Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

reply to post by wildtimes

how about you reading them with context for yourself? Let me use this one as example

For the disbelievers, We have prepared
a painful doom. 18

and here is the verse
18. And of no effect is the repentance of those who
continue to do evil deeds until
death faces one of them and he
says: "Now I repent;" nor of
those who die while they are
disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful torment.

does that make more sense?
And when you read "disbeliever" you sure would get offended. But the translation is not right. Kafir means one who covers up. So one who knows that Qur'an is true and there is a God etc and yet refuses to accept it. And very obviously its very wrong to lie to oneself and declare rebellion against God after knowing the truth.
Check the others for yourself
www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/surah4.html

reply to post by wildtimes


The last bold part, verse 150,151 seems bad to you?!!!
Its asking people to respect all prophets equally and not pick and choose few and reject others. Its asking not to be divided by clinging to their own prophet and dismissing later ones as they are coming from the same God.
So what problem do you have with it?

reply to post by logical7


What problem do I have with it? That it threatens to send people to HELL. That's my problem with it.

Oh, and it's not ASKING anything of people. It is DEMANDING them to do so, "or else"!!


You can't FORCE beliefs on people via threat of VIOLENCE!!!

Gha...

reply to post by logical7

nor of
those who die while they are
disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful torment.

Yes, it makes the same sense it did before: NONE. You can't FORCE people to believe in things via threat of VIOLENCE!!!

If people don't believe, they simply DON'T BELIEVE!!! You can't MAKE THEM BELIEVE! All you can do is make them SAY they believe. You honestly don't see the bullying that is inherent in these ridiculous, vengeful, vain, prideful, egotistical THREATS?

"I'm the boss. Do what I say or you're fired; believe you me, I will see to it that you NEVER work again if you so much as ROLL YOUR EYES when discussing me and my barbarian policies. Got it?"

THAT IS NOT FREEDOM. THAT IS VANITY, SELFISHNESS, and TYRANNY.

But the translation is not right. Kafir means one who covers up. So one who knows that Qur'an is true and there is a God etc and yet refuses to accept it.

If the translation is NOT RIGHT, then that means it is CORRUPT.

And no one can KNOW the Quran is true - they can only BELIEVE it's true, and they can only do that by defying all common sense, logic, and confidence in one's self to discern nonsense and brutality from goodness and fact, and kowtowing to the brow-beating of a maniacal warlord from the bronze age who made up a bunch of stuff and claimed an angel told him. Cause he was just oh-so-special. BULLfeces.

logical7, put on your calm thinking-cap for a moment.

Let's suppose you, tonight, have a dream - a very real-seeming dream, and in it a vision of however you picture the perfect world would be - YOU would be the master of all, and YOU would be the one that everyone believes. You want that. Let's say that you want that. You want to be famous and remembered, and have people say "logical7 pbuh" after you have flown to heaven on a horse.

Now.
You just have to get people to believe you.

Hmmmm. How to do that? HOW TO DO THAT? Well, the simplest and most expedient way is FORCE THEM. And if they say, "nuh-uh!" then tell them you were told they will burn in HELL forever!! And then describe how AWFUL hell is!

And then put a sword to their throats and say, "Now. Do you believe me?"

They say, "sorry, nope. Nuh-uh, I don't. You're crazy or lying or something."

So then what?? Hmm. Go and dig a pit, put a rabid tiger in it, set the whole arrangement on fire, and toss them in.

Then you turn to the next guy. "You! Do YOU believe me?"

He will no doubt say, "Yep. Sure, whatever you say," as he slowly backs away, never taking his eyes off of you.

NOW - you just have to convince him that you have a nifty way of watching every move he makes, reading his every thought, and knowing his every feeling. You stalk him, spy on him, whatever.

Well, you can't exactly do that...can you? No, you can't. SO -- next best idea? Tell him the guy/angel who told YOU says that HIS BOSS is watching every move, every thought, every feeling. And THAT guy (who is not around, by the way, but paying attention anyway) will throw him in a pit that makes your rabid-blazing-tiger-pit seem like a picnic!!!


IS THAT THE KIND OF FOLLOWER YOU WANT?

reply to post by logical7


See this post by wildtimes, then couple it in to what I was saying. As I said, every religion follows a pattern. None of them have any evidence, and sure as hell never had any evidence which would sway any opinion today (if it happened today) and they are all reflective of political control of the age they were developed in.

