New low for the Tea Party

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Kali74

 

Yes Libertarian Left is Leftist, you got it right! Liberal is center. Left Libertarian and Liberal are not the same thing. Why drop the Libertarian?

This why:

I am Left and I don't particularly care for Liberalism as it supports Capitalism.

Just left not center of nothing, not libertarian of any kind.

Which is what is running this country in to the ground with its state's control of the economy.

Basically what progressives do is hijack a name til they get found out then pick a new name to rinse and repeat the same ideology.

Free markets are free markets and only exist in the absence of government interventions AND it is that interventionism that created the welfare industrial complex.

That created the welfare state.

That is pure BS... Libertarianism was born on the Left and has zero to do with Progressivism. Progressives embrace equality through government, Left Libertarians do not like government.

This year, 2008, marks the 150th anniversary of the use of the word “libertarian” by anarchists.

As is well known, anarchists use the terms “libertarian”, “libertarian socialist” and “libertarian communist” as equivalent to “anarchist” and, similarly, “libertarian socialism” or “libertarian communism” as an alternative for “anarchism.” This is perfectly understandable, as the anarchist goal is freedom, liberty, and the ending of all hierarchical and authoritarian institutions and social relations.

Unfortunately, in the United States the term “libertarian” has become, since the 1970s, associated with the right-wing, i.e., supporters of “free-market” capitalism. That defenders of the hierarchy associated with private property seek to associate the term “libertarian” for their authoritarian system is both unfortunate and somewhat unbelievable to any genuine libertarian. Equally unfortunately, thanks to the power of money and the relative small size of the anarchist movement in America, this appropriation of the term has become, to a large extent, the default meaning there. Somewhat ironically, this results in some right-wing “libertarians” complaining that we genuine libertarians have “stolen” their name in order to associate our socialist ideas with it!

The facts are somewhat different. As Murray Bookchin noted, “libertarian” was “a term created by nineteenth-century European anarchists, not by contemporary American right-wing proprietarians.” [The Ecology of Freedom, p. 57] While we discuss this issue in An Anarchist FAQ in a few places (most obviously, section A.1.3) it is useful on the 150th anniversary to discuss the history of anarchist use of the word “libertarian” to describe our ideas.

The first anarchist journal to use the term “libertarian” was La Libertaire, Journal du Mouvement Social. Somewhat ironically, given recent developments in America, it was published in New York between 1858 and 1861 by French communist-anarchist Joseph Déjacque. The next recorded use of the term was in Europe, when “libertarian communism” was used at a French regional anarchist Congress at Le Havre (16-22 November, 1880). January the following year saw a French manifesto issued on “Libertarian or Anarchist Communism.” Finally, 1895 saw leading anarchists Sébastien Faure and Louise Michel publish La Libertaire in France. [Max Nettlau, A Short History of Anarchism, pp. 75-6, p. 145 and p. 162]

Link

reply to post by crazyewok

O I 100% agree on that I would round them up and shot them.

I’ll supply the ammo!

But I just dont like giveing out innocent peoples private personal data.

I don’t like that either. It doesn’t sound like the ‘people in the neighbor’ described in this letter are truly disabled. We all know someone (here in US) who collects disability but is able to work. We ALL know people who mooch off the system like parasites. Exposing the frauds was the intent I gathered from the letter. Whether or not this comes from TTP is questionable…I’ve never seen TTP target anyone outside of DC.

It all comes down to sustainability eventually... It really doesn't matter which side of the political divide you are on.

Deficit spending and national debt, domestic jobs and manufacturing leaving the country, outsourcing, immigration for cheap replacement labor, and over regulation and over taxing of businesses, job killing healthcare reforms, energy over regulation and restrictions, inability to compete with China and India on the global economic levels... I could go on and on...

We are faced with a system that is destroying itself, ultimately more and more people are going to turn to a government for assistance and/or survival that isn't going to be able to provide it.

What happens when it all collapses?

Will it matter whether you are republican or democrat? Liberal or conservative? Black or white? Disabled or not?

Originally posted by neo96

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by neo96

 

Rome fell roughly 525 years after those quotes. I'm guessing that Cicero's fears were a bit hyperbolic and rhetorical.

I think Roman 'liberals' of the time just called him a Tea Partier and sent out letters publishing who was on disability to marginalize him so they would not listen to what he was saying.

