Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

reply to post by FlyersFan


I know your thoughts and feelings when it comes to people of the muslim faith..

Can we agree to disagree? Can we say "to you be your religion and to me be mine?" and go our own ways in peace while having respect of each others differences?

reply to post by OpinionatedB

Deflection. Attempt to make it look like I hate muslims when I don't.
Stay on topic. The CORRUPT QU"RAN.

reply to post by FlyersFan

FlyersFan
Telegraph

Senior clerics in Iran's theocratic regime have become concerned about the social side-effects of rising educational standards among women, including declining birth and marriage rates.

Oh ... and the women had been outscoring the men in tests and doing better in school.
The jealous neanderthals couldn't handle it. So they banned the women from school.

How does this have anything to do with Afghanistan? In your bigoted generalising of all muslims as the same, evil, etc., I think you mixed something up. Besides, education isn't banned for women in Afghanistan or Pakistan (which is what I assume you mean by "Girls schools are blown up and girls shot for wanting to learn to read", which is reprehensible, but not the same thing, as it is being carried out be minority extremist factions that most of the population, and the government, disagree with).

And now you're saying that literature is included as well, when your original link says literature was banned for men. So which is it?

And you seem to think that blocking female students from biology classes in some specific univerisities somehow translates to no medical degrees? Iran has numerous medical universities, some of them exclusively for women, and some of them still have a requirement of up to 50% of the enrollment seats at these medical institutes be fixed for women.

Again, I have no stake in defending Iran from anything, but when someone is distorting the truth, I'm certainly going to point it out. It is funny you're throwing around accusations of deflection and off-topic, when you're the one who brought up education in Iran into a thread on corruption in the Quran, and continued along that line, even though I suggested twice that the topic be taken to another thread.

reply to post by FlyersFan


not deflection... just trying for peace... sorry I interrupted your war of words with such an illogical thing in your mind...

continue your war of words

babloyi
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

FlyersFan
The mantra of those indoctrinated in organized religions ...

And seeing your statements, obviously not exclusive organised religion, but whatever you were indoctrinated with as well:
Constantly caught out in a lack of in-depth knowledge- check
Constant repetition of stock (programmed?) phrases- check
Denial and refusal to accept when confronted with a truth contrary to what they've been programmed with- check

About the universities, are you even reading what you're linking? It is exactly as I said.
How am I downplaying anything? Should I asked you "exaggerate much?" Women aren't banned from school (or university or college). THAT statement is categorically false.

Again, not that I have any reason to need to defend Iran, but with 90% of degrees still open to women in those specific universities (with the remaining universities having no such ban), and a certain number of degrees closed to men now, what you're saying is absolute BS. The percentage of women in Iranian universities STILL outnumber the men in Iranian universities (and the women in US universities as well, hilariously enough).

edit on 14-10-2013 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

You arent stupid you know you only have to ban a couple of courses to exclude others. Take out biology for example and this means every medical field is off limits. Even i noticed they didnt ban them all but they hit the core curriculum meaning there isnt much left. In essence they banned women from college there will be a lucky few that had all ready taken these classes and can graduate but i have a feeling theyll be leaving as soon as they can.

reply to post by dragonridr

In essence, they aren't. SOME universities banned SOME courses for women.
I encourage you to read the remainder of my back-and-forth with FF in this thread, to catch up.

babloyi
SOME universities banned SOME courses for women.

36 universities banned 77 degrees. That's more than 'some'.
If you kill biology for women ... that kills many medical degrees.
If you kill engineering for women ... that kills all the engineering fields.
But you really know this ... don't you??


And that came up because someone said 'Islam is a light at the end of the tunnel' ...
And they said that because of the Quran 'not being corrupt' ...
THAT is how it came up ...

reply to post by FlyersFan

You said "Iranian women are banned from 77 university degrees" and "women in Iran are banned from higher education".

I said "SOME universities banned SOME degrees for women".