There is a reason they were all borne of the same era, there is a reason they are all similar, there is a reason they are all x,y & z. And simply arguing "FAITH" as an excuse every time something comes up that's inconvenient to religion, makes it a pointless debate.

For someone with a forum name "logical" your method of thought is ironically opposite. I'm not going to argue the Quran, the Bible nor the book of Gilgamesh with you, and you are not going to convert me nor sway the opinion me or others in this thread, simply because you believe something which was believed by someone which was told to someone which was of great benefit by the original story master .

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

What problem do I have with it? That it threatens to send people to HELL. That's my problem with it.

Oh, and it's not ASKING anything of people. It is DEMANDING them to do so, "or else"!!


You can't FORCE beliefs on people via threat of VIOLENCE!!!

Gha...

wildtimes, just hypothetically assume that HELL is real and this world has been designed as a TEST. Then is warning about Hell bullying or it really is a Mercy?
I perfectly understand you when you start from the assumption that you "know" Hell is a myth. But if your assumption is false then things change.

reply to post by wildtimes

If people don't believe, they simply
DON'T BELIEVE!!! You can't MAKE THEM
BELIEVE! All you can do is make them
SAY they believe. You honestly don't
see the bullying that is inherent in
these ridiculous, vengeful, vain, prideful, egotistical THREATS?

"I'm the boss. Do what I say or you're
fired; believe you me, I will see to it
that you NEVER work again if you so
much as ROLL YOUR EYES when
discussing me and my barbarian
policies. Got it?"
THAT IS NOT FREEDOM. THAT IS
VANITY, SELFISHNESS, and TYRANNY.

Lets see where i should begin..
1. I don't need so much explanation to see your point. I see what you mean very clearly.
2. You should see that all arguments that you put are based on your idea of reality while you do admit humbly that you cannot know what reality is with certainty.

You question the very arrogant looking authority and are naturally inclined to defy it.
I felt the same when i read Qur'an first.

The Question is if God did communicate and obviously knew what the reality was, He would relay it with authority. It wouldn't be like a diplomatic politician seeking votes trying to please everyone!

For you, believing or not believing is an option, its like choosing an ice cream flavour.

For me, when i have established with my mind that Qur'an is from God then believing it is an obvious step. Not believing would be kufr(translated as disbelief in english and wrongly) and very arrogant of me.

And you are judging the Qur'an by just one type of verses in it.

And you are judging me by what you think about islam and Qur'an not by what i know about it. Thats kind of wrong.

The final prophet, peace be upon him, has long chains of creditials that support his integrety and good wishes. i believe he is a mercy upon mankind, because it makes too much sence to deny. Im not saying you guys have to believe it or not but from what i know the Quran can be directly traced back to the Khalifah (Caliph) Uthman (ra). He is still recognized as a very just, honest leader. He was a very close companion to the Prophet and many people looked up to him.
Second reason why i believe the Qur'an is uncorruptable is because its only Qur'an when it is spoken and the only way to corrupt the Qur'an would be to kill every person who was taught the Quran with authority. Even if every copy of the Quran was burned tomorrow it would be revived in less then a day.

reply to post by wildtimes


you do know that the followers of the prophet were heavily persecuted because they refused to worship the idols and follow their ancestors way of tradition.
and this type of persecution was not from strangers but by their own families.

reply to post by DuecesxGeneral


Hello. May Peace be upon you.

The chronology that you laid out sounds wonderful, and is the generally accepted point of view regarding the integrity of the Qur'an. However, we can not deny the authentic source-evidence presented in this thread.




• When Muhammad died, less than 30 people had the entire Qur'an memorized, while some other Muslims only memorized portions. Many Muslims that had the entire Qur'an memorized, and including Muslims that had portions of the Qur'an memorized,... were slain in the civil war battles that erupted soon after Muhammad's death.

• With such a loss of Qur'an memorizers, Abu Bakr (Muhammad's first successor as leader) commissioned a gathering of Qur'an verses from throughout the Islamic empire. There are authentic ahadith that say that some verses were only remembered by a single individual while searching for Qur'an verses. One man knew a few rare verses! How can we ever know if more verses were lost or forgotten with such a shaky foundation of compiling the first Qur'an by Abu Bakr?

