Americans committed the worst genocide in world history

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by txinfidel

 

WAAYYY OFF!

Okay, why don't you give me your numbers? Do you have any?

My numbers say your numbers are whacked.

First of all, the wiki source you posted says what according to wiki happened in CLEAR ENGLISH.

Second, the numbers of population you cited in your OP correspond with those around 1300-1500 when the population was at its height. Then you go on to say the "Americans" genocided them all. Well yeah ok, but they were American only because at the time they were settled on the American continent.

The USA wasnt even established for at least another 250 years. Depending on whatever weird kinda math you like to do.

Then there was the whole point that they weren't even english, that wiped most of them out. THEY WERE SPANISH. And what is the NATIVE TONGUE of the indigenous? They learned SPANISH?

So while your trying to bash Americans, you missed the whole point where the people who had grouped together and learned the SAME NATIVE TONGUE, managed to kill off 90% of their own population.

You are a special kinda liberal arent you?

YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED to be an American.

America has failed you.

Please feel free to hit the exit and dont let the door hit your ass on the way out!!!

Good, we're all agreed then.
Humans often do bad things.

Part of the reason people seem to get confused about issues such as this is because we are taught as children that humans are all basically good by nature.

This teaching seemingly completely overlooks the fact that in human history, there has never been a documented prolonged period of human total peace/total none violence.....ever.

If "Humanity" was 50 people who didnt evolve from wild animals living in the garden of eden maybe a period of peace maybe a possibility.

Given that we are in fact evolved wild animals living in ridiculous super colonies on a rock with limited resources in the midst of infinity- we dont actually do too badly as one can easily imagine an alternative scenario where the worlds population is halved by constant widespread conflict like a WW3 scenario.

DP : mods please delete.

If you ask me (and my Cree girlfriend) the people that should be footing the bill for these atrocities and groveling posthumously are:

A) The crown of England (feel free to include Spain and other colonial powers here)

B) The vatican.

Regardless, these are issues that should be stamped in history books the same as the holocaust. It isn't about "guilt". It's about history.

Originally posted by caladonea

 

Also...they were many who immigrated from Europe; they wanted to settle in a new land and live in harmony with the Native Americans...and there were some Native Americans that were ruthless and killed and scalped those settlers.

That is the other side of the coin...

Really, do you live on a reservation now? Did the "Indians" invade Europe?

I understand your point but what you say is exactly what I decried in the OP. The overwhelming death toll and other 'outcomes' were detrimental to the Natives not the settler. We did not suffer the genocide. You may continue to ignore and deny the reality but if you do, you will not learn the lesson that it teaches.

Seeing that disease killed 70-90 percent, I would have to say the "genocide" label is just a pretext to try and make the US, villain number one, all time.

reply to post by FidelityMusic


What did "The Trail Of Tears" have to do with Europeans? The US was a stand alone independent country when this occured.

en.wikipedia.org...

The one thing that i find hypocritical about some Irish Americans, is they funded the IRA to get Britain out of Ireland. They say the British occupied someone else's country. These are the same Irish Americans who live in an occupied country called The US. The irony.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


I am looking at the total picture; and I do understand what you are saying.

reply to post by sonnny1


Just the villain of the day.

Tomorrow it will be Africa...until everyone dies.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


Oh same old story,It used to be called "Mainfest Destiny" basicly the east pushed west raping and killing the "savages" with superior numbers and technology so that they could colonize their land. At least they still have some of their history,South America got reamed by the Spanish.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by Metallicus

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't feel guilty.

You should be sorry. We are talking about millions of people killed, entire civilizations wiped out, by your ancestors and mine.

And you don't even ask yourself why?

Maybe you have never been on the "other side" of history.

Actually I have never been on either side of history and neither have you so again, what exactly is your point?

I have never killed someone nor do I intend to do so in the future. I have enough problems in the here and now and so does our world. If you really want to deal with something then deal with problems in the world today not something that happened a hundred years ago.

Is your life really so boring that you need to look for something to feel bad about?

Mine isn't.

One should not be ashamed to write something like that, it is history of mankind.
Everywhere in the world lots of blood has been shed, and blood is shed as we speak this very moment.
One should not see himself as an aggressor or a victim when looking and studying the past because one is an american, european or christian and so on, one should learn from it and break this chain of violence.

What is nationality anyway, just a label, and you want to use that label to put blame on those who are american.
We are humans, no matter where we are born, and so long as we have not freed ourself from the known, we are very violent.

Originally posted by sonnny1

 

About all this there is no essential disagreement. The most hideous enemy of native Americans was not the white man and his weaponry, concludes Alfred Crosby,"but the invisible killers which those men brought in their blood and breath." It is thought that between 75 to 90 percent of all Indian deaths resulted from these killers.

Sounds perfectly rational. Except it does not pass my "smell test".