Given that he was a humanist and in favour of retaining the Roman republic at the time Caesar, Mark Anthony and Octavius were dismembering it, IMO Cicero was a "Roman liberal"!

reply to post by seabag


O its the same problem in the UK. My next door neigbour does it. They do the classic claim for back injury yet he is out in his backyard gardening every day. And there is so many loop holes ect And to make matters worse there are people with real disability that get turned down.

reply to post by crazyewok

Ok how am I wrong?

This thread isn't long enough to go in to detail.

USA has people defrauding its disability help so does the UK.

To the tune of 17 trillion dollars on one set of books

To the tune of over 100 trillion dollars of promises made that can never be paid for on another set of books.

ALL FIAT MONEY and CORPORATE PRODUCTS.

The USA is in massive debt so is the UK

And this issue is ?

WHAT ?

So were am I wrong?

ANYONE who supports the GD welfare industrial complex is WRONG.

How the hell did you get three starts for practcaly stateing F all? You just seem to post sound bites and witty one liners that have no substance what so ever.

Interesting comment to make considering that comment has exact NO SUBSTANCE.

And I am sure you will come back with some witty one liner or do what you normaly do when backed into a corner and call off topic or not intrested in which case I say

True both the comments above and the one preceding it has exactly nothing to do with the topic but hey take those pot shots as if it magically justifies ones position.

Here is a link to ignore too:

www.usdebtclock.org...

Current welfare spending alone for SS, and Medicare, and Medicaid is $2.2 trillion dollars( corporate products), and some so called safety net that has an average month paycheck of $1000k a month.

Current $1 trillion dollars for student loans another corporate product that is suppose to make people 'more successful' so they can get more fiat currency and corporate products.

Then take a good look at those unfunded liabilities you know promises made for corporate products that there is not enough cash or people working to pay for but who the hell cares right?

That is 125 trillion by the way.

Then take a good look at that $75 trillion in household assets.

Then take a look at over 10 trillion dollars of fiat currency in circulation called the M2 money supply.

But by all means IGNORE everything just to take those pot shots and grace us with that 'intellectual superiority complex'.

Even though they have yet to prove it.

We done here?

reply to post by Kali74

That is pure BS... Libertarianism was born on the Left and has zero to do with Progressivism. Progressives embrace equality through government, Left Libertarians do not like government.

Libertarianism is CENTER it is neither RIGHT NOR LEFT.

End of story.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Kali74

 

We are both human 1st and American 2nd so in that regard I will always have your back, I will always fight for your Liberty and I always respect your point of view even though I disagree with it. I don't expect thanks just not a kick in teeth either.

No teeth kicking on the interwebz…..just political banter displayed on a screen.

if Liberals aren't happy with Democrats, are Democrats really enacting much in the way of Liberal Policy?

Apparently not enough!

...and if Conservatives aren't happy with Republicans it's an automatic given that they aren't really Conservatives.

YUP!


I didn’t say democrats are all liberal or repubs are all conservative; obviously that’s not the case. Democrat/Repub are phony political parties, not ideologies. What I said is “liberal” and “left” is the same just as “right wing” and “conservative” is the same thing.

One of the biggest issues dividing Americans is whether we are supposed to ‘DO for ourselves’ or whether we’re ‘OWED’ something. IMO liberals/leftists (in the modern sense) all feel they are owed something and are entitled to a certain lifestyle for being born here. This feeling is reflected in their policies, the way they govern, and the way they act. There is no getting away from this entitlement mentality (seems to be growing), therefore we will always disagree and we will continue downhill. Anyone who thinks capitalism is to blame and government is a solution has no clue how this country got so far off track. This also means they have no realistic plan to fix it. Crying about cleaning up entitlements and expecting government to create jobs is proof as to how screwed we are!

So you're just determined to stay closed minded and hang onto your prejudices? Does your poop smell like roses exalted one? I think you rather enjoy having an enemy, groups to hate on... everyone not like you is less, right? How Libertarian of you.

reply to post by Indigo5


Are you asserting that the Tocqueville quote is incorrect? I've read "Democracy in America" and although I cannot say that I remember the exact quote, he spends a great deal of time demonizing the power of Democracy to literally undo one's Liberty. He focuses a great deal on how a simple majority could impede the liberties of the minority in a pure Democracy. He further asserts that a simple majority of proletariat could confiscate the wealth of the prior Aristocracy by majority and distribute the largesse.

Again, I don't think all of the answers lie on the interwebs. Even if the "quotes" are mere paraphrases, the concept and ideology have been alive since the dawning of Democracy. Just as much of history lived via verbal communication, I trust and believe (Being a student of Franklin's work and of US History) that the quote is consistent with much of Franklin's philosophy on government.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Kali74

 

That is pure BS... Libertarianism was born on the Left and has zero to do with Progressivism. Progressives embrace equality through government, Left Libertarians do not like government.