• Umar (Muhammad's second successor as leader), called a public gathering. He confessed to clear his conscious that some verses were left out of the Qur'an. Umar pleaded that all Muslims present at this meeting go and spread this confession far and wide.

• Uthman commissioned another Qur'an, thereafter burning all Qur'ans of the empire. Uthman's Qur'an was different than Abu Bakr's original Qur'an, as illustrated in the events of its destruction. Additionally, authentic sources name Abdullah ibn Mas'ud, Ubay ibn Ka'b, and Aisha bint Abi Bakr as having dissent to Utham's Qur'an. Such as missing verses, missing chapters, added/omitted words and phrases, difference in tense/gender/usage of words, difference in sentence structure, and difference of sentence arrangement which changes the context of the idea of the verse.

• Uthman's commissioned Qur'ans are not known to exist. The closest in existence are the alleged hand-copies of the originals, i.e., second-edition manuscripts. Each and every one of these second-edition Qur'ans are different than today's Qur'an, and none of them are complete. The oldest Qur'an is the Sana'a Manuscript. It features both the Ubay and the Uthman versions of the Qur'an. In the Sana'a Manuscripts, both the Ubay version and Uthman version are different than today's Qur'an. The differences are not limited to spelling differences, but also to missing verses, missing chapters, added/omitted words and phrases, difference in tense/gender/usage of words, difference in sentence structure, and difference of sentence arrangement which changes the context of the idea of the verse.



So please, according to this more substantiated chain of events, please explain to us where there is a possibility for the entire Qur'an of Muhammad to have been perfectly preserved.









P.S.

I understand that this thread is long, and often times smothered by negative vibrations. But each and everything I mention in this reply has already been sourced and cited by authentic ahadith, substantiated historic events, and the study of physical Qur'ans. If you would like specific daleel (evidence) for any point above, please ask. I did not invent the concept of this thread. Simply, it has been forcefully white-washed from Islamic academia.

May Peace be upon you.

reply to post by boncho

For someone with a forum name "logical" your method of thought is ironically opposite. I'm not going to argue the Quran, the Bible nor the book of Gilgamesh with you, and you are not going to convert me nor sway the opinion me or others in this thread, simply because you believe something which was believed by someone which was told to someone which was of great benefit by the original story master .

of great benefit to the original story master?
How much do you know about the life of Prophet Muhammad pbuh? His household never ate sasisfactorily ever for even 3 consecutive days. Before the message of Islam he was a successful merchant and respected in the society, his wife died due to the economic bycott imposed on his tribe because he did not stop preaching his message. This continued for 13 years and only when it became unbearable, he migrated to Madina, try and read a bit of history.
So your claim that he must have did it for personal political gain does not fit. Telling idol worshipping arabs that they are wrong, telling jews that they are wrong in denying Christ. Telling christians that they are wrong in worshipping Christ. This all does not seem to be ambitions of someone wanting to grow his political influence/power. Muslims were almost always outnumbered to ratios of around 1:3 in battles and were fighting for survival and not for power.

I as my id suggest cannot neglect these historical truth and the followers/companions of Muhammad pbuh were ready to die for islam and the prophet, kind of hard to make sense of what wildtimes suggested that they were scared of death and so agreed to believe.

These assumptions and narratives seem to come due to lack of knowledge when people try to explain things while they are themselves ignorant of history of events and so arrogant that they think they don't even need to know yet are qualified to tell others of what they are
Not really surprising, especially here on ATS.

reply to post by Sahabi

• Umar (Muhammad's second successor as leader), called a public gathering. He confessed to clear his conscious that some verses were left out of the Qur'an. Umar pleaded that all Muslims present at this meeting go and spread this confession far and wide.

Let me mention the hadith.
Saheeh Bukhari

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: 'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a
long time has passed, people may say,
"We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that
Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that
the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on
him who commits illegal sexual
intercourse, if he is already married
and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan
added, "I have memorized this
narration in this way." 'Umar added,
"Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the
penalty of Rajam, and so did we after
him."

so this is a very clear indication that Umar r.a. accepted that the verse was no more in Quran(abbrogated) yet its ruling remains and he was just afraid that people may later justify not implementing the ruling because the verse is not included in the Qur'an.