I am pretty sure it is quite clear to you which statement is closer to the truth. If you are not knowledgeable about the situation in Iran, however, I can tell you that it has hundres of colleges and universities, where degrees are offered in hundreds of fields. So my "some" is valid, and your categorical, generalised statement is false.

babloyi
I am pretty sure it is quite clear to you which statement is closer to the truth.

Yes. Mine. You are downplaying the fact that Islam is being used as an excuse to dumb down women so they will be forced to marry men who are dumber than they are. Forced uneducation. Like I said .. not exactly 'the light at the end of the tunnel'.
*******************

Back to the topic .... THIS TOPIC HAS RUN OUT. The OPs original statements have not been debunked. After all these pages, it still holds true. Large chunks of the Qu'ran (as well as Judaism and the Old Testament) have been shown to be untrue. The Qu'ran is corrupt. It's not all from God. (neither are the old Jewish books or the Christian Old Testament).

Looks like the case is closed.

reply to post by babloyi


If women were treated fairly in muslim countries notice didnt just say Iran organizations such as Musawah wouldnt be needed. Now we can argue all day long about well thats the culture but then you must ask yourself why? If Muslims claim they live by the Koran then how can this be? There is a problem in all Muslim countries to varying degrees. Id argue when you have a religion that controls every facet of ones life it will lead to abuse.Doesnt matter really what the religion is but it does seem like the Koran is the basis for these beliefs because you have things like requiring the word of 2 women to equal 1 man. You know if you studied the Koran women are not treated equal theres even a ban on sex after divorce come on really?

Hey dr!
reply to post by dragonridr

dragonridr
If women were treated fairly in muslim countries notice didnt just say Iran organizations such as Musawah wouldnt be needed.

What is a muslim country? A country with a majority of muslims in it? How does that make them an authority on Islam? Women are treated unfairly all over the world, countries with muslim majorities aren't exceptional to that. Some are worse, some are better.

dragonridr
Doesnt matter really what the religion is but it does seem like the Koran is the basis for these beliefs because you have things like requiring the word of 2 women to equal 1 man. You know if you studied the Koran women are not treated equal theres even a ban on sex after divorce come on really?

Ban on sex after divorce? What do you mean? Extra-marital sex is prohibited, but I'm not sure what you are talking about. And the Quran certainly doesn't have the word of 2 women equal to 1 man. That is a distortion of one instance where merchandising contracts require two men or one man and two women. Yet people ignore other instances, such where the Quran has it that if a man accuses a woman of adultery (or vice versa), and the woman (or man) denies it, the accusation is dropped.

babloyi
What is a muslim country?

Oh come on. That's a common term used around the world, and even in 'muslim countries'

'Muslim World'

Arab News - Problems Facing Muslim Nations
See that ... they refer to themselves as 'muslim nations'.

Yet, our curriculums and our teachers, being the products of cultural norms in most Muslim countries, remain wedded to the past and unable to produce persons of creative minds and innovative ways of thinking. Why is this so? Because these curriculums and the attitudes of teachers fail to value or embrace the disciplines that are vital for today, such as subjects like mathematics, chemistry, physics, philosophy and logic, which have been disregarded and replaced, with all due respect, by mostly religious subjects and teachers who seek to impose religious dogma upon their students.

Impose religious dogma .... from the 1400 year old Qu'ran which has been proven wrong. hmmm ... wonder what this fella thinks about Iran banning women from higher degrees due to religious reasons. I bet I could guess ...

AGAIN ...

