Extraterrestrial hypothesis vs Jacques Vallee

reply to post by Erno86


I am not fan of the idea of dimensions but it is possible, not really in terms of actual different worlds but rather - changing the matter, making it more light, more transparent, easy to carry or move, if a spaceship's matter is changed to be able to do that - I am talking about ways of travel that we may not even be aware exists.

I had a dream for a short time, I don't usually have such dreams but since I woke up with a headache... In this dream a grey alien was holding some item and transformed it into another object, somehow the object dematerialized and then changed shape and then appeared as some new object. I am not fan of such ideas but heck, this may be something to do with how matter is made.

This dream gave me an idea of using highly advanced form of changing matter and that does not mean changing dimension, this looks to me more possible than talking about other worlds or dimensions.

Originally posted by Erno86
reply to post by greyer

 

It would be a letdown for me to know that the otherworlders that visit our planet, are not bipedal humanoids from another planet. It's the same cop-out that CIA spook J. Allen Hynek used by agreeing with Vallee's interdimensional space alien hypothesis

Your information on Hynek depends on what year the information is from, after 1981 J. Allen Hynek had changed and started reaching out to the public looking at the UFO 'problem' as it was back then from a completely astronomical viewpoint.

I like bright nuts an bolts lighted starships....
Perhaps I'm wrong...but too believe that otherworlders travel here via another dimension --- is to believe that these otherworlders are so far advanced ---- that our fellow Earthlings --- will probably never breakthrough into other dimensions, in the forseeable future. Thats why I prefer to stick with the superluminal starship theory. At least...we might have a chance to achieve a breakthrough in that technological realm in the near future.

Cheers,

Erno86

It is nice to speculate but we just have to go by the facts. Even NASA studied UFO abductions. The facts are that everything involving this UFO world is called high-strangeness. In every case you are stumped without being able to ever imagine who was behind it, like an archaeologist looking at Pumapunku forcing himself to believe that it is 1,000s of years old and not much more, all we are left with is evidence but no one to be held accountable. Like imagining the Bermuda Triangle if an plane could vanish in thin air.

The word dimension is being used but cannot be mistaken for multiple dimensions, especially multiverses but more like multiple black holes. In fact dimension is not the right word at all but it has to do with the law of vibration. All matter on earth vibrates at a certain frequency and the aliens along with their matter vibrate at a different frequency from a whole other part of space with law of physics that do not attribute to our part of the universe. Such a frequency that even metals can think for themselves so completely off the wall for us to think about here, just an an old FBI memo released on the internet.

The bodies of the visitors, and the craft also, automatically materialize on entering the vibratory rate of our dense matter.

It is correct when most people say that it is all technology and not magic. Though aliens have strong ESP and are able to view the subconscious of individuals from different parts of the world by tracking them for certain personality traits they are looking for, manifest themselves in our sea of biophysical fields to intercept our collective unconsciousness, going through walls to abduct people and floating them up to ships is a technology that creates a worm hole, and in some cases changes the frequency of matter which are true displays of magic to us but our earth scientists are well aware these things can be achieved in physics.

n RMCT (pulsed ELF-audiogram-modulated interference-maser synthetic-telepathy), the ELF emissions in the target’s brain may interfere constructively or destructively with the ELF modulations carried by the maser as it pulses up and down the frequency range window of subvocalised thought.

Elerium, also known as Element 115, is a strange element used in the First Alien War as a power source for alien technology. It is an incredibly rare substance that does not occur naturally on Earth

reply to post by Mr Mask


I've read his books. One of the many problems with Mr Vallée's theorem is that it's based on select cases referred to as "high strangeness" events. Some of the examples used in his books might be interpreted in a number of ways, including an interdimensional aspect. But in my own study of many of these same cases, conventional, physical and perceptional elements also play into the mix. One interesting fact that puts quite a twist in Vallée's premise was the influences of his close colleague, physicist, Dr Allan Hynek. As you likely know, Hynek was privy to the highest classified evidence of UFO studies by the Air Force. Vallée and Hynek actually collaborated quietly for years while Vallée's theory was being developed. Hynek's own ideas about UFOs and the entities parallel those of Vallée, who was apprently quite influenced by Hynek's correlations from Blue Book. Based on my research into Vallée's background and his relationship with Hynek, I would tend to view his work more as a morass or entanglement of the information contimuum, rather than a sincere effort to classify the phenomenon. There are also what I would call flaws in his approach to correlations between what he claims are high strangeness events, which as mentioned, may be erroneous assumptions based on perceptional interpretations, which he links to a non-physical phenomenon, and classic UFO (nuts and bolts) type events (which leave traces of measureable evidence...i.e. pod marks, radiation, glass beads), which in his later work is also made to fit into the EDH through an insinuation that non-physical beings can produce physical objects or objects that appear to be physical in nature. In the late 1940s, when Vallée began interviewing french farmers about their contacts with small aliens, he initially beleived that they were chance meetings with some exosolar species simular to humans. However, since the time that he began collaborating with Hynek, his focus and thus his writting change radically. In Hynek's written reports to the Air Force, he basically said some of the same things that Vallée has been saying in his books for decades. Hynek could not discuss his work in Blue Book, but he did discuss his "personal" beleif (with Vallée) that UFOs and aliens were not of extraterrestrial, but of Earthly origin, albeit from an alternate, parallel world from which they evolved.

