The Purest form of Christianity, was Eastern Orthodoxy, the Desert Fathers, Monks, Hermits, & Mystic

reply to post by Murgatroid


I do believe the Church has been around a lot longer than Masons have. But the question is, based your theory anyway, who used it first? Simply BECAUSE a "pagan" symbol appears in a church, doesn't mean it was infiltrated. The all seeing eye for example, was a primitive expression of the trinity long before other organizations picked it up and misused it.

Think of the swastika. You see it now and think Nazi, yet it wasn't always so.

reply to post by IsidoreOfSeville

Not only that, but the all seeing eye could also represent the Third eye, which would be a spiritual organ waiting to be awakened within every human being regardless of religious background....or as Jesus said, "If thine be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."

reply to post by dominicus


How do you think about the contemplative movement of fr. thomas keating?
His statements on youtube shine a very bright on spiritual development within the catholic tradition.
Will this attempt bring the deepening of the spiritual dimension back into the catholic church?

Originally posted by RobSch5
reply to post by dominicus

 

How do you think about the contemplative movement of fr. thomas keating?
His statements on youtube shine a very bright on spiritual development within the catholic tradition.
Will this attempt bring the deepening of the spiritual dimension back into the catholic church?

I doubt it, cause contemplation is not really discussed in the Catholics. I was raised Catholic and my whole family mostly still are, well lapsed catholics anyway, and they all look at me like I'm crazy alien from mars if I bring up Contemplation. Catholicism lead me to Atheism early, before eventually doing a 360 and coming back to Christ himself devoid of any religions.

That's the problem: There are no active contemplation programs being discussed, promoted, or given as an option in the majority of Catholicism, unless one has a hunch about it and ends up coming across folks like Keating who emphasize and discuss the importance of doing so.

Catholic church is dead, it's almost gone in England, in the States its mostly the Grandpa/Grandma generations that are still actively going. The Future Chirstian will be a Christian Mystic, or he will not exist at all. I say that because the Christian/Follower of Christ who practices contemplation, will eventually get Indwelled by the Holy Spirit and experience directly Mystical realities, ego death, divine Love, and so forth.

It is a personal path of solitude between you and God. Church is just a place where you can come together socially under the auspices of Following the Same path, yet each individual is in different places on their own path, and those who do not actively contemplate and work on letting go of the ego, remain in a perpetual state of the ego judging, running the show, and the battle between heart and mind.

Plus Keating was a Monk, a person who worked on himself ALL DAY LONG. The average joe, on the other hand, has a mortgage, chores, work, wife, kids, obligations, etc all of which leave barely any time for contemplation until the kids are raised, out of the house, and everything else like duties/obligations/chores, is cut to a minnimum for the sake of deepening practice.

WHat we are left with today then, is just an empty shell of what Christianity once was. Yet scattrede about here and there, in some churches, monasteries, chapels, amongst denominations and with hermits, is folks who are really chipping away at Union with God and Enlightenment. Though you wouldnt know it if you met them, just like most folks doubted Jesus when he was in the flesh walking around.

reply to post by dominicus


I think within Christianity will always be a reservation towards mysticism.
Cause there are two dangers from the viewpoint of the church: you can loose the Church and / or Jesus
and realize that you can continue by yourself or with help of other traditions. Maybe the first happened to you or maybe both, i don't know.
However, the mystic dimension can bring different spiritual paths into a place where they can be compared and viewed as equal.
When people do this, they may see that another religion is more direct and fits better, so they follow it. This cannot be accepted by the church, therefore a defense mechanism starts to work.
Maybe this are the underlying reasons why there is criticism towards the Contemplative Movement, Christian Meditation and People like Keating, Thomas Merton, Richard Rohr from catholics, protestants, eastern orthodox and so on.
On the other hand in Germany I see sometimes within the Catholic and Protestant Church an acceptance of Zen, Yoga and QiGong, at least within their buildings :-) So there is a need for deepening experiences and often the faith is strong enough to include Eastern Practices into christianity instead of abandoning it.