Back to the topic .... THIS TOPIC HAS RUN OUT. The OPs original statements have not been debunked. After all these pages, it still holds true. Large chunks of the Qu'ran (as well as Judaism and the Old Testament) have been shown to be untrue. The Qu'ran is corrupt. It's not all from God. (neither are the old Jewish books or the Christian Old Testament). Looks like the case is closed.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Back to the topic .... THIS TOPIC HAS
RUN OUT. The OPs original statements
have not been debunked. After all
these pages, it still holds true. Large
chunks of the Qu'ran (as well as
Judaism and the Old Testament) have been shown to be untrue. The Qu'ran
is corrupt. It's not all from God.
(neither are the old Jewish books or
the Christian Old Testament). Looks
like the case is closed.

not really closed =) more like a little Eid vacation.
Btw Happy Eid to you FF! and to all others here on the thread.
The chunks from Qur'an that you claim have been shown to be untrue cannot really be proven one way or the other absolutely.
The ones who dig into them to prove or disprove are missing the whole point of that story. I have mentioned this before, its like someone arguing if the tortoise and the rabbit really raced rather than taking the lesson in the story.
Also you are completely ignorant of islamic history and what struggles muslims went through to just keep being muslims.
Try reading from some academic history sources, although i doubt if you really want to know the reality as you seem quiet comfortable with your perceptions and phobia about Islam.

Qur'an is the Word of God and uncorrupted.
The attempt by the op is nothing different than similar wishful thinking that the christian sites propogate and people looking to confirm their prejudice gobble it all up without even caring to verify it. Their moto is "if it makes Islam look bad/wrong, it must definitely be true"
The op is nothing but a cunningly arranged interpretation of reported events to suit an agenda.
Its the same as saying "because Jesus' (pbuh) tomb was found empty and no dead body was found, he must have escaped and went to India"
if you believe the op, you have to also believe any interpretation of any event, even if it selectively twists the facts to suit a purpose.

Variation in a personal copy of Qur'an does not automatically prove that the official copy(compiled by earnest and rigorous efforts to preserve unaltered) must be corrupted.
Variation means that either of them could be wrong or they are acceptable variations, as the op mentioned about the 7 ahruf.
Selectively using the 7 ahruf card when it serves a purpose but ignoring it when it also explains variations stinks of the existence of presumed conclusions.
Nobody can help a person who only wants to see what he/she wants to see.
(i predict a back atchya coming )

my point is simple, facts can be twisted/omitted/selectively picked to present a desired interpretation.
This is a universal truth and anybody trying to refute this would only insult himself/herself.

The point is simple. The op is an interpretation and a very shaky one at that.

@sahabi
Umar r.a. making a public declaration about verses of stoning not being a part of Qur'an, means they are not and all companions knew it, he just wanted to make sure that the ruling that still was applicable should continue.
And you pointing out that i approve of stoning and trying to deflect answering the real point was not missed.
The stoning verses were abbrogated in the time of the Prophet pbuh and all companions knew it and agreed to it.
You think that Umar r.a would have believed that they are a part of Qur'an and meekly accepted them not being included?

wildtimes
reply to post by babloyi

 

My daughter (in the US) just finished her master's degree last year, and is now working as a Materials Science Engineer for a major corporation. I've no idea where you're getting your stats, but....
women are able to study WHATEVER THEY WANT TO in the U.S.A.
So, you're fine with Iran banning women from some fields of study? Why is that????

these are all rumors.
and I do know from where Flyers gets it's stats ! from some biased media. based on unreliable and truncated sources.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
reply to post by FlyersFan

and your spreading rumors about banning women from education in Iran, will never get closed !!!
media are not necessary true.
it is funny because they do not dare even think about such subjects

reply to post by maes2

Even if what the article says is true, it doesn't match what FF is trying to portray. She is trying to portray that women are banned from getting an education in Iran, when the article says that on the orders of the government, some universities in Iran (from out of a couple hundred) prevented women from enrolling in some courses (out of all the hundreds).

I certainly never said that was a good thing (despite everyone accusing me of supporting it), but seeing how a woman can still study those courses (in another university in Iran), or study in those universities (except for in specific courses), which of course, isn't the optimal solution, claiming that "Iran banned university education for women", is totally false, especially considering that there are a greater percentage of women in Irani universities than there are in the US or the UK.

