccines didn’t reduce the incidence of the diseases against which they were designed comes from the simple observation that, as vaccine uptake falls, the disease vaccinated against returns. Always. This is described by the CDC quite well:


Finally, we can look at the experiences of several developed countries after they let their immunization levels drop. Three countries – Great Britain, Sweden, and Japan – cut back the use of pertussis vaccine because of fear about the vaccine. The effect was dramatic and immediate. In Great Britain, a drop in pertussis vaccination in 1974 was followed by an epidemic of more than 100,000 cases of pertussis and 36 deaths by 1978. In Japan, around the same time, a drop in vaccination rates from 70% to 20%-40% led to a jump in pertussis from 393 cases and no deaths in 1974 to 13,000 cases and 41 deaths in 1979. In Sweden, the annual incidence rate of pertussis per 100,000 children 0-6 years of age increased from 700 cases in 1981 to 3,200 in 1985. It seems clear from these experiences that not only would diseases not be disappearing without vaccines, but if we were to stop vaccinating, they would come back.

The United Kingdom is an excellent illustration of this trend. Back in the mid-1990s, it declared measles as under control, thanks to the MMR vaccine. Then came Andrew Wakefield in 1998 with his trial lawyer-funded, incompetent, and possibly even fraudulent study claiming to link the MMR vaccine to “autistic enterocolitis,’ and a credulous, sensationalistic British press to spread his message that the MMR vaccine causes autism. The result was that measles came roaring back in the U.K. to the point that two years ago measles was declared endemic again there.

The Vaccine Liberation graphs and the even more deceptive graphs produced by “Dr.” Obomsawin to claim that vaccine-preventable diseases were already plummeting before the introduction of the relevant vaccines are typical of anti-vaccine arguments. First, they contain enough of a grain of truth to them to sound plausible. After all, better nutrition and better sanitation have in general contributed to better health and contributed to a decreasing toll from various infectious diseases. But they were not enough. Indeed, part of the reason we vaccinated against some diseases is because sanitation wasn’t enough. Was sanitation so much worse in the late 1980s before the Hib vaccine was introduced than it is now? No. Was it probably even that much worse in the 1960s, when the measles vaccine was introduced? Probably not. Yet, such is the myth that the anti-vaccine movement would have parents believe. Such is the intellectually dishonest nonsense they promote.