Calif. poitician pulls son from class over transgender law

alright you're definitely going to have to grant me my dunce hat because i haven't used a forum of this style in many moons so this formatting will probably be messy and require a few edits!

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

my argument leans towards the thinky and argumentative end and not so much with the practical application

if i were working off the thoughtful end that was more about ethics, our points would probably be very similar! having only left high school a few years ago though i was really thinking in a way that would be helpful if applied to schools with openly trans* pupils immediately.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

In a perfect world we wouldn't have to deal with the bullying. In a perfect world - we wouldn't have to spend any time trying to convince people that this is something they should to consider in the first place. By this I mean - there are still plenty of people in this world who think being gay is a fantasy, a choice, an act - a sin. Introducing the idea of transgendered folks into the mix is, well, I'm sure you know better than I do

yes! in an ideal world this wouldn't be an issue, but given the attitude of most teenagers (and a frightening number of adults) this probably isn't going to be something well see for a long time. honestly, i get asked at least every other day 'when i became a lesbian' by people of my own age that function seemingly as normal adults - shocking really!

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

Sometimes you've got to plant a flag before the real work of making things OK can begin. Real change begins with the challenge - but how that change happens after is more subtle - and it takes time

i absolutely agree. people all around the world are fighting much harder for the rights of lgbt folks, and they're making some really great headway. even at my college - this year, the enrollment forms had 'male', 'female' and a third box - 'other'. they also had some boxes further down the page for you to describe your sexuality and gender, so that adequate support could be given. i heard there was a trans* student at the college last year, but they were being bullied by other students so badly that they dropped out

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

... the fight to acknowledge that these kids are entitled to be who and what they are and establish that they have the same rights as other kids has to come first. The problems won't all disappear just because laws are passed and rights are established - but it will change the tone.

i agree with you very much here! it will take some time for the attitudes to change, but laws can at least protect pupils who are being singled out for any reason. i think a lot of kids bully people because if you say mean things, it makes you part of the group which says mean things - typically a powerhouse of 'cool' behavior. there was one small group of kids that did pick on me, but after they realised i was single-handedly running the cigarette trade at my school (whoops...) they stopped it and encouraged their friends to stop it as well.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I still think that for little kids it shouldn't be an issue - but then, when they get older...how do you tell them they have to switch back? If there's a third facility - you're still going to have girls and boys in the same room - unless now we have four separate facilities...and, we'll still be drawing attention to those individual kids...

i think i would hope that trans* kids would feel a little more comfortable using trans* facilities, as they would have a lot more in terms of understanding that sometimes your genitals don't align with your mind that would still be singling kids out though - even being 'the kid that uses the trans* facilities' is grounds to be bullied in the minds of teenagers. i think in younger children it might be quite confusing, also statistically most trans* folk don't realise their gender issues until they are a little older, so that would probably be something that would very much be handled on an individual basis.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

With time, nobody will be looking at this the same way and the problems will be a thing of the past. That might be 40 years from now and it doesn't help a single person right now. It all has to start somewhere.

... So, my approach is to use my very loud mouth to put this sort of thing directly in people's faces and make them think about it :-)

reminds me of this comic, and i feel that is very true! theoatmeal.com...
it all has to start somewhere - and that somewhere is signing petitions, going to protests, and even as far as debating with people online - it's not just about legality, it's also a lot about attitude.

reply to post by hatfulofhollow

So, nothing to argue about it seems :-)

i think i would hope that trans* kids would feel a little more comfortable using trans* facilities, as they would have a lot more in terms of understanding that sometimes your genitals don't align with your mind

Actually - I agree. I guess I really should give kids more credit for understanding the nature of their situation better than anyone else

...that would still be singling kids out though - even being 'the kid that uses the trans* facilities' is grounds to be bullied in the minds of teenagers.

This is obviously one of those kinds of problems where there's only going to be a best possible way to handle it - the only other thing we can try is to wave a magic wand and have everyone in the world suddenly not give a crap

i think in younger children it might be quite confusing, also statistically most trans* folk don't realise their gender issues until they are a little older, so that would probably be something that would very much be handled on an individual basis.

If it comes right down to it - this is the part that's hardest for me to process. As you mentioned in your last post - puberty and being a teenager are not easy - sometimes it absolutely is the worst part of many people's lives. Gender identity issues can only make things worse, but at least the kids are old enough to understand what they're dealing with...It does help to be reminded that it's been a while since I was in school - with time we tend to forget the reality of it all

But, still - for the little ones, who really aren't old enough to understand they whys and can'ts of it all - I honestly am at a loss. I don't know what the parents can do. No matter what choices they make, it's going to be the wrong choice it seems

Here's a thread from a while back - about a little girl in the state where I live:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

In addition to arguing about gender - there was a pretty good discussion about how the parents chose to handle the whole thing. Here's the latest on that story:
Coy Mathis Case: Colorado Civil Rights Division Rules In Favor Of Transgender 6-Year-Old In Bathroom Dispute

It remains to be seen I guess whether this was the right way to go - or not

P.S. I love The Oatmeal :-)

Welcome, hatfulofhollow! I would love to nominate you for a Newbie Award, First Time Posting Which Best Exemplifies The Spirit And Style of ATS ... but we don't have such an award ... but if we did, I would nominate you

And, destination, I don't think we have an award for Best Mother & Daughter Posters, so you will just have to be content with the joy of having raised a wonderful daughter and being able to both enjoy still the relationship.

And, Spira ... well, I continue to love the intelligence, passion, and humor in your posts. And if there were an award for Most Gratitude Given to Another Member of ATS, I would want to be the winner.

