Americans committed the worst genocide in world history

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


Many Americans are actually descended from the native people,. One of the biggest killers was disease introduced by the white settlers which the native's had no immunity to and this is why a similar settling of Africa failed as the natives there were not only immune but had a few diseases to pass to the white settler's, it is theorised that syphilis may have originated in the Americas.
However,.
The Inhumanity with which the native American peoples were met was nothing short of horrendous and totally evil, there are still some alive whom are proud of there ancestors whom slaughtered men and woman and children, some US cavalry soldiers and possibly also Custers men well here you go, you have heard of the Indian bone knives, the Indian skin wallets and boot's, well you know the Tassels that hung around there hat's, well it is a historic fact and there are some surviving examples of these being substituted with the dried womb and fallopian with the ovary's still attached as tassels on some of there hat's, I remember seeing this on a documentary and feeling ill at the thought, god knows what them poor girls suffered.
For some things God will never forgive but it is those responsible not the innocent whom are also heir to the native American spirit that must answer.
As someone whom is Part Maori my ancestors in new Zealand were also conned with a treaty that said two different things.
But those born now are innocent though not yet clean of the stain of this sin.

The interesting question for me is how would have evolved the native american culture to this day, sociologically speaking ? I am not a native american culture specialist at all, not even an amateur with a particular interest in native american culture, but from what I have read here and there, that culture (which was also multiple) was kind of unique. If they were 50 millions, how many would they be today if there hadn't been the european interference that we know ? How would have evolved their sociological structure, would they be today a leading sociological group in the world ? Would they be pacifists who would have contributed greatly to the sociological advancement of the human species ? What would be their take on capitalism, what would they have to say about what could be the best socio-economic system for mankind ? I have a feeling that they would have contributed in a unique way to mankind's advancement, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.

So many questions which will never be answered. I would like to hear the opinion of someone with better knowledge than me on the subject.

reply to post by gosseyn


It was a closer run thing that you think as when the Viking encountered the natives of new foundland they were driven off but, what if there culture had traded and the iron working technology had been past to the natives and later the gun and the cannon via Iceland, Hmm another possible world becomes apparent that never happened.

Originally posted by alldaylong

Originally posted by tadaman
reply to post by alldaylong

 

name one that was not.....

Afghanistan

Many have tried and many have failed.

You can also add Finland. These countries have been invaded but the invaders where kicked out. The countries reverted back to there own peoples. Unlike the US who's indigenous peoples where ethnically cleansed.

Both Finland and Afganistan have spent large parts if not most their history under other peoples rule. Their religion, language and culture are a result of those occupaions. Their people are nothing like those who were there at the start. History goes back further than 1900.

Originally posted by MrSpad

Originally posted by alldaylong

Originally posted by tadaman
reply to post by alldaylong

 

name one that was not.....

Afghanistan

Many have tried and many have failed.

You can also add Finland. These countries have been invaded but the invaders where kicked out. The countries reverted back to there own peoples. Unlike the US who's indigenous peoples where ethnically cleansed.

Both Finland and Afganistan have spent large parts if not most their history under other peoples rule. Their religion, language and culture are a result of those occupaions. Their people are nothing like those who were there at the start. History goes back further than 1900.

I believe the peoples of Finland for instance speak Finnish. What language do North Americans speak? I bet it's not one of the Native American languages.
99% of countries throughout the world have been invaded at sometime. However in most cases the invaders either left by their own free will or where kicked out.
Not so the case of North America. They stayed occupied the country and have made it their own. There lies the difference.

Originally posted by gosseyn
The interesting question for me is how would have evolved the native american culture to this day, sociologically speaking ? I am not a native american culture specialist at all, not even an amateur with a particular interest in native american culture, but from what I have read here and there, that culture (which was also multiple) was kind of unique. If they were 50 millions, how many would they be today if there hadn't been the european interference that we know ? How would have evolved their sociological structure, would they be today a leading sociological group in the world ? Would they be pacifists who would have contributed greatly to the sociological advancement of the human species ? What would be their take on capitalism, what would they have to say about what could be the best socio-economic system for mankind ? I have a feeling that they would have contributed in a unique way to mankind's advancement, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.

So many questions which will never be answered. I would like to hear the opinion of someone with better knowledge than me on the subject.

That's a great point and redeeming of the whole topic, really, though also, very sad. For you bring up great points that are basic about those tribal cultures, that we lack today, which are both why they survived as they did as long as they did, culturally intact, and also the reason why the "white" man came to destroy them.

I don't think they'd have any "take" on capatilism whatsoever. That is exactly what I mention above. It was a barter structure, and thereby, an individuals worth to the tribe was more direct, and much less obfuscated and malleable by charm, or social networking......
You produced as a hunter, enough to take care of your own, and share, with others' in need, or your deceased brother in law's wife and children, who you are now responsible for, or not..... You honored those committments or were cast out on your own. It wasn't about your smile, or how many people were followers of your tweets or whatever.

