Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

sk0rpi0n
op seems to think whatever he has learned during his few years as a muslim trumps the collective knowledge of Islamic scholarahip over 1400 years.

And yet I see Muslims showing up on ATS claiming to know Christianity better than Christians. Muslims who claim to understand the bible better than 2000 years of 'collective knowledge of Christian scholarship', even though those Muslims have only read the bible (with intent to debunk) for a few years.

So which is it Skorpion?? Does the 'collective knowledge of Islamic scholarship for 1400 years' and the 'collective knowledge of Christian scholarship for 2000 years' reign ... or does the writings of an individual doing some reading for a few years hold more weight ??? If it's the 'collective knowledge of the scholars of that religion' ... then you know what's coming next ....

A rock and a hard place .... tough spot to be between.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Scorpion has already shown that he wants to have it both ways ...I think its called a bad case of cognitive dissonance ....peace

FlyersFan

sk0rpi0n
op seems to think whatever he has learned during his few years as a muslim trumps the collective knowledge of Islamic scholarahip over 1400 years.

And yet I see Muslims showing up on ATS claiming to know Christianity better than Christians. Muslims who claim to understand the bible better than 2000 years of 'collective knowledge of Christian scholarship', even though those Muslims have only read the bible (with intent to debunk) for a few years.

So which is it Skorpion?? Does the 'collective knowledge of Islamic scholarship for 1400 years' and the 'collective knowledge of Christian scholarship for 2000 years' reign ... or does the writings of an individual doing some reading for a few years hold more weight ??? If it's the 'collective knowledge of the scholars of that religion' ... then you know what's coming next ....

A rock and a hard place .... tough spot to be between.

Its a very simple thing FF, just be consistent, whatever one does/claims. It all goes down to intentions. If evidence are gathered with the sole intention to prove an alread held opinion/bias then there is plenty available for every idea thats out there.
There is no proof that Jesus pbuh had a virgin birth and any idiot can come and claim that so and so was the father and logic agrees that some man must be a father. I however have no clue if you even believe in virgin birth, we muslims do and our line of logic is that Qur'an and Muhammad pbuh said it and their are eye witness accounts of companions that Muhammad pbuh is a prophet who got revelation just as you claim that the disciples are the eye witness authority to know the truths about Jesus pbuh. So if the witness of disciples is good enough for you to believe that Jesus pbuh was sent by God then the same stands true for muslims believing that Muhammad pbuh is the last Prophet. Consistency FF, CONSISTENCY!

logical7
There is no proof that Jesus pbuh had a virgin birth and any idiot can come and claim that ..

There is no proof that Muhammad really had any visions from God. Any idiot can come and
claim that he had visions. Common sense says he didn't.

Consistency FF, CONSISTENCY!

Consistency logical, CONSISTENCY!!

See. Same/same.

FlyersFan

logical7
There is no proof that Jesus pbuh had a virgin birth and any idiot can come and claim that ..

There is no proof that Muhammad really had any visions from God. Any idiot can come and
claim that he had visions. Common sense says he didn't.

Consistency FF, CONSISTENCY!

Consistency logical, CONSISTENCY!!

See. Same/same.

I will make another attempt to try and make you see my point.
Btw muslims believe in virgin birth and so do I, as I am a muslim Alhamdulillah(Thank God/Praise for God)

there is no proof that Jesus pbuh ascended to heaven or was seen after being buried in the tomb except the claim of the disciples.
The people who use just history either conclude that he just died or he got saved and went to India blah blah which I as a muslim don't agree to.

I am just asking you to apply the same yard stick when judging any religion. If you think Qur'an is a forgery and a human work or work of devil etc because it has tiny variations or supposed scientific errors then also apply the same judgement to Bible as its accepted by Bible scholars that it has a lot of changes and many scientific errors too.

In short the allegations that you throw at Qur'an are actually all equally applicable to NT but you have a soft corner for it. Not really your fault, if you were a muslim, you would be the same towards Bible.

If you want to critically discuss, i invite you to bring allegations you have against Qur'an, one by one and we will discuss. I asked you in this thread to bring up one scientific error (not throw in links plz) or make a thread about it and invite me to discuss it. You answered me by silence and no more posts for some time. So let me try again and invite you to discuss anything, i love to discuss Islam especially a good challenge. So what say you?

logical7
there is no proof that Jesus pbuh ascended to heaven or was seen after being buried in the tomb except the claim of the disciples.

There is no proof that Muhammad had any revelations. There is plenty of proof that the quran that he put together is nothing more than bits and pieces of Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, and Paganism. At the same time, there may not be any proof that the disciples of Jesus told the truth, but there also aren't any proofs that they lied.

