I Converted A Catholic To Atheism

reply to post by logical7

what if its your deistic belief that is making you think that way??
How can you be sure if your own belief limits a certain possibility that you would have otherwise explored?

I'm not speaking for Wildtimes here, but for my self. I'm fairly blown away at the moment by formless spiritual fundamentalist new agers who have every bit as much capacity to despise people as any other fundamentalist group .

In my book, they certainly don't have the "the Answers". I'm a bit nauseous at the moment. I'll probably have to do a serious re-think and try to recover some sense of ethics my own self.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by logical7

what if its your deistic belief that is making you think that way??
How can you be sure if your own belief limits a certain possibility that you would have otherwise explored?

I'm not speaking for Wildtimes here, but for my self. I'm fairly blown away at the moment by formless spiritual fundamentalist new agers who have every bit as much capacity to despise people as any other fundamentalist group .

In my book, they certainly don't have the "the Answers". I'm a bit nauseous at the moment. I'll probably have to do a serious re-think and try to recover some sense of ethics my own self.

edit on 24-6-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)

i do not completely understand what you mean but i do agree that formless spiritual new agers criticise religions while having made up their own when objectively they could be equally wrong and don't have a right to feel superior and despise others.
Spirituality is a human need. Spirituality should not conflict with reasoning and intellect. People in an urgue to fill the void let reasoning go to hell and blindly follow someone's ideas.
Other's make reasoning their God and let spirituality go completely or become a part time hobby.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

You do not read mine, as you do not respond to them (many posts) or find intrinsic value to them.

I didn't think I needed to reply to them. What was there to reply to? I can't tell what you're talking about half the time. So I just see if there's anything informative and if there isn't, I move on. If you're upset about that, then you seriously need to work on your communication skills. I'm not saying this to be mean; I'm explaining my lack of feedback regarding your posts. Sorry.

I do read yours, but there is no grace or joy in your words. You seem more a pollutant than an enlightener more of an entertainer and I can sense it from here; sadness, outrage and betrayal.

Huh? Hoo boy, you have seriously misread me. I don't get it. I've stated myself quite thoroughly and clearly enough times to get the point across. What strikes you as such "sadness, outrage, and betrayal"?

reply to post by wildtimes

This feeds the system of deception - the charismatic speaker feels "good", and so do the listeners, because they feel they have finally found SOMEONE who can tell them the Truth. It breeds laziness, and gives over our own powers of intellect, imagination, and investigation to another.

You know, I think it goes deeper than that. See, gods never used to be an end-all sort of concept. They didn't go all out. Odin wasn't omnipotent. Quetzcoatl wasn't omnipresent. And Circe sure as hell wasn't omniscient. When did gods become such cowards? When did they become the Superman of religion? And even he has a weakness - a very potent one. But our gods can't have anything like that? It seems unnatural. And it is, for the reasons I'm about to explain.

Mankind has a love for, a fascination with, technology. Every code of conduct, both personal and professional, every aversion to vulnerability and ugliness, every surge to always be plugged into the latest wave of mental interface, constantly reinforcing the now-mind, the state of receiving information unfiltered and raw. Our need for shiny and polished, our craving for stimuli, it's all come together in what may become a war for our minds. We are being being mechanized. Imagine when body parts become factory model. Imagine when they start breeding the perfect soldier, by courtesy of genetic manipulation. What will happen when we begin to become organic machines, or perhaps even a different species entirely? Whether it be genetic superiority or a cybernetic implant, or even a robotic limb that wouldn't look out of place in a Terminator movie, we will be more divided than ever. Could it happen? Hell yes. Technology could become the new religion, becoming a tool rather than a motivator, a tool for transcending our limits...but I think we've already demonstrated our coexistentially-challenged nature numerous times. Life will become too easy, none of its values meaningful anymore, and we'll forget the future we were trying to create. And by "we", I mean either the people or the government. Would it happen? I don't know. This is what I see happening, with the past suggesting a pattern the future is easily prepared to follow.

Because it won't be just the technology. We'll become mechanized physically and psychologically.

reply to post by logical7

When you say nobody has "the answers" its your belief talking. How can you then judge others who are exploring all options unlike you??

What? I am exploring all options. YOU are one of the people claiming you have the Truth.
I said NONE OF US has all of the answers.

Who am I judging?

reply to post by pthena


Oh are you talking about BornofSin's thread? It's really interesting. The thread.
I wondered why you left.