When you have been to the Eastern Orthodox Monastery / Church, did you participate to the liturgy and eucharist?
How do you see these in the context of spiritual awakening / mysticism?
If these questions are too personal for the public thread, I would be glad to receive a PM

reply to post by dominicus


Do you have any comments?

reply to post by RobSch5

Do you have any comments?

yeah, sorry mate, went out of town for 3 days to look at some small hobby farms.

I think within Christianity will always be a reservation towards mysticism. Cause there are two dangers from the viewpoint of the church: you can loose the Church and / or Jesus

All outsiders of Mysticism view it in certain light, even though the correct light is the experiential one. As a Christian Mystic myself, I have definitely stepped away from the Church, because they rejected me based on my experiences, One's which even the leaders/pastors/theologians didn't have, which means the blind are leading the blind all based on logic/reason/seminary training. Its the Holy Spirit that makes you a leader of teaching the things of Christ, if the Gift is given to you.

Eventually I found several monasteries of various denominations, all of whom basically say, "Yes, the Western denominations are practically dead to Enlightenment/Union." Save for a few who make it through the cracks and figure it out on their own that there are deeper experiences, ego death, bliss, etc.

What we see in the West, is basically the Thief of the Cross's Path. Kind of a last minute singy songy feel good session for beginners. (the Milk). Whereas the Meat is the Ego Death and inner experiences, but that's hard to find in the West, while in the East, and certain Monasteries, they are basically Enlightenment/Union schools which clean out the Subconscious so you "sin no more" by being completely in Union w/ God, ego is permanently killed, basically Saint Schools. Although the graduation rate is up for debate

and realize that you can continue by yourself or with help of other traditions. Maybe the first happened to you or maybe both, i don't know.

Look a Christ, he was against the Churches cause he knew the leaders were blind. Judaism still to this day is deader than a dead horse spiritually speaking, unless you start to crack what's in the Kaballah, but even then, you can still end up empty.

Just like in his day, today too, the majority Churches are dead and those that do breathe life into you, eventually it's up to you to go it alone. That's what disciples did anyway. There was no Church for them, except to follow the examples of Christ. Then when he know's he's about to depart Earth, he says: I will send you a Comforter, the Holy Spirit.

That comforter kills your ego, gives, you the Now, timelessness, Bliss, No Fear, it's enlightenment through Grace. Then in the Bible it says, (paraphrased) that once you get the Holy Spirit, no man can teach you anymore. BEcause with the Spirit, your getting direct mystical access to God, to within, to your Soul, to ego death...and man can't teach those things cause they have to be known first hand.

However, the mystic dimension can bring different spiritual paths into a place where they can be compared and viewed as equal. When people do this, they may see that another religion is more direct and fits better, so they follow it. This cannot be accepted by the church, therefore a defense mechanism starts to work.

OF course. The famous Christian defense, is JEsus saying he is the only way. LEt's look at context though. He's speaking to a bunch of Jews who say and believe that Judaism and fulfilling 800-some-odd rules is the only way. So Jesus could have easily gotten riled up, and meant: "No, your way is not the only way, I am the only way, the truth, the light."

What sets Christianity apart from many other paths, is that it's very easy. Jesus said, "My yolk is light." All you do is learn, follow, practice what he taught, get baptized, and then Grace becomes activated as the Spirit and does the rest. In some churches, they refer to "ego death," as getting "slayed by the Spirit." It's alive and well, just scattered about.

However, it's also incomplete. The NT, is Jesus watering it down to simpletons. There is no mention that you are not the ego or the body. ALl those impulses that rise up and tempt you, are not you. And there is no talk that if you suppress lust, anger, hatred, etc, that it comes back 100-fold. The correct way is contemplation, fasting, observing, vigil, seeing that what arises is not you and is temporary.

Maybe this are the underlying reasons why there is criticism towards the Contemplative Movement, Christian Meditation and People like Keating, Thomas Merton, Richard Rohr from catholics, protestants, eastern orthodox and so on.