Something that may correlate with this topic relates to a book I just read. A newly authored ebook by a Finlandean (Matti Aladin) who claims to have had contact with Nordics for thirteen years. He describes interactions with liasons and regular contacts quite vividly, but never actually makes physical contact with them. He describes his communications as visceral experiences which he claims comes through a computer generated mind-theatre with the aid of a braim augmentation which ustilizes physical properties on a sub-matter level to transcieve the brain signal. When I first opened the book, I expected something totally different. Nevertheless, I have been able to see a number of correlations with the Vallée theorem, even though i do favor the physical aspects of exterrestrialism. According to Aladin, they are physical but use only technology to communicate with human subjects telepathically, due to the risks involved in physical contacts. It all very interesting and thanks for bringing up this topic of discussion. Its been rather enjoyable to see that people still think.

First, great thread, especially those who entertain other explanations for the 'high strangeness' (alleged) events.

First, one should doubt that which they have not witnessed themselves
Human perception is easily fooled there are a plethora of examples on the net
What can -possibly- be explained by prosaic means does not -totally- rule out a supernatural or non-terrestrial event but a prosaic event is several orders of magnitude more likely than an explanation involving FTL travel, non-terrestrial biological entities coming here in person, in secret, using expensive stealthy means, while shining bright lights (d'oh) and stealing ungulates, abducting hominids and putting them right back into their same beds, dressing them with their clothes (inside out).

We are products of the TV/Movie influences. Anyone investigating this 'phenomenon' should try to start with a 'clean plate'. Look at the (actual) evidence.

We are also fantasy prone - who doesn't love to escape reality. But be wary of the urge to apply this to a SCIENTIFIC inquiry.

Anyway, the biggest problem is hoaxers. They have so muddied the waters as to make this type inquiry impossible.

I used to believe in aliens, thought that's what all the supernatural sightings were in the Bible. Then I realized who wrote the Bible, and twasn't God. Aliens are a crock IMO, designed by the gov't to throw us off the technology that they have.

I mean use your brains, aliens so smart to travel interstellar distances, but can't seem to get the staying out of sight thing right. Yeah, right.

First of all - great video mr Mask! looking forward to see more of that stuff here

I believe that earth are visited by ETs because i had my own sighting of an intelligent contolled object 18 years ago, witnessed by several friends at the time. I dont do drugs, only rarely drink alcohol and im not affected by any kind of medication. I also think i have a good common sense and judgement, but i also have a critical point of wiev to supernatural phenomenons so im not easy convinced to think strange things are more than natural phenomenons
At the time of my sighting i quickly rejected what i saw, i dont know why, but it kept comming back to me over the years and now i have researched this strange UFO subject for over 5 years on an almost an dayli basis.
This is just a short background story telling why im a believer.
I believe that ETs are a natural part of the world.

I also think that the issiues on what consciousness really is, and multi dimensions are way above the human intelligence to comprehend and should be labelled as science fun
Fun to debate, every theory is almost as good as the next one, buttomline is that human intelligence just excatly are enough for us to become technologic, in fact it would be really scary to face a supernatural ET intelligence. Are we the antz in the antz vs human theory?
Picture the ant say " i dont believe in humans, its way of!!"

Now please look at this Large scale structure of the universe simulation made by the work of NASA, and say to yourself: I dont belive there anything intelligent out there.
www.youtube.com...

I can not help myself commenting on this one

Originally posted by CircleOfDust
I mean use your brains, aliens so smart to travel interstellar distances, but can't seem to get the staying out of sight thing right. Yeah, right.

So if we can see aliens they dont exist?

Kinda lost track of the original post, so over and out from here
have a nice day out there

reply to post by greyer


I don't mind if people want to call the UFO enigma "high-strangeness," but rather instead... it's just a form of reality for me, due to my eyewitness encounter of an alien starship one night, in November of 1976; approx. 40 miles west of Washington D.C.