I'm no "spiritual giant", but what some of those guys were saying does make sense to me, as an independent free-thinker and a very creative person. I just don't agree to hop into any boxes. I'm building my own.
I guess some people think that makes me a "demon" or some such nonsense.

reply to post by logical7

i do not completely understand what you mean

I don't either.

Spirituality should not conflict with reasoning and intellect. People in an urgue to fill the void let reasoning go to hell and blindly follow someone's ideas.

I find it much easier to agree with atheists and agnostics and deists who have a clear understanding of words and history and even comparative religion.

What I've seen recently seems like a band of musicians each playing their own tune with zero melody or harmony just a cacophony of noise, like Pentecostals speaking in tongues. It doesn't matter what words they use, or what they say, they're just sure that they're more spiritual than other people.

Therefore, they despise anyone with a structured understanding of history or philosophy or religion. The frightening thing to me is, that what appalls me the most is that I resemble them in many ways, as if I'm seeing the logical outcome of some of my own approach to reality. Like taking a trip with "the ghost of Christmas yet to come" (Dickens allusion).

So I definitely need to re-evaluate what it is I value most.

reply to post by wildtimes

What? I am exploring all options.

so you are open to the possibility that God sends revealation and there can be afterlife and Heaven & Hell?

I said NONE OF US has all of the
answers.

you cannot say that. Maybe someone has, you just don't like them. How do you take that possibility and deal with it?
What if someone has ANSWERS but you reject them as they don't appeal to your "taste"?? How do you take out this bias from you genuine search for Answers?

Who am I judging?

you are judging people who choose to listen to a person/religion claiming to have answers.

reply to post by wildtimes

I wondered why you left.

See my response to Logical7

Unity_99 was the only person I completely agreed with. Much of that pap that was spewing from "the enlightened ones" was sheerest ego tripping in my opinion, and hypocritical to boot.

reply to post by pthena

Yes, I agree with Unity 99 very much on many things.

reply to post by logical7

you are judging people who choose to listen to a person/religion claiming to have answers.

OMG, logical7! Really? Did you have one of those memory-erasure episodes overnight? And we were doing so well!!

I do not believe that we CAN know the total Truth. It is beyond our senses and limited intellect to grasp entirely. That is what survivors of NDEs realize - once they've tasted the 'afterlife' and come back "born anew" they are forever changed, because they got a glimpse - just a GLIMPSE - of the real, actual Truth. I think people do, with major effort and focus, occasionally get a GLIMPSE of it - in Buddhism it's called the moments of fleeting "enlightenment." I too, have had those moments -
and they ARE fleeting -
they are quite profound, but always fade - because our job here is to EXPERIENCE everything the world has to offer us as incarnate spirits - thus we aren't meant to "remember" our pre-life or between-life soul exercises and counseling sessions. If we remembered, we would go insane being here and not learn anything. So the veil is lowered.

No, I do not believe in "revelations" except for people who have had NDEs, and THEY agree with Buddhism's teaching that we 'can't know it' or 'describe it' - they find it nearly impossible to articulate the experience because it superceded "normal" sensory experiences.

I DO believe in an afterlife, I do NOT believe in "Heaven" and "Hell." I believe we are all connected by threads of spirit to the Whole, and once we've achieved spiritual maturity by independent work in our UNIQUE lives, we are reunited with the ethereal One-ness of which we are all a part.

Really, you should have gotten that by now, if you are paying me any attention at all.

I'm not "judging" anyone who is honestly trying - I am simply saying that it's a cop-out to accept someone else's words. It's for people with limited intellect and creative thinking or philosophical ability.

reply to post by logical7


I have explored MANY different religious traditions and ideas, and I'm NOT DONE YET.
NONE of them seem to me to have ALL of the answers - Buddhism is probably the closest, though.

reply to post by pthena

So I definitely need to re-evaluate what it is I value most.

what is that?

I see atheists, agnostics and even deists as people who are one step closer to the true spirituality as they have rejected much of what was not making sense.
They obviously cannot claim to be better than others who follow any religion.
People belonging to religions can have the answers and that true spirituality that everyone is seeking.

I find it ridiculous when someone says "all religions are man-made" with complete certainty! I am not promoting my religion, i am just pointing out that its conflicting if the same person says "we don't know everything"

reply to post by AfterInfinity

You seem to think I was inviting you to leave.