At closer inspection it is about as convincing as a pharmaceutical study made by the manufacurer of the medicine.

Alfred Crosby was Native or European descent? A little bias there?

90% Natives died because of a lack of immunity to our European pathogens. What luck! And what caused the Europeans to be immune to the Native pathogens?

Originally posted by txinfidel

 

You are a special kinda liberal arent you?

Please feel free to hit the exit and dont let the door hit your ass on the way out!!!

"liberal"? What does that have to do with this? It shows some people can only think in black and white. If they're white and they don't like it, of course it's black. You are making my point, we're Zombies.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by FidelityMusic
Correction, the Europeans committed the worst genocide in world history. I don't know where you get calling the Europeans "Americans," or even confusing them.

I get it, its not the Americans' fault. Never mind that they were Americans by then. Never mind that they're our grandparents.

Just as I said, Americans don't get blamed.

They were Americans by then? You do know that most of the Indians died through disease brought by the Europeans, while millions of others were raped and murdered by the Spaniards in the Caribbeans, North, Central, and South America. Also my Grandparents were Spaniards, African Slaves, and Taino Indians from the island of Borinquen, now known as the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, which is technically an American Island full of people who don't know English, don't know American history, and don't consider themselves Americans. So no, they weren't my Grandparents, although my Spaniard Grandparents from centuries back, the ones who smashed babies skulls into rocks, the ones who raped countless Indian women, the ones with no care for life, are to blame and are some of the worst humans to walk this Earth.

The Americans don't even scratch the surface, there's no comparison to what the Europeans did, none whatsoever.

Originally posted by Jukiodone

 

Good, we're all agreed then.
Humans often do bad things.

Part of the reason people seem to get confused about issues such as this is because we are taught as children that humans are all basically good by nature.

This teaching seemingly completely overlooks the fact that in human history, there has never been a documented prolonged period of human total peace/total none violence.....ever.

Humans often do bad things, yes. But my thread is not about what humans did. It is about the reaction, or absence of reaction to it.

The thread is about learning from history because there is something important that can be learned from it. When we don't acknowledge the reality of it, we cannot learn from it.

One lesson is that we are willing to wear colored glasses depending on whose history we view. The other lesson is that if we (our kind) were willing to do this, we may be willing to do it again, if circumstances were similar. You think we are doing fine, but only until the circumstances have changed accordingly. That we had a long period of peace will be, at that point, of little consolation.

This is true. But the 'Indians' did to their own kind what the whites did to them as they were pushed from their traditional lands into the interior....or do you not know that part of the history also?

Also it was the British that first started it.

You see you assume this is an 'American' problem...when it's actually a HUMAN one.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by sonnny1

 

About all this there is no essential disagreement. The most hideous enemy of native Americans was not the white man and his weaponry, concludes Alfred Crosby,"but the invisible killers which those men brought in their blood and breath." It is thought that between 75 to 90 percent of all Indian deaths resulted from these killers.

Sounds perfectly rational. Except it does not pass my "smell test".

At closer inspection it is about as convincing as a pharmaceutical study made by the manufacurer of the medicine.

Alfred Crosby was Native or European descent? A little bias there?

90% Natives died because of a lack of immunity to our European pathogens. What luck! And what caused the Europeans to be immune to the Native pathogens?

Does your sense of smell have a sense of factual source to support calling everyone who disagrees in good faith, wrong or misinformed? At the moment...lack of sources mean an absolute lack of believing or giving much benefit to the doubt.

As it happens, the figures Sonnny quoted hit pretty close to what I had last semester in my Geo course...which covered Native American culture and the summary of it's rise and fall from the Siberian land crossing to the end of the Indian Wars around the turn of the 20th century. Disease is what killed a good %, if not major majority.

Best estimates I saw anywhere with factual basis and anything but "cause I said so" credibility place hostile deaths between 1 and 5 million with some saying even that is a bit on the high side. Hard to say....but 10's of millions? Evidence...there is simply no evidence. Nada. Zippo. Not for those figures to be flatly stated as combat or murder for cause.

Guns, Germs and Steel
That is what opened my Geo course at the college last year. A very interesting movie and it may start slow, but by the end, it was quite frankly one of the best periods of time I've ever spent in learning history. The man dedicated a lifetime to not just reading, but traveling to each place to see, hear and speak with people to confirm what the evidence shows. It's worth the time, IMO.

Originally posted by sonnny1
Seeing that disease killed 70-90 percent, I would have to say the "genocide" label is just a pretext to try and make the US, villain number one, all time.

It's a lame excuse but you are entitled to believe it.

Originally posted by Metallicus

 

Is your life really so boring that you need to look for something to feel bad about?
Mine isn't.

Then why are you on ATS? I am trying to learn from history, either to repeat it or not to repeat it. You seem to have no concern for the future. That's okay, just enjoy your life until next time when you get the part of the 'Natives'.