Lost Wisdom of the Ancients or failure on our part?

reply to post by SLAYER69

n the end we really haven't advanced all that much when it comes to conveying knowledge. Oh, sure, we use different materials and attempt to be a bit more sophisticated in our approach but in the end it's all about keeping it simple.

It may well be that the past civilization learned not to need things that destroy their home. People say things like why would they build with stone if they were "advanced". Well all the things we have pursued have been harmful and if long term vision is unsophisticated maybe that is what we are looking at.

You show insight, but you lack a bit of understanding.. And a few of your questions can be elaborated to the lenghts that only shows that we have NO understanding what-so-ever about earlier civilizations.

1.We are many, and have no need for saving our knowledge for the future. In the "old days" it was necessary to write down great knowledge to keep it. And one of the few methods of noting knowledge was by stone ingraving.

2. The knowledge that is the most important, we have forgotten. Living by the land, as simple as how to grow carrots from a carrot is no longer common knowledge.

3l Not contaminating the environment was easier when we weren`t 5 billion people. And the old knowledge has propelled civilization today to the point where this has become a reality. We WILL and have destroyed our earth. There is another thread right now about krill. And the truth is that the earth-oceans acidity levels are at a breaking point. The eart has been exhausted enough not to be able to feed the 8 billion people projected in 2050. Believe it or not, we need Monsanto GMO crops, OR, we need a catastrophe that eliminates a huge portion of the world population.

4. If you look into the knowledge about stars and planets held by the Mayhans, you`ll soon realize that they had knowledge you would never find without telescopes. So how did they get it? The only reasonable explanation is extra-terrestrial visitation.

5. The computer they had was great, but actually nothing more than an elaborate table.Our calculations precede their calculations by far..... do we need it, maybe not, but it drives technology - wich we need to inhabate other planets sooner or later.

6. The nasca lines and pyramids... why make them in an mathmatical and astronomic manner that can only be seen from the skies. Either our predecesors were stupid, or they were convaying information to some "gods" that were able to "fly". (and I know you don`t believe they were stupid)

have fun, great post!

br0ker

Originally posted by br0ker
You show insight, but you lack a bit of understanding.. And a few of your questions can be elaborated to the lenghts that only shows that we have NO understanding what-so-ever about earlier civilizations.

1.We are many, and have no need for saving our knowledge for the future. In the "old days" it was necessary to write down great knowledge to keep it. And one of the few methods of noting knowledge was by stone ingraving.

2. The knowledge that is the most important, we have forgotten. Living by the land, as simple as how to grow carrots from a carrot is no longer common knowledge.

3l Not contaminating the environment was easier when we weren`t 5 billion people. And the old knowledge has propelled civilization today to the point where this has become a reality. We WILL and have destroyed our earth. There is another thread right now about krill. And the truth is that the earth-oceans acidity levels are at a breaking point. The eart has been exhausted enough not to be able to feed the 8 billion people projected in 2050. Believe it or not, we need Monsanto GMO crops, OR, we need a catastrophe that eliminates a huge portion of the world population.

4. If you look into the knowledge about stars and planets held by the Mayhans, you`ll soon realize that they had knowledge you would never find without telescopes. So how did they get it? The only reasonable explanation is extra-terrestrial visitation.

5. The computer they had was great, but actually nothing more than an elaborate table.Our calculations precede their calculations by far..... do we need it, maybe not, but it drives technology - wich we need to inhabate other planets sooner or later.

6. The nasca lines and pyramids... why make them in an mathmatical and astronomic manner that can only be seen from the skies. Either our predecesors were stupid, or they were convaying information to some "gods" that were able to "fly". (and I know you don`t believe they were stupid)

have fun, great post!

br0ker

PS. sorry about a few spelling errors,, trying to get ahead of the spelling nazis right now...

Originally posted by Corruptedstructure
reply to post by Byrd

 

I thought someone figured out that the pyramids were some function of a power source. they are all over the world.

Nope.. and nope to the second, also. There's a lot of places where they don't exist, and they were built at a number of different times, from 2600 BC to 1400 AD. Generally a culture would go pyramid happy and then lose interest in them. They're expensive in terms of labor and materials.

As to "battery"/"Power source", as anyone who's worked with electricity and electrical storage can tell you, the design isn't feasible.

Originally posted by JayinAR
There is actually a lot of stuff that would last quite awhile if civilization was wiped out today. Though maybe not our IPads, but other stuff. Interstate I-40 here near where I live has an expanse of hundreds of miles of reinforced concrete slabs. That would last quite awhile. As would the excavated embankments running parallel. Underground bunkers, etc...

Using info from the TV show that portrayed a world without humans - our use of reinforced concrete will break down faster than just pure cement. Most reinforced concrete uses 'iron' rods that'll corrode and breakup the concrete.

Anything metal, will corrode in a given time. Newer plastics are made to break down in landfills. Recycling programs, when fully implemented, will reduce any sign of modern devices. Most books now are all going digital - to be stored on servers/devices that incorporate metal that will not last 1000years in any land field.

Once we all go 100% digital and 100% green, any calamity could render our way of life erased.