The correct view as a Christian should be seeing every-thing-one as One, in Love, no labels, no divisions, non-judgment, Bliss, forgiveness, etc. All the criticism is unfounded and comes from ignorance by folks who lack the Spirit or lack contemplative practice, and because of that lack, there is missing inner wisdom

reply to post by RobSch5

On the other hand in Germany I see sometimes within the Catholic and Protestant Church an acceptance of Zen, Yoga and QiGong, at least within their buildings :-) So there is a need for deepening experiences and often the faith is strong enough to include Eastern Practices into christianity instead of abandoning it.

I mean, that's few and far between. Too many purists out there and I understand why they are out there. Christianity is a complete system in and of itself. Done the correct way, it covers the channels opening that are in qi-gong, it covers Union which is the goal of yoga, it covers just about everything except stretching and perhaps tai chi.

When you have been to the Eastern Orthodox Monastery / Church, did you participate to the liturgy and eucharist?

Yes of course. At first I thought it was pointless. But soon found that in some sessions, the Holy Spirit is there and indwelling the Monks, slaying their ego's one by one, and during those services, some Monks go into Union and pray for the world, and I even saw what look like Halo's around the heads of a few elders who were already deeply established in Union.

The services are also a form of discipline. The ego doesn't want to go and do it because it's practically the same everyday, and the services are like every 2-4 hours. So what it does, is it brings out the worst in you because your not used to it, and when you become aware of the ego, is when you can distance yourself from it by seeing that "it" isn't you. Plus like I said, the services are massively empowering. I did communion once at a Monastery retreat, and all the Monks were looking at me in anticipation for the moment the wafer was placed on my tongue, something I've done countless times before and never really thought anything about it.

Well, at this place, supposedly the communion there is Mystically empowered by the Spirit. I did not know that ahead of time. I visited this place because I heard it was "special" and "you never forget it." SO once the Wafer hit the tongue, my whole body lit up with Bliss and Love, channels started opening throughout the body and electric currents flowing...I literally had to take a seat after that.

How do you see these in the context of spiritual awakening / mysticism? If these questions are too personal for the public thread, I would be glad to receive a PM

I mean, I think I covered it well. See the thread in my signature and you'll discover exactly how the Monks in the Monasteries reach Enlightenment/Union. Stuff I have actually experienced the beginnings of, and it has to do with you dropping out of the head, falling through the neck, and into the heart. It's actually quite simple, just constant surrender and letting go of all things: name, body, gender, personality, ego, thought, 5 senses, and then BOOM, you get your first glimpse of the Supreme One that Jesus refered to as "I and the Father are One."

However, it really come down to practice. It is said that to be a skilled violinist, you need something like 1-3 hours a day over a few years to start to scratch the surface. Same with the Union/ENlightenment deal. But the beauty of this, is that you can literally fall into Union on a walk in a Park (if you're ripe for it), or on a bike ride, or with year one of contemplation, or within months of Grace being activated.

None of it too personal, I literally spill me guts out when it comes to the Spiritual stuff. You know, I remember pre-existing and being shown that all of existence is connected like an infinite tapestry. That if you make one person smile, it effects the whole. If you show person the way to Union, it also effects the whole. So this time here, to write you, to share, to urge you to go within and find what I speak of yourself, is of the utmost importance and the reason why I came here.....because there really is a time coming when Christianity will be dead, and the last remaining Christians will be the Mystics.

The fact that the majority of my awakenings and preliminary ego deaths, and the permanent Now/Timelessness/Transcendence that is still with me a decade later, means that I have no choice than to confirm for the remainder of my life that Christ is my best friend, master, teacher, brother, saint, angel, etc....

However, I have also had brilliant further awakenings from Zen Koans. Christ's parables can be considered Koans as well. Good talks though, quite enjoyable to go back and forth

reply to post by dominicus


It seems I cannot send you personal messages, because you are member of the ATS board, right?

reply to post by RobSch5


No, not at all.......just a regular poster like yourself. That's odd!!!! I get u2u's from ATs members all the time a frequently indulge and correspondences on various topics

reply to post by dominicus


Is there an evil force beyond the ego, that can mislead somebody on the spiritual path?

reply to post by dominicus


The purest form of Christ's teachings are very rare to find. I am still currently on the look out for other orders that are even remotely close to them. Nevertheless, it's its a teaching about love and others it's on the right path.