Libertarianism is CENTER it is neither RIGHT NOR LEFT.

End of story.

edit on 12-8-2013 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

No, that would be Liberalism.



Now picture that center line moving further and further right...

What else can be done when the people become dependent on Government? It is not the job of Government to create jobs, house and feed the poor, or otherwise create a welfare state. It is YOUR job as a citizen to provide for yourself. And if you are unable to, it's the job of your family or the church to provide for you. And if you somehow can't get assistance in that case, well, learn to live with the bed you made.

reply to post by Kali74

No, that would be Liberalism.

Then go tell all those people who claim to be 'liberal' they are not 'center'.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Kali74

 

No, that would be Liberalism.

Then go tell all those people who claim to be 'liberal' they are not 'center'.

What? That makes no sense at all... why would I do that when I've been saying liberal is center?

reply to post by muse7

It seems that the Tea Party "patriots" have hit a new low, they are now going around neighborhoods posting lists on intersections of people on disability, food stamps and other welfare services. Folks, this is not how you save a nation.

I agree. This is NOT how you save a nation... but I also understand the level politics from both sides will dive to make the other look horrid.

I know people who side with Tea Party concepts and they have no wish to deprive anyone of anything. They do, however, find it problematic that so many today depend on government for income. This does not question Social Security or the VA or any other system... it just asks for oversight.

For the record, I am NOT Tea Party... I prefer to apply politics with the basic approach that it is ALL fairly worthless and that with a few words, we can be divided to spat amongst ourselves... which does benefit those in Washington (and elsewhere) quite a lot.

So, what do we do?

It's your call... but as of right now, we are the house divided and we will not stand.

Originally posted by kozmo
reply to post by Indigo5

 

Are you asserting that the Tocqueville quote is incorrect?

YES....And I have provided multiple links, INCLUDING THE TEXT OF THE BOOK YOU CITED...Invited you to show it to me...The Qoute was not made by Tocqueville! Nor Tytler...Nor Franklin!!

Originally posted by kozmo
I've read "Democracy in America" and although I cannot say that I remember the exact quote, he spends a great deal of time demonizing the power of Democracy to literally undo one's Liberty. He focuses a great deal on how a simple majority could impede the liberties of the minority in a pure Democracy.

He said a lot...so does Rush Linmbaugh...but niether of them said the qoute you claimed he said.

Originally posted by kozmo
Again, I don't think all of the answers lie on the interwebs. Even if the "quotes" are mere paraphrases, the concept and ideology have been alive since the dawning of Democracy. Just as much of history lived via verbal communication, I trust and believe (Being a student of Franklin's work and of US History) that the quote is consistent with much of Franklin's philosophy on government.

What? I am not a big fan of people making up sources for qoutes. If the source is not important, then why invent one? Because obviously the lie supports the broader goal...that is the definition of propaganda. It is false credence...and intentional BS.

If your claim is that the qoute sounds like something Ben Franklin would have said...So why not attribute the qoute to him...or to retreat to Tocqueville, when Franklin is shown to not have said it...then when Tocqueville is shown to not have authored the qoute...you say...well...it sounds like something he would say...?

BS...And intentional BS...Lest I start "qouting" you in my responses and take the liberty to edit your text to content I think you would likely say?

reply to post by Kali74


Someone is saying liberals are center the REALITY IS THEY ARE ANYTHING BUT.

The fact is, it is not and has never been the Government's job to take care of people. If you can't understand that, you simply don't understand the ideals that this country was founded on. In that case, I suggest you move to a socialist state.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Kali74

 

Someone is saying liberals are center the REALITY IS THEY ARE ANYTHING BUT.

Lets see how many of you are in the center, left or right etc.

www.nolanchart.com...

I dare you to take that quiz and find out.

Originally posted by Schillinger
The fact is, it is not and has never been the Government's job to take care of people. If you can't understand that, you simply don't understand the ideals that this country was founded on. In that case, I suggest you move to a socialist state.

From the first days that our prehistoric ancestors gathered into tribes, the goal has been to "take care" of one another. When a hunter is injured amongst the tribe, he can heal and hunt again rather than starve to death. The elderly are used for thier wisdom, everyone shares best practices... Everyone benefits. Security, Education and Healthcare...benefit all members of the tribe.

If you don't understand the value in that then I suggest you move to a third world country.

reply to post by ausername


People can link all the charts they want they are charts.

Pay attention to the real world and see ideology in action.