SInce the topic of this thread is The Qu'ran, I'll comment on the Qu'ran ... it is easily debunked.

If you think Qur'an is a forgery and a human work or work of devil etc because it has tiny variations or supposed scientific errors

It has HUGE variations and tons of REAL scientific errors.
There is nothing 'tiny' or 'supposed' about it.

logical7
I asked you in this thread to bring up one scientific error (not throw in links plz) or make a thread about it and invite me to discuss it. You answered me by silence and no more posts for some time.

I've already done that. Over and Over in the Religion forum. It's been proven over and over
that the Qu'ran is full of scientific and historical errors. They've been posted here as well.
You refuse to acknowledge them. I'm not going to bother doing it again.

logical, can one expect consistency from a ''christian'' who dismisses half of their own bible as fairy tale? Flyersfan has declared Adam and Noah to be myths inserted into the bible... And has insulted Abraham and Moses in other posts. According to other christians she would be a heretic.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Blah blah blah ... attempt at insulting and deflection .... epic failure as always.

Answer the question Skorpion ... Does the 'collective knowledge of Islamic scholarship for 1400 years' and the 'collective knowledge of Christian scholarship for 2000 years' reign ... or does the writings of an individual doing some reading for a few years hold more weight ???

WHICH IS IT??

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


What does that have to do with ANYTHING in this thread, skorp?

You yourself are a 'convert', aren't you? So - you must have had some problems with the Bible yourself. YOU CHANGED YOUR MIND. Those of us who are into this religious stuff are ALL supposedly intelligent enough to allow that our minds MIGHT BE CHANGED by someone else's 'revelations' or 'research.'

My main beef with Muslims at this point is "How do you know Muhammed was the last of a line of Prophets"? Why could Bahá'u'lláh (or however you spell it) not have been another Prophet? Or Ahmad? WHAT makes Muhammed so special?

Nothing. He wasn't the first, nor the last. You really need to do some comparative religion studies rather than just continuing with your puerile "character assaults" and "finger-pointing." Muhammed was clearly uneducated, and savage, and lacking in civility. I could write a bunch of "revelations", too - would that make me a prophet(ess)?

In my opinion, if ANY of the so-called "prophets", "seers", "heroes", "figures", can be doubted - then THEY ALL CAN.

It's a personal preference. It's known as FREEDOM to choose what you claim you believe in. No one will ever have proof - no matter how much we try - there is INSUFFICIENT reason to believe ANY of the stories handed down from the ancients.

I prefer the Avalon/King Arthur stories myself - but I know they are stories, and not actual literal truth. But I'm thinking of starting a thread about it. At least Avalon is a nice place, where WOMEN are in charge.

wildtimes
At least Avalon is a nice place, where WOMEN are in charge.

I can think of a few religions that would consider that hell.
I hope their afterlife is in a place with educated western women in charge for eternity.
The misogyny that comes with these Abrahamic religions is archaic and absurd.
And what is insane is that there are people who still cling to it in this modern educated age.
They use these debunked religions as an excuse to exercise power over women.
It's sick.

reply to post by FlyersFan


LOL!! I know! Right?

What they fail to see is that WOMEN really are in charge!! Without us, there would be no....erm....babies!! No more new people. No homefires, no nurturing, no softness and compassion - and NO COMMON SENSE. Most significantly, if women were allowed to be in charge, I think there would be NO MORE WAR. (Lots of cat-screeching claw-slashing and hissing maybe, but we can kick those women out of it.)

I find the disrespect for women and obvious "uterus envy" to be atrociously uncivilized. "Penis envy"?? LOL!! Erm, no. Thanks, but no.
They have it backward, but...what can one expect from someone who is clearly a misogynist and follows misogynist dogma??

Every person alive had A MOTHER. ::shake my head:: The disrespect needs to stop, and any religion that includes misogynistic superstition and oppression needs to go as well.

On the topic of the Qu'ran. Some interesting words from John Quincy Adams ...
He pretty much nails it.

John Quincy Adams on Islam

The precept of the koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God. The vanquished may purchase their lives, by the payment of tribute; the victorious may be appeased by a false and delusive promise of peace; and the faithful follower of the prophet, may submit to the imperious necessities of defeat: but the command to propagate the Moslem creed by the sword is always obligatory, when it can be made effective. The commands of the prophet may be performed alike, by fraud, or by force (Blunt, 29:274).

@flyersfan ..... Why bring up the collective knowledge of 2000 years of christian scholarship,... when you have already rejected the most important parts of the bible... (adam, noah, abraham, moses etc)You do realize most christians woud dismiss you as a heretic, don't you?

sk0rpi0n
Why bring up the collective knowledge of 2000 years of christian scholarship,...