Originally posted by RobSch5
reply to post by dominicus

 

Is there an evil force beyond the ego, that can mislead somebody on the spiritual path?

edit on 26-8-2013 by RobSch5 because: (no reason given)

Evil forces act on the Ego, because the ego, as the conscious part that you are aware of, also has an Unconscious part that you are not aware of. So evil forces can basically plant seeds into the subconscious, so that they eventually rise up to the conscious level, tricking you into thinking that you are the one the needs to drink, smoke, steal, cheat, lie, murder, etc.

Even in the Bible, there's a verse that says that Satan shoots arrows at you, and those arrows are implanted thoughts/impulses. Also, people have Spirits/Souls attached to them many times, that cause them to be addicts of certain substances, or porn, or money, or porn or whatever. Just the other day, I stayed at a hotel that was Haunted, and had to cast the ghost out in the name of Christ so I can get some sleep. IF your Third eye opens, you would literally see the space around us being populated by as many souls/spirits/evil/good as there are people.

If you click the link on my Signature, it's all explained there. However I must warn you, the Subconscious is filled with archetypes, animalism of the body, carnal things, programs that would destroy you if you faced it. It takes practice and a gradual descent into the depths. That's why the Desert Fathers, and Monks still to this day, do the Jesus Prayer, because it acts as an Anchor and Protection as you start to Spring Clean the Subconscious.

The Spiritual trap is filled with TONS of traps, distractions, ego, trickery, etc. But there are various ways to conquer all of that.

The purest form of Christ's teachings so far I have only found in one place, The Old Apsotolic Faith. I am still currently on the look out for other orders that are even remotely close to them.

Check out The Philokalia and writings of the Desert Fathers.

reply to post by dominicus


What do you think about moveless silent meditation, in such situations. Just presence and equanimity and allowing everything arise and dissolve and finally exhaust itself?

Originally posted by RobSch5
reply to post by dominicus

 

What do you think about moveless silent meditation, in such situations. Just presence and equanimity and allowing everything arise and dissolve and finally exhaust itself?

Yes, this is KEY!!!!!!! It's part of many Paths, and is lacking in the majority of Christianity.

However there is something very vital to this kind of meditation, and that's to be stabilized as the observer/awareness of all of the arising & dissolving. If you don't do that, then "ego" will mix with "practice."

For example, then the ego will say, "I just sat in moveless silent meditation, I am getting ready to sit in moveless silent meditation, I am making progress and growing...."

That 'I' and inner voice in the head is not you. That's a very important step to realize. One of the greatest blueprints for Union, Enlightenment, Theosis/Deification is the book, "The Cloud of Unknowing," which is just the practice of Unknowing everything, name, inner voice, ego, thought, subconscious, body, senses, etc, then eventually you drop into the heart and bypass everything by direct Union.

ALso, the practice you refer to, a Baptizim should be added to that. For example, go get baptized, or re-baptized (This triggers Grace and the Holy Spirit), then over the next few weeks, practice just like you say, and the Spirit will come down and Indwell you from the top of the head, destroying the ego and giving inner access to the soul, heart, God, etc.

reply to post by dominicus


So you would also recommend to participate to an eastern orthodox liturgy + communion regularly, right?
Also they encourage the Jesus Prayer as spiritual exercise but usually not a silent meditation.

Originally posted by RobSch5
reply to post by dominicus

 

So you would also recommend to participate to an eastern orthodox liturgy + communion regularly, right?
Also they encourage the Jesus Prayer as spiritual exercise but usually not a silent meditation.

edit on 26-8-2013 by RobSch5 because: (no reason given)

Would I recommend it? That's a tough question. When I started my Path as a Christian, I would frequent various denominations, churches, Pastors, sometimes even go into a Catholic Church that has Beautiful architecture and just sit there and Be.