Then again, FF has shown she's not really interested in debate or discussion or communication, or even the facts (except insofar as repeating the word "Fact" over and over).

babloyi
Even if what the article says is true, it doesn't match what FF is trying to portray. She is trying to portray that women are banned from getting an education in Iran, when the article says that on the orders of the government, some universities in Iran (from out of a couple hundred) prevented women from enrolling in some courses (out of all the hundreds).

Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. Shame on you.
36 universities banned 77 degrees. That's more than 'some'.
The universities that offer those types of courses killed the courses for women.
The universities that didn't offer those types of courses, had nothing to ban.
(They didn't all offer engineering and medicine etc .... )
If you kill biology for women ... that kills many medical degrees.
If you kill engineering for women ... that kills all the engineering fields.
If you kill the business degrees ... that kills women owning and operating their own business.
If you kill English ... that kills women being able to get facts and information that runs counter
to the Iranian propaganda machine. That kills freedom of information.

But you really know this ... don't you??

I didn't say that women are banned from getting a basic education in Iran ... I said they are banned from getting the higher paying type college degrees ... the ones where they can actually make a living on their own. And the purpose for this is purely RELIGIOUS. The ISLAMIC government doesn't want women educated and independent. They want the women to have to get married to the men who aren't as bright as them. THEY SAID SO.

That's the facts. Deal with it. Admit it .. if you are capable.

*******************************************************************************
Back to the topic .... THIS TOPIC HAS RUN OUT. The OPs original statements have not been debunked. After all these pages, it still holds true. Large chunks of the Qu'ran (as well as Judaism and the Old Testament) have been shown to be untrue. The Qu'ran is corrupt. It's not all from God. (neither are the old Jewish books or the Christian Old Testament).

Looks like the case is closed.

reply to post by FlyersFan

You can't keep posting false information and then saying "BACK TO TOPIC".
The number of universities and the number of courses that were restricted to males only are in the significant minority. SOME applies MUCH more accurately than "BANNED UNIVERSITY EDUCATION FOR WOMEN".

FlyersFan
The universities that offer those types of courses killed the courses for women.
The universities that didn't offer those types of courses, had nothing to ban.

Also, this is complete and utter rubbish. Those courses are STILL offered to women in Iran in the MAJORITY of universities in Iran.
And there are dozens of women only universities in Iran, including medical schools, which I can verify (at least until September 2013, an entire year after the article you referenced) to be teaching biology and other medicine related subjects.

And I don't think I used the word "base" anywhere when referring to what you said, I used to the word "school" once because YOU used the word "school" in reference to Iran (later claiming it was in reference to Afghanistan, which was mentioned nowhere in that post), but I can quote you directly as saying:
"Try telling that crap to the women in Iran who are barred from getting a higher education..."
"Women in Iran are now banned from getting 77 higher level degrees"

And so on. As much as you'd like to scream "downplaying", at least my statements were not categorically false.

reply to post by babloyi

Okay we all get it ... you aren't capable of admitting that women in Iran are being blocked from the higher education fields by the Islamic government of Iran ... for religious reasons. Maybe someday it'll sink in ... but for now you just can't see it.


Again ... on topic .... no one has debunked the original claims of the OP. After all these pages and all the attempts by the muslim-brigade, it doesn't look like anyone will be able to. Unless something new comes up, it looks like case closed in favor of the OP.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Heheh....are you capable of admitting that women in Iran are not banned from higher education? Or perhaps you can't see that either, due to your blind hatred of everything muslim.

OpinionatedB
reply to post by maes2

 

Revelation 3:1 - And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars ; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Revelation 5:6 - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

although you may not like to agree...

well.
once I heard that some of people arrested by foreign security services in Iraq, believed that security services were confused and stupid !, because those security services had asked people "where have you hidden Mahdi !?".
when we consider how they wanted to pretend that Bin Laden was the messiah of muslims (Mahdi), and their hands in Yemen, Mecca, Iraq, Egypt and Syria, better to say throughout the middle east, we may just think and may feel that Pharaohs may be seeking the boy who will rule over nations.

John revelation 12 ::
[1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
[2] And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
[3] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
.
[16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. John revelation 12