Here are a couple of quotes re programs already in place in California

Both Los Angeles Unified and San Francisco Unified have had policies similar to AB 1266 for years, and Oakland Unified adopted a similar policy last year.

According to Judy Chiasson, the program director for LAUSD’s Commission on Human Relations, Diversity and Equity, the state’s largest school district has never had a report of an inappropriate incident involving a transgender student, nor has she received any complaints from classmates or parents about a transgender youth using bathrooms or locker rooms. The district estimates 0.5 percent of LAUSD’s 550,000 students — or about 2,750 — self-identify themselves as transgender.

source

The San Francisco policy has been in place since the mid to early 1990s, and district officials know of about 150 current middle school students and 300 high school students who identify as transgender, said Kevin Gogin, the program manager in school health programs for the district. ....

He said there have been no problems with students claiming to be transgender when they are not, nor have there been complaints from parents.

source

I would say for school districts to get a handle on meanness and bullying in general in the first place. If all students have to put up with bullies while adults do nothing about it, then I sure can see how measures like this Calif one would meet with opposition in re to bullying. Four other states, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Washington and Colorado already have policies in place like this law.

Originally posted by desert
Welcome, hatfulofhollow! I would love to nominate you for a Newbie Award, First Time Posting Which Best Exemplifies The Spirit And Style of ATS ... but we don't have such an award ... but if we did, I would nominate you

And, destination, I don't think we have an award for Best Mother & Daughter Posters, so you will just have to be content with the joy of having raised a wonderful daughter and being able to both enjoy still the relationship.

thank you very much desert! and thanks for the statistical information too.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

But, still - for the little ones, who really aren't old enough to understand they whys and can'ts of it all - I honestly am at a loss. I don't know what the parents can do. No matter what choices they make, it's going to be the wrong choice it seems

i think one day in the future, some very brainy folk will come up with solutions that can mostly be applied across the board - but for now the battle is mainly to ensure that people have less in terms of the hateful views regarding homosexuality and transgendered people (and everyone else that falls in to the LGBTQC umbrella). i think personally that little kids are probably too young to make such big decisions, but i think it would be healthy for parents to allow their children to dress in any gender's clothing whilst at home - there's no harm in that at all

thank you also spira for posting the links to the article & thread about the girl from colorado - interesting reads!

reply to post by hatfulofhollow


Well you already know my views about very young children being involved in the gender debate. Like I've said previously why can't kids just be kids? And in a supportive environment with loving, caring parents a child can grow and develop interests that are best suited to their personality. E.G, you hated dolls and I never bought you any (apart from a 6 month barbie stage, which I think you only went through because other girls in your class had them) but other than that I bought you things you enjoyed, like your lego and your fisher price garage. In terms of clothing, you preferred dresses, though I often wanted you to wear leggings etc due to the Scottish weather..so you were girly in one aspect and boyish in another, but ultimately I just let you be what you wanted to be

So I think that's the most important aspect with regards to bringing up children, rather than enforcing gender stereotypes, then most children won't feel that they're being made to do things or wear things that they don't like and as a result won't develop any issues. Though I do agree that it is about more than clothing and toys and obviously there will be some children who will ultimately feel that they identify with the opposite gender, but children as young as six should not even be considering these issues, let alone acting on them.

Obviously it is different for children who have physically mixed genders, but this debate isn't really about them, that's a whole other thread

reply to post by hatfulofhollow



I still can't star your posts, yet I can star other people's...I've emailed the mods about this and haven't had a response yet, can someone help me out?

I can assure you that we are two different people, but obviously we are using the same internet connection and whilst it might be consider nepotistic to star a family member's post, I can only star it once anyway, and believe me, if I don't agree with her, I won't be starring it

reply to post by destination now

children as young as six should not even be considering these issues, let alone acting on them.

i think all i considered at six was spongebob... obviously i don't reckon kids that age would come anywhere close to understanding the huge network of social issues regarding being transgendered, i do think it is quite alright if little timmy plays with barbies and gets his nails painted pink, as there's nothing harmful in that and it's just a bit of fun when you're six

Obviously it is different for children who have physically mixed genders...

indeed it is, as that can be flat-out confusion from day one. the child may elect to happily live life in the gender & sex that their parent(s) elected to sign them as, or as the cisgendered roles assigned to their 'predominant' sex. intersex is a very complex issue though, and very much dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

if I don't agree with her, I won't be starring it

what a charmer, ten out of ten

reply to post by destination now

I still can't star your posts, yet I can star other people's...I've emailed the mods about this and haven't had a response yet, can someone help me out?

It is because you two share the same IP address

reply to post by Sharingan


Thought that was probably it, and I guess if you make an exception for one person, then you'd have to do it for everyone...self flagging orgy ahoy

It would have been nice if a mod had confirmed that though...

Sorry Ems, no stars from mummy

reply to post by destination now

no stars from mummy

people on the internet can use stars, however you can use the highly unconventional, controversial and mostly unheard of 'walking to my room and talking to me'

and thankyou for the info sharingan

Originally posted by destination now
reply to post by Sharingan

 

Thought that was probably it, and I guess if you make an exception for one person, then you'd have to do it for everyone...self flagging orgy ahoy

It would have been nice if a mod had confirmed that though...

Sorry Ems, no stars from mummy

Or you can download this free VPN setup and have the choice of about 10 different IP addresses

In the mean time, I will star her for you

securitykiss

reply to post by Sharingan


cheers sharingan will have a further look at that tomorrow.

reply to post by desert


Ditto desert - ditto...

:-)

what a lovely way for a thread to wind down - a very good way to leave for a walkabout

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Enjoy your break and I look forward to your return, hopefully refreshed and ready for some new debates