Once I got the Holy Spirit after baptism (I highly recommend a Baptism or reBaptism as this will activate the Holy Spirit), then it was put into my heart to spend more time Surrendering, Letting go, Meditating, and spending tons of Time going within, and less time in the Church, with people, reading the Bible.....because the whole Summary of what the NT teaches, was now a living experience in my heart, mind, and Soul.......

...then I started to see that many of the people who are running Mega Churches, who are Pastors, Priests, Theologians, etc ...themselves lack the Holy Spirit experience. So I would actually call them out on it and ask them if they experienced the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Ego death, and they turned into Vipers against me, like the Pharisees and Sadducees. I literally felt what Jesus must have felt when he was rejected by the leaders of the Churches and by his own Disciples.....

....so my Path took me to practice in Solitude, as a Hermit, Solo. The Path of Spiritual transformation in Christ, is very personal and is between you and God. However, I always had access to various Abbott's from Monasteries with any additional questions

Community, however, is and can also be a blessing. You just might find a place of liturgy and communion that is filled with, or has members that, are filled/indwelled with the Holy SPirit and that can easily rub off on you by being in their presence. However, that might only be found in Monasteries and small branches/churches scattered about.

I would Highly recommend liturgy/Communion, because during this process you are learning about Christ, thinking about God, letting go of the Ego for the sake of giving One's life toward Enlightenment/Union. However, this has to be tempered with your own personal private practice of Prayer, meditation, Unknowing, Letting go, Surrender, an asking God to send you the Holy Spirit. Evenually, after X amount of days/weeks/months of this kind of lifestyle, you will be saturated, like a sponge dipped in God, with the lessons, meanings, Love of Christ/God/Holy Spirit, and it will be in the personal practice when Grace will visit you and strip you of the Ego, open the heart where Bliss pours out, Divine Love of all Beings, you literally start to experience: "Not I, but Christ in Me."

However, also have due diligence and be observant of where you go for service and communion. Some places are ran by Church leaders who are unenlightened, lack the Holy Spirit, and themselves are stagnant Spiritually. You can see it in the eyes of a man if he has the Spirit, because he will lock eyes with you, he will be intense but loving, have a mystical authority, but also be submissive as a host and friend, you will be able to tell that you are looking into the eyes of a Soul who daily experiences the Infinite Transcendence. It's unmistakable.

The stagnant Spiritually dead folks, just kind of lazily go through the motions, or ask for more tithing, or are too busy to speak with you and give time to listen. You can tell a tree by its fruit

I would highly recommend you swing by some Monasteries and ask if they have a service for the public, become friends with the Abbott who is in charge of the Monks, form a friendship, and ask him about the direct experiences and that you would like to share in these things and feel drawn to them.

The Monks call them "The Divine Mysteries of God revealed in you." He will tell you the same thing I told you; Meditate, pray, read the Desert Fathers, The mystics, go within, and make Union/Enlightenment number one in your life, and it will happen to you in due time.

The fact that you are already drawn to it, means that there is memory in your soul that you were made by God, are a spark of God, and feel drawn to return home. But the ego will tempt you away from doing so. It will say: "Forget Union, service, Monks, communion, meditation. Instead spend time searching for more "things", distractions, porn, money, girls, wealth, illegal substances, sex, video games, hobbies..."

The Buddhist monks call it, the 10,000 things. Or 10,000 distractions that tempt the ego away from uncovering the Enlightenment that is already within you. It's in the heart:

I love the way you integrate insights of different spiritual paths. Unfortunately it is also a way, many people could feel offended with. Just the idea Atman equals Brahman, which underlies Advaita and in a way Buddhism, may seem very offensive to many christians. I would even claim spiritually highly evolved people within christianity who had Unity experiences would reject this idea because of dogma, misunderstanding or just defense of the own tradition. The orthodox church also focuses strongly on its own tradition, Desert Fathers, Pilokalia, so I can imagine they would not recommend catholic mysticism of "The Cloud of Unknowing" or "Ascent of Mont Carmel" event if they are of the same substance. But i'm not sure about that.