My, my! Aren't you THE perceptive ONE!

I wasn't.

Perhaps not, but I DO have MY doubts.

I wouldn't dream of asking you to do anything.

I wouldn't know about your dreams, but you have, indeed, suggested that I leave, on several occasions, in the past.

It would be pointless.

You are correct! I have proven that to be true!

See ya,
Milt

reply to post by logical7

I find it ridiculous when someone says "all religions are man-made" with complete certainty!

We "say that" because every single religious text was written down BY MEN. And men interpret them however they want to. The answers lie within us - but we have to figure out how to get to the Truth ourselves, because EACH OF US has a completely unique "life experience."

It's really quite simple.

reply to post by wildtimes

I'm not "judging" anyone who is honestly trying - I am simply saying that it's a cop-out to accept someone else's words. It's for people with limited intellect and creative thinking or philosophical ability.

can you see the "judging" yet??
Anyone who believes a religion is of "limted intellect" and conversely as you don't, it makes you "better"/"superior"??
Really?

Btw,
people who have NDEs see what they expect to see, its not objective, its very subjective and it just confirms that death is not the end but what is beyond death cannot be taken as "facts" from those experiences.

You just repeated you belief to me which i very well know and it would be good if you stop assuming that i can't remember. I am not interested in your belief, it has gaping flaws in it and its just your faith that you still continue to believe in it.

reply to post by logical7

can you see the "judging" yet??

Nope.

Anyone who believes a religion is of "limted intellect" and conversely as you don't, it makes you "better"/"superior"?? Really?

I NEVER SAID THAT. I said that ALL RELIGIONS leave something to be desired. If people want to accept a pre-packaged religion, that's their choice and decision based on their unique experience and needs. It doesn't work for me. That's not a judgment, it's a decision based on my own life experience, intellect, background, personality, and character.

Their decisiions, by definition, aren't "mine". Is it okay with you if I know my own mind and needs and experience?

Btw,
people who have NDEs see what they expect to see, its not objective, its very subjective and it just confirms that death is not the end but what is beyond death cannot be taken as "facts" from those experiences.

Many of them see things they NEVER expected to see.

You just repeated you belief to me which i very well know and it would be good if you stop assuming that i can't remember.

Then whey do you keep badgering me to explain it????

I am not interested in your belief, it has gaping flaws in it and its just your faith that you still continue to believe in it.

Right back at you, bro. Right back at you.

reply to post by logical7


You know what? Dammit, logical7, why can't you be consistent?? We are conversing on several different threads - in one you tell me you agree with me and that I'm a good person, and in another you accuse me of being judgmental and claiming I am "superior"?

Pick a stance, and stick with it across the board (pun intended). You think I'm full of crap and wrong? Or you think I have sound ideas and morals? Which is it???? Does it just depend on which shirt you're wearing on any given day?
What mood you're in?

Or do you just want me to repeat myself over and over for the benefit of others who you hope to 'teach' Islam to, so THEY will reject me?

I don't know what game this is you're playing, but I'm tired of you changing the rules that you just make up as you go along.

reply to post by pthena


And by those standards, how do you feel about the topic material?

reply to post by logical7

what is that?

What I value most, I think it may be empathy. The ability to see myself in some one else, even if my circumstance is not the other person's circumstance.

And the corollary would be to provide what's possible to provide. And knowing the limit of my own ability to empathize. Sometimes I am not the one who has what's needed. It helps to at least know of some one to refer the needy to.

I see atheists, agnostics and even deists as people who are one step closer to the true spirituality as they have rejected much of what was not making sense.

That's because they are firmly grounded in what is obvious. We are here in this World. Things are necessary for survival. No hypothetical higher anything detracts from that.

I find it ridiculous when someone says "all religions are man-made" with complete certainty! I am not promoting my religion, i am just pointing out that its conflicting if the same person says "we don't know everything"

I don't know about any body else, but I certainly know that my religion is man-made, because I made it myself.

When looking at religions I'm also familiar with (Christianity - Judaism) I can actually see the scaffolding and rigging and duct tape and baling wire behind the curtain holding them up. It's simple history and textual analysis that reveals these. No magic required.

Do I know everything? Absolutely not! But I do know that some religions(as personal, not purely ritualistic) tend to promote humanity, whereas others degrade. Two people can have the same creed, same holy book, same ritual, and yet be at different ends of the spectrum.