Life and survival were more directly, obviously linked, and out of that, as well, comes a respect we lack today. The Sioux, called "the people," tribally, understood their link to the land, that it could not be owned, that we ask of it to provide us with support, and worshipped it as the essential element in life, along with the Great Spirit that allowed for their, (and our), existence, and understood the earth to have a life of its own that they coexisted with in a mutually beneficial, co dependent relationship.

Anyway, thanks for making me think of these things all over again. I frequently don't, simply because this slaughter was heartbreaking, and I think, defined our society today as doomed; something was lost intrinsically, character wise for what would come afterwards, after that supposed "last stand."

reply to post by Metallicus


Who said you had to feel guilty. The point the op was making is that, just like the world acknowledges what the Nazis did to the Jews, the world needs to think about what the US did to the natives on an equal footing as they do towards that.

It’s not about making modern feel guilty it’s about admitting the truth of history and for Americans to think before being so self-righteous.

An explanation?

An explanation for the death of the Native Americans is going to be a lot more complex than Stalin and Hitler's genocides. It was done piecemeal, and often unintentionally. (The settler who's defending himself against an Indian attack doesn't think, "Gosh, I'm helping in our multi-generational master plan to destroy the natives!") The Indians were hit very hard by disease from Europe–I think that accounts for most of the deaths, to be honest–but a lot of the new arrivals dealt with them very well. Relations between some of the settlers and Indians were pretty cordial, at least at times.
But when wars started, perhaps by a few foolish or stupid or aggressive parties on either side...I don't think there was really any way either side saw to wage the war but total destruction. The whites, certainly, had no problem wiping out whole villages. Today we see that as barbaric, but I think that these tactics were born of a desire not to have to fight the same war twice. This wasn't because of a desire to eliminate a race of people, but rather to ensure lasting peace.
A lot of damage, honestly, was probably done by people trying to help. French priests trying to treat diseases that they were unknowingly spreading. Jackson may have been trying to help the Cherokees when he (in defiance of the Supreme Court) forced them away from the hostile Georgians.
Later, I think, the desire to more systemically eliminate (kill or pacify) what were viewed as really annoying savages was conceived, say post-Civil War. I believe it was Sherman who had his men kill buffalo to starve the Indians out. Manifest Destiny, this cockeye idea that a lot of Americans had that America was destined to spread from sea to shining sea (self-fulfilling prophecy, right there) didn't help anything.

In the final analysis, I don't think there was any one reason that it happened, besides human nature. Disease I think was probably the worst killer. (Anyone have data on that?) But, regrettably, cultures have a way of overtaking and supplanting or destroying their weaker neighbors. Shoot, the Romans probably killed a lot more people than the Europeans and later Americans did in North America...but we don't call that genocide, we call that conquest. I think the Americans were even less intentional and methodical than the Romans...a lot of blundering, messing around, treaties (made and broken).
I don't think this was inevitable. If Jackson had enforced the Supreme Court's ruling, we might have a Cherokee Nation still here in the US, instead of just another part of Georgia.
Maybe someday!

reply to post by LABTECH767

One of the biggest killers was disease introduced by the white settlers which the native's had no immunity to

This has been mentioned a few times and its true, but another thing introduced to the natives by white men was liquor for which they had no tolerance. Once that was known, booze became another powerful tool for subjugation and taking the land.

Some 400 treaties have been made between the two cultures. Many of these agreements were negotiated with Indian leaders who lacked the authority among their people to commit their nations. Bribery, alcohol, fraud, and trickery riddle the history of treaties between the parties, and produced agreements any modern Court outside of the U.S. or its control would likely rule unenforceable.

That begs the question:

Remember the old saying, "Someone who gossips with you will gossip about you?" Maybe we could modify that to: A government that betrays an agreement with another, will betray one with you. It's especially corrupt when that government tries to project moral perfection and fairness onto the rest of the world. Any agency of power, legitimate or otherwise, that is capable of treating whole nations the way the U.S. has treated Indians, has proved it has the capacity and willingness to do so when it suits its purposes. Sitting idly by is no longer acceptable. Think about it.

earthkeeper.freeservers.com...

To which we already have the answer. We have been betrayed, over and over and over. Who will sympathize with us when we are destitute and our land is taken?

Why is it when it comes to numbers killed, we get Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, all individuals, but yet the USA gets all her numbers lumped together?

Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman


Astounding how stupid the whole world is collectively. We are smart individually but like a Zombie collectively. Can anybody explain this?

What do you want?

REVENGE?

REPARATIONS?

The Mohammedan Conquest, The Romans, the list goes on and on.

I just dont know what you really are getting at, except maybe a history lesson, or a passing fancy at taking a Swipe at America.

History is inundated with Countries getting Passes. We are doomed to repeat. The Truth.

edit on 2-8-2013 by sonnny1 because: (no reason given)

I think what the op may be implying is to get the US from being so self-righteous and pompous with the attitude of the some Americans with their: “America is the greatest country and the does the greatest good”
An attitude, in the light of what the op reminds us, is absurd.