But how can the UFO enigma be called "high-strangeness," when high-strangeness is probably a non-sequitur to the alien pilot's that fly these interstellar starships? With the fact in the possibility of interstellar travel, as to the reality that these aliens --- by showing there prowess, with the high probability of superluminal capable starships to us --- will make me disagree with most of Jacques Vallee's moribund assumptions.

I disagree with Vallee's assumption that "no experiment can distinquish between phenomena manifested by visiting interstellar [arbitrarily advanced] ETI and intelligent entities that may exist near Earth within a parallel universe or in different dimensions, or who are [terrestrial] time travelers."

I call Vallee's theory that I just quoted --- high-strangeness --- because it really does not make any sense to me... what with the near probable fact: that no alien civilizations live on habitable planets within any close vicinity to us; and the high probability that no parallel universes or extra dimensions exist. These theory's by Vallee and other scientist's who agree with him, are all theory's based on speculation and show no proof in reality; such as in the physical reality of our own universe.

Thanks,

Erno

reply to post by ImpactoR


HI ImpactoR,

Your experience reminds me an awful lot of Terrence McKenna's Tykes. It's not the sort of stuff that is really acceptable at ATS, and I am fine with that, but your short description of your dream reminded me so much of them, that I could not resist.

You can Google "Terrence McKenna tykes" and I am sure that you will find your way to the story if you like.

Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed your post.

Originally posted by g2v12
As you likely know, Hynek was privy to the highest classified evidence of UFO studies by the Air Force.

Just the first in a long line of misstatements inherent in your post. Not to say that some of your thoughts are without merit, however, because I think they are.

Back to the point though: Can you show that Hynek was, "privy to the highest classified evidence of UFO studies by the Air Force?"

I seriously doubt that he was "let in" on anything. He was, however, apparently hired for the specific job of debunking before wising up and charting his own course.

Btw, the following is an article I found fairly interesting in regards "high-strangeness" as it relates to ufology:

Curiouser and Curiouser: ‘High Strangeness’ UFO Encounters. 
Gareth J. Medway

This is a thread I started awhile back. I post it because I am truly interested in my fellow members opinions and hope some of y'all--that haven't already--will weigh in:

Survey: How Many Have Switched from Extraterrestrial Hypothesis to Interdimensional?

reply to post by The GUT

I seriously doubt that he was "let in" on anything. He was, however, apparently hired for the specific job of debunking before wising up and charting his own course.

This is a really important point, and I have been devoting a lot of thought to it.

Who was 'let in' on anything? I only have my gut to go on, and I would say that Green and Alexander, for sure, but I have never believed that Jacques has been an insider. But I know for sure that he is the most knowledgeable outsider.

Vallee has been had before too.

Originally posted by The GUT
Can you show that Hynek was, "privy to the highest classified evidence of UFO studies by the Air Force?"

I seriously doubt that he was "let in" on anything. He was, however, apparently hired for the specific job of debunking before wising up and charting his own course.

Hey The GUT, we have testimony from Dr. Paul Bennewitz that Dr. Hynek was in the know. These are notes from Dr. Bennewitz who was mentioned as being very credible back then although he had some very much alternative thoughts and investigations. Apparently he had spent some time with Dr. Hynek and determined that he was a government cover-up after talking with him about abductions.

Great information presented in a unique format and very well written. One of the best posts I've seen in this forum.

You should spend less time on MW and create more thought provoking analyses in this style.

Maybe there is a market for 'sciencey rap'?

Valle gives a strong argument using Occam's razor on the evidence. There are a numbers of weak points, such as asserting UFOs suddenly appearing means they aren't spacecraft. But points such as entities having a socially acceptable appearance for the time are very strong.

This points towards 'projections' from the creators of the simulation we live in, 'projections' from 'locals' or 'projections' from aliens to me. Or just as likely, caused by a minor fault in the brain.

PS It would be nice if you posted the lyrics - 'what's with all the anal probes'

To me, though fascinating, the phenomenon of 'things flying around in the sky', of daylight discs, of night time lights', it's a BIG JUMP to

"It's non-terrestrial beings (flying in crafts, no less), trying to grab our livestock, or our rural residents."

We don't know what it is. We can't really distinguish between aircraft, or ultralight hobby craft, or Chinese lanterns, or outright hoaxes.

Jacques Vallee calls it a 'Jealous Phenomenon' - i.e. it only appears to some people, some of the time and we can't get a handle on it. The UFO craft seems to change to satisfy the expectations of the viewer, from balloon like to saucer like to Starwars and Independence Day triangles (the Belgian Triangle recently exposed as a hoax).