Hey genius ... YOU brought up 1400 years of 'collective Islamic scholarship' to try to bolster your case but in fact you ignore 2,000 years of 'collective Christian scholarship' when you go around posting thread after thread after thread of your attempts to try to discredit Christianity. You are doing EXACTLY what you accuse the OP of this thread of doing. That's the point .... stop deflecting.

when you have already rejected the most important parts of the bible... (adam, noah, abraham, moses etc)

1 - They are not 'the most important parts'. They are myth and folklore and most everything in those stories can be DEBUNKED. That's right ... most of that has been proven FALSE.
2 - I am very proud to be smart enough to accept the TRUTH. What you consider an 'insult' by continually pointing and screaming at me that I reject the myth and folklore is actually a compliment about my intelligence level. So again .. you fail.

You do realize most christians woud dismiss you as a heretic, don't you?

Like I care? You do realize that 6/7 of the world considers you silly and/or stupid for accepting the Qu'ran bunk, don't you? And do you care? No.

AGAIN .. I AM NOT THE TOPIC .. ANSWER THE QUESTION ... STOP DEFLECTING

So which is it Skorpion?? Does the 'collective knowledge of Islamic scholarship for 1400 years' and the 'collective knowledge of Christian scholarship for 2000 years' reign ... or does the writings of an individual doing some reading for a few years hold more weight ???

You run around posting thread after thread trying to tell people that you and your couple of years reading the bible make you smarter and more knowledgeable about Christianity then 2,000 years of Christian scholars. And yet you are sitting here complaining about the OP who did the same thing with Islam. So which is it ... are you who do your own little agenda-filled reading smarter than 2,000 years of 'Christian scholarship' ... yes or no??

IF you say you are smarter ... then the OP is smarter than 1400 years of Islamic 'scholarship'.
IF you say that the Islamic 'scholarship' is smarter ... then you have to stop your endless stream
of threads about christianity that put your own special little spin on things.

Can't have it both ways. Pick one.

@ ff .... My point is that you have no business referring to ''2000 years of christian scholarahip''... Because you yourself oppose christian scholarship by dismissing key bible figures as myths (and what not).

sk0rpi0n
My point is that you have no business referring to ''2000 years of christian scholarahip''...

1 - I most certainly can refer to it. It exists. I don't have to believe in the outcome of something to point out that it's there.

2 - I"m not saying that 2000 years of Christian scholarship is correct ... you are deflecting ...

3 - I'm stating that there is 2000 years of Christian scholarship and in doing so I am pointing out the HYPOCRISY of your statement .. Your statement that the OP is posting his own take on Islam after reading up on it for a few years and is ignoring 1400 years of supposed 'Islamic Scholarship' ... that is the EXACT SAME THING YOU DO with Christianity and 2000 years of Christian scholarship.

So which is it ...

Is the 1400 years of Islamic 'scholarship and 2000 years of Christian scholarship correct?

Or are you and the OP correct when you both have read a few years about Islam/Christianity
and you disagree with the thousands of years of scholarship that has come before you??

Which is it .... PICK ONE.

**Shameless Bump **

Shameless bump so that the discussion/question won't be left in the dust.
Still waiting for the answer ....

reply to post by wildtimes

My main beef with Muslims at this point
is "How do you know Muhammed was the last of a line of Prophets"?
Why could Bahá'u'lláh (or however
you spell it) not have been another
Prophet? Or Ahmad? WHAT makes
Muhammed so special? Nothing. He wasn't the first, nor the
last.

because the Qur'an says so and if you don't believe that a scripture can be revealed from God than the bahais also believe that.
And i always wonder from where you get the authority to say things like "he wasn't the first, nor the last"
how you know he was not the last?
You are ofcourse free to think and believe whatever you want and make your own reality but that does not mean you are right in anything. So why bother?
Whats your objective to argue?
You believe in no revelations so whats the point in arguing with people who believe it when all the arguments rest on this difference? And both are equally logical because any logic always has a presumption at its very base.

Muhammed was clearly uneducated, and savage, and lacking
in civility.

what an educated opinion! =)
I would think you are talking about someone else not the Prophet of Islam peace be upon him.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Dear brother sk0rpi0n,

I have laid out for you, in an orderly fashion, rebuttals to your false claims. Yet, you ignore the truths of my replies, or simply re-word your stance in an attempt to win by mere semantics alone. Thus far, you have not provided any source-evidence. Daleel (evidence) akhi! We need daleel to back our statements, or we stoop to the level of unsubstantiated personal opinion.

It is with the utmost respect that I must once again rebut and rebuke your unsubstantiated claims. Honestly and respectfully, you are wrong.