Originally posted by RobSch5
I love the way you integrate insights of different spiritual paths. Unfortunately it is also a way, many people could feel offended with. Just the idea Atman equals Brahman, which underlies Advaita and in a way Buddhism, may seem very offensive to many christians. I would even claim spiritually highly evolved people within christianity who had Unity experiences would reject this idea because of dogma, misunderstanding or just defense of the own tradition. The orthodox church also focuses strongly on its own tradition, Desert Fathers, Pilokalia, so I can imagine they would not recommend catholic mysticism of "The Cloud of Unknowing" or "Ascent of Mont Carmel" event if they are of the same substance. But i'm not sure about that.

The word "Tree" is said differently in every language, yet the tree itself, is still what it is on a universal level regardless what anyone thinks or says about.

So too with elements of Spirituality. If each human Beings has a Soul, then every Path will have various insights into the nature of "Soul" and how to access this part of yourself.

The need to divide, label, bring division into the picture is what the Ego does. The Heart/Soul does not look at differences in dogmas and divisions, but instead sees every being as a Soul living within the One. Just like Christ forgave his crucifiers, he was on a transcendent view of reality, seeing that a soul is tricked by the ego and programming of this world.

Christ transcended all dogma, religion, labels, divisions.......and the infrastructure in place that Crucified him, eventually became a part of his teachings and the churches that are built in his name.

On top of that, he taught perennial philosophy. To say: "The kingdom of heaven is within you, or blessed be the pure of heart, for they shall see God." Those are Timeless Universalities that do not belong to Religion, Dogma, Church, and are Timelessly applicable to any individual.

Existence itself is prior to what you think of it. Science has found that in every individual, there is a delay from actual reality, to what we process it as. Reality itself, therefore, is naked and without thought. Whatever you think reality is, its not.

Here's another interesting tidbit. Christ saying the kingdom of heaven is within you. If you go within and start exploring where is soul, where do the impulses of the body come from, what is the source of these thoughts that urge me to sin, and so on, you're going to find very specific answers, ones that were found byothers who have traversed the inner depths.

So let's say as a "Christian", you find the source of thought to be a specific place in the body, and you google this newfound bit of discovery that you found by yourself. Well guess what? Your going to find that same exact discovery mentioned i Buddhism, Advaita, various Hindu philosophies, Neo-Platonic philosophy, and general Mysticism.

Cause we all of eyes, ears, nose, mind, ego, soul. Even an Atheist can go within and eventually, with due diligence, will find that he is actually a Soul and it will destroy his Atheism.

The reason I am a Christian Mystic, besides ths path being the way that the majority of my Awakenings happened, is that it is a very easy path because Grace does most of the work. Ally you do is learn, pray, Love, surrender, let go. Very simple.

On the other hand, Ive had one of my most Profound insights happen to me after being introduced to Zen Koans. The first one I ever read, wrestled with it for 15- 20 minutes, shifted from ego to observer of ego, then instantly dropped into the heart and experienced being One with all there is. FROM A ZEN KOAN!!!!!????

What was the koan?
" just like that thought of a rock, is not the same as an actual physical rock; so you too, who you think you are, is not who you are."

That koan is perennial. It is logic and reason. It does not belong to any religion. Yet if you crack the above puzzle, it is enough for you to directly experience the Source of your Soul!!!!! Though you'll never be the same again!!!!

So its not all cut and dry among lines of division and separation. Many Lines are Crossed and God is One with all, something the Bible covers many times, confirmed by the desert fathers, mystics, hermits,etc.

By the way, the cloud of unknowing doesn't belong to Catholics. Look up neti neti or Negative theology, and you'll find that Unknowing can be found universally in various paths, religions, theologies

reply to post by dominicus

Well, Christianity is finally based on the belief that Christ died on the cross for the sins of all who accept him follow him, and on his resurrection.
This is something no mystic can experience, it is something he as a Christian just has to believe and this belief bounds him in a way mystics of other traditions are not bound. It limits the pure unknowing.

Have you heard of Shaktipat in eastern religions?