People are just (naturally) uneasy with uncertainty and they seem to have a need to put a label on something.

Ask yourselves how many people who report having nightly visits and abductions by non-terrestrial beings and with all the methods of detection, from normal footprints to electronic monitoring to throwing a net over them, we've never been able to get a single shred of proof. Not even a alien candy bar wrapper. Why?

And to confound it all we have deliberate hoaxers, damn their eyes. We'll never know the truth, I fear.

Originally posted by Maverick7

Jacques Vallee calls it a 'Jealous Phenomenon' - i.e. it only appears to some people, some of the time and we can't get a handle on it. The UFO craft seems to change to satisfy the expectations of the viewer, from balloon like to saucer like to Starwars and Independence Day triangles (the Belgian Triangle recently exposed as a hoax).

The "famous photograph" of the triangle was exposed as a hoax. But I believe that there were many independent witnesses who saw the triangle or "triangles". I always thought the photograph looked very suspect - too blurry, too close.

One of the problems with UFO study is its so hard to come to any conclusions since so much is reliant on poorly recalled witness observation, hoaxes, and fabrications. The lack of hard physical evidence makes it almost impossible to make any generalizations.

Originally posted by bluestreak53

Originally posted by Maverick7
... (the Belgian Triangle recently exposed as a hoax).

The "famous photograph" of the triangle was exposed as a hoax. But I believe that there were many independent witnesses who saw the triangle or "triangles". I always thought the photograph looked very suspect - too blurry, too close.

You are correct, and that is certainly a more precise take, which I find appealing. There are a lot of sightings which look like 'the triangle'. Some might be optical illusions, some might be DARPA platforms or test beds (cf. the Stealth Blimp). I don't know why they'd fly them over populated areas, though. Others might be attempts to get some reactions to holographic technology. It's just too much chaff, and obscures any 'non-terrestrial' explanation.

One of the problems with UFO study is its so hard to come to any conclusions since so much is reliant on poorly recalled witness observation, hoaxes, and fabrications. The lack of hard physical evidence makes it almost impossible to make any generalizations.

There is some 'trace' that might be looked at, but what's also difficult is finding any evidence (not proof, just something non-terrestrial) that it's 'from elsewhere'. How do you do that?

People are reluctant to send in anything they find to just any lab for fear the sample will disappear. You're left with divots and crop circle type 'evidence' and of course the fairly unreliable witness testimony, though highly strange and compelling, doesn't really get us anywhere. Even multiple witness sightings need to be accompanied by something, radar, what have you to really nail some event down and rule out hoaxing and illusions.

Good comment.

"Jacques Valleee doesn't know" Amen

You summed it up well. That means any theory is plausible.

Originally posted by Maverick7
There is some 'trace' that might be looked at, but what's also difficult is finding any evidence (not proof, just something non-terrestrial) that it's 'from elsewhere'. How do you do that?

Yeah, how do we do that? Seeing as how the most astounding of the reported features of ufos revolve around their immunity to gravity and the seeming defiance of the physics of mass...the fact that we have so few cases of physical evidence might lend even more weight to the theory that we are dealing with something interdimensional so to speak.

Say they were intelligent lifeforms residing somewhere in the elctromagnetic spectrum, like a plasma of some sort, then "physical" evidence would be hard to come by. Radar might pick them up in some instances, but landing gear impressions, say, would be a moot point.

Ok I will just cut it straight:

All these 'Alternative' theories are nothing more than disinformation and a way to distract from more plausible things.

Demons, dimensional beings that do not use technology or plasma beings is pure mish-mash created with the purpose to distract. All they do is make the waters even muddier.

Would such a big coverup exist to say that there are some animals, creatures in the state of plasma? So what, it's not like one can use them somehow. And making people think there are aliens just to cover some plasma beings is completely non-sense. Same for demons...

The only REASONABLE explanation provided that some of the things are not human, is that they are extraterrestrial - whether existing in another dimension or not - point is - they DO USE TECHNOLOGY. All that coverup would only exist in an attempt to get this technology, it has nothing like demons or 'plasma beings'.

Look around you, the clues are heavily leaning to that, because any other claims are disinformation and make no sense for cover up at all! ...

reply to post by ImpactoR

I'll cut it even straighter: You don't come across as having studied the phenomenon much, Impactor. You never seem to have much in the way of citations and just seem to say the same things over & over again. I like you in that "eccentric old uncle" kind of way, but it becomes ever harder to listen to the same paragraph or two.

Most folk here are giving reasons for why they lean the way they do. You obviously have a sharp mind, but don't seem to be using it too much as relates intelligent discussion & debate.