And the companions of the Prophet
abandoning the writing of this verse is
clear evidence that the abrogated
should not be written in the Quran and
that Umar's statement about the
stoning as he is on the pulpit and the silence of the companions and other
than them from who were present
from opposing him is evidence about
the ruling of the stoning (still being
implemented) (Imam Nawawi, Sharh Saheeh Muslim, Kitab: Al Hudood,
Bab: Rajam Al Thayb fil Zina,
Commentary on Hadith no. 3201

The verse of stoning: Its recitation has
been abrogated and its ruling still
remains in effect. (Al Sindi, Sharh Sunan Ibn Majah, Kitab: Al Hudood,
Bab: Al Rajam, Commentary on
Hadith no. 2543,

We can clearly see that there was a consensus amongst the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the scholars that the recitation of the verse on stoning was abrogated and that they did not corrupt it. How can all the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) who sacrificed everything they had for this religion just happen to decide to come together and purposely corrupt the Quran by removing this verse? What motive would they have in doing so if its law was to remain being implemented? So there can't be a motive to remove this verse simply because they wished to not follow its ruling since the ruling still remains in effect up to this day. So clearly the evidence shows that this
recitation was always meant to be
abrogated while its ruling remains in
effect.

reply to post by logical7


Great! Now you openly acknowledge that Umar's claim of missing verses is correct.

However, it was not only a sentence or two talking about stoning. It was a plethora of missing verses that includes the edict of stoning, as proclaimed by both Ubay ibn Ka'b and Muhammad's widow and daughter of Abu Bakr; Aisha bint Abi Bakr. [1]





On another point, it is semi-comical that you are proudly proclaiming that the verses of stoning were not included in the Qur'an, but are to be followed under Shariah. Proud that the stoning edict wasn't forgotten about? How can you be proud of archaic barbarism?

reply to post by logical7

and you still are "so concerned for proving it to be corrupted" when you think its all man made? That seems very odd indeed.

I am just a mortal man, trying to ease the negativity that Islam teaches and cultivates towrads non-Muslims. Not bring Muslims away from their personal relationship with Self/God/Existence/One/All.


Why is it that Allah spent so much of the Qur'an dedicated to smearing and objecting to the beliefs of Christians and Jews, calling them derogatory names and insults. He's a supposed All-Knowing, All-Powerful God that claims a perfect and self-evident religion, however, he is "so concerned for proving it to be corrupted".


It's ok for the Qur'an to question, object, and refute the religions of the Jews and Christians,.... but it is odd that I choose to do the same to Islam by exposing the truth?

Sahabi
reply to post by logical7

 

and you still are "so concerned for proving it to be corrupted" when you think its all man made? That seems very odd indeed.

Why is it that Allah spent so much of the Qur'an dedicated to smearing and objecting to the beliefs of Christians and Jews, calling them derogatory names and insults.

because Allah sent revelations to the central figures of the Jews and Christians in the past. Also, Jesus said things that were derogatory ane insulting to the Jews, who came before christians. Is this justification for the Jews to insult Jesus? Muslims understand that the christians insulting of Mohammad, is parralel to the Jews insulting Jesus. We know both Jesus and Mohammad were right.

DuecesxGeneral
The final prophet, peace be upon him, has long chains of creditials that support his integrety and good wishes.

Yep .... all those caravans he raided .. all those goods he stole that weren't his ... all those people he killed .. all those people he inspired murderers to go out and kill ... all those that died because of his fake 'messages' ... all the lies he told the goat herders to get them to follow him ... lots of great integrity and good wishes there. Sure. (sarcasm)

reply to post by DuecesxGeneral

you do know that the followers of the prophet were heavily persecuted because they refused to worship the idols and follow their ancestors way of tradition.
and this type of persecution was not from strangers but by their own families.

Yup. So? What about it? Religion has ALWAYS been the source of persecution.

reply to post by logical7

His household never ate sasisfactorily ever for even 3 consecutive days. Before the message of Islam he was a successful merchant and respected in the society, his wife died due to the economic bycott imposed on his tribe because he did not stop preaching his message.

Which wife? There were more than one, and some were simply a spoil of war. It helps if you take into account an entire lifetime, not cherry pick.

And yes, many people have been sanctioned. FARC is sanctioned in South America, does it make their drug trafficking nobel?

Unbelievable.