It is wise imo to be humble if you are great but with the history of genocide and other acts towards others America has to be humble with their bloody history.

America has done some good but it has a lot to make up for.

Ohhh #!! You just stirred up a hornets nest.
I don't even have to read any further than the title.

Judging by the title alone I presume you are referring to the almost complete annihilation of the Native American Race.

You are no doubt going to get inundated with pro-MURRCAN posts by the red necks who are "proud to be MURRCAN"!!!!! YEEEEEHAW!!!!

They'll give you all sorts of reasons why it was OK or didn't happen that way, or didn't happen at all or just flat out ignore it or pretend that it wasn't that important.
Lie,deny,justify,minimize,counter accuse,deflect,distort,etc etc.

I've seen it all a thousand times if I've seen it once.

GO MURRCA!!!!!
BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!!

"Iffn' euwww donn like it, then geeet out"!!!!
[spits some chaw into the spittoon. then wipes mouth as he snorts real loud]
Then Lee Greenwood slowly fades in


"And I'm PRoud to be an A-MURRCan, where at least I know I'm safe....''

Originally posted by Metallicus

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by Metallicus

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't feel guilty.

You should be sorry. We are talking about millions of people killed, entire civilizations wiped out, by your ancestors and mine.

And you don't even ask yourself why?

Maybe you have never been on the "other side" of history.

Actually I have never been on either side of history and neither have you so again, what exactly is your point?

I have never killed someone nor do I intend to do so in the future. I have enough problems in the here and now and so does our world. If you really want to deal with something then deal with problems in the world today not something that happened a hundred years ago.

Is your life really so boring that you need to look for something to feel bad about?

Mine isn't.

With all due respect, if you are so smug about life’s injustices why do you even comment on the op here?

The man is just trying to relate to us his inner empathy for another group (outside of his own kind)

I for one commend the op

I wonder why you even bother to comment if you don’t give a dam

It’s about making us all aware of true history and understanding its pitfalls and hopefully it won’t happen again, but of course we know it will and one reason it will happen again is if we forget and stop reminding ourselves of it.

We should never forget and honor the victims and with all our might try to prevent it from happening again.

Of course we should never forget that this evil can be done by any race or religion not just Americans and also any of us can be victims of it as well.

None of us are isolated form the actions of our country, that even may today do equal atrocities on people such as the million children who died in the Iraq sanctions.

We can’t divorce ourselves from this.

reply to post by mymymy


Actually you have a point as well as a cool cat, This makes an interesting read as before the 2nd world war Stalin may have killed in excess of 20 million.
en.wikipedia.org...
Here is the death toll estimate for the entire second world war.
www.warchronicle.com...
How many did the mongols kill,
answers.yahoo.com...
It seems the so called old world is a very violent place.

not only the old world, the world today is just as violent

Diseases killed most of the Native Americans. They had no immunity against diseases like smallpox.

One of the most devastating diseases was smallpox, but other deadly diseases included typhus, measles, influenza, bubonic plague, cholera, malaria, tuberculosis, mumps, yellow fever, and pertussis (whooping cough), which were chronic in Eurasia.

en.wikipedia.org...

One big reason for this is that Eurasians used domesticated animals more. Pigs, cows, chickens etc. all intermingling with each other and with people. This a great breeding ground for diseases which is still occurring today. The Native Americans did give Europeans a nasty strain of syphilis.

The OP logic is flawed, it's like saying the Chinese committed genocide in Europe, when the Black Death or bubonic plague, spread by trade, killed 1/3 or more of all Europeans in the 14th century.

reply to post by LABTECH767


Thanks for the kitty compliment

And thanks for the links, Will give me some good reading (sounds bad saying it like that I know)

But yea, I wish someone could give a total on how many were killed by each country during its lifetime, I'm sure the USA's numbers would be far lower even in ratio to being so much younger

Originally posted by mymymy
I'm sure the USA's numbers would be far lower even in ratio to being so much younger

WOW, the good ol' minimization tactic.
It's a good one.
Works alot of the time especially with the weaker minded amongst us.

If it doesn't, see my post above and pick another one.
They're all great tactics.

Originally posted by gosseyn
The interesting question for me is how would have evolved the native american culture to this day, sociologically speaking ?

The Native Americans were still in the Bronze Age when we arrived. They didn't have iron or steel. That means Europeans had about a 2000 year lead, technologically.

If disease hadn't killed so many, the America's would be very different today, with Native Americans making up a larger percentage of the population. Culturally, it's hard to say what it would be like, maybe like South Africa?

reply to post by alldaylong


sooo....you mention Afghanistan .....one of the most disputed areas that has NEVER seen peace since prehistoric times due to the influx of nomadic people disputing territory with rival tribes since times lost as your example of a "peacefully" founded nation......?oh and ANYWHERE in europe......nice.

This is just absurd. You really need some time studying what You preach.....