The big buildings that actually use brick will be reused to rebuild a new society. What will be left is our use of strip mining and other earth moving achievements. Any storage of seeds or whatnot will be pilfered within 100 years after any 'restart.'

Only thing that'll be left are things passed down verbally to our lineage - three generations down the road will make any talk of tech-times a myth & magical time - they won't be able to imagine a TV, internet, jets, space travel, etc.. They'll try and tell the tales in a way they could understand.. IMO - Just as things were passed on to us now.

Every year a discovery is made that pushes our current understanding of our timeline back further into our past. The start date keeps getting further away. That should be a sign that we have no idea of what really happened.

Edit: To answer the title - it is our failure. We failed in recognizing the signs left behind. We failed to realize the stories of old as mislabeled facts. We fail in the fact we are going to repeat whatever F up our ancestors.

Nothing worse than a conceited scientist rubbing his knowledge in other people's faces. It's real because he read it in a book at college, or he's a scientist and all his peers agree. I hope your student kid never gets so smug either way and recognizes his part in a bigger picture, high or low. It's total brainwashing to read in textbooks and reports from the author that we have advanced so much and we're at the top. That's a guess, it's full of mankind hubris to make people stop thinking about exceeding a status quo, and to make them stop believing that there is much more room for success in the future. I wonder why they even bother to mention it at all in their works.

Is the civilization still alive? Then it's not a failure. We're where the prophets of ancient predicted we would be, in the middle of a couple big kingdoms. Apparently it's supposed to go on for thousands of years, where we as a collective go up and then we go down, and the cycle repeats itself in this holographic experience called life.

It's not failure as long as we have our memories to compare ourselves to other civilizations. I have to say that this Sumerian push that they were great for all mankind in civilization, might not be the case. Hey, they were monarchs and owned people as slaves without negotiations. A kingdom, that's comprable to a western corporation these days, where you do as the boss says or else you're gone.

There is another big global way to see things coming, and transition is hard. Don't think that your computers are as great as you can figure. Hey look, the Sumerians had clay tablets, we have glass ones, what will the next big civilization carry? Actually, maybe we haven't been as golden as previous civilizations, that they could do with their minds and willpowers what we can't remember, probably due to genetic pollutants at the moment. We haven't failed, we are exactly where we are supposed to be for the enrichment of everybody involved in participation of earth.

Originally posted by LUXUS

Originally posted by Hanslune


Yep you can cut granite with SAND that is driven or directed by a copper or bronze saw - you can even use wood but it tends to wear out real quick - yep and work was done with diorite hammers. Sure you can you just do it with small hammers, sand and lots of elbow grease.

Again if you really, firmly believe its impossible offer up that prize - what do you have to lose?

Why don't you get a piece of granite and try rubbing it with sand for a few hours ( I have) let us know what happens? Yep it might take many months or even years but it works, try it and report back.

I am aware how glass lenses or telescope mirrors can be made by lapping with sand to shape the glass however that method cannot be used to produce hieroglyphs in granite, particularly hieroglyph with straight lines and acute angles. To produce fine detail would take a fine pointed tool, a fine pointed tool made from stone simply would not work.

...and you base this on what ?

here is some experimental archaeology you can deny




I suggest you obtain or borrow the book below and read it

Experiments in Egyptian Archaeology: Stoneworking Technology in Ancient Egypt
By Denys A. Stocks ISBN-13: 978-0415588942

Turkey had underground cities that date to 800BC if not older:

en.wikipedia.org...

A bit different... The Roman Baths were originally on the surface.

But back to the point of 'resetting'. I've always found it very strange that we know nothing of our direct history beyond about 12,000 years ago. I just don't believe that there were not civilisations long before that... People were basically the same 500,000 years ago. Did we nearly wipe ourselves out and have to start again?

Originally posted by theabsolutetruth
I think it is important we keep training the kids in skills, some are sort of taught in school, like weaving, felting, sewing etc but in a minimal way, ie for a day or two, I would say teach them more skills.

I think because society isn't the same as it was, I learned things in the 70's and 80's that kids these days don't often have that much access to, partly because towns aren't the same, there isn't the same level of independent traders where kids help their parents or family in their bakers, hardware store etc. kids might learn to switch on the central heating and how to use the tv and all the other remote controls and digital devices we have more than they would the other things, simply because they don't have access to it or their parents didn't learn these skills.

Kids would be more satisfied with life, if they could spend more time doing worthwhile activities, learning crafts and useful skills.

Things are different now.I grew up in the 70's and 80's. Back in the 70's, there was so much more interest in making, repairing or customizing your own clothes; sewing up holes in socks, sewing in buttons, make summer shorts out of old jeans, ironing on or sewing in badges and patches. Nowadays, people are willing to pay £100+ for a pair of cut-off jeans from a designer fashion store specializing in recycling garments. It seems to be more "cool" to spend £200 on a purchase than it is to make something for £20 of materials.

Back then, there wasn't an internet to speak off, so all information was from TV or in paper form. Books were cherished. Having a textbook on historical figures or countries made all the difference when writing a school essay on someone's homework. There were book clubs that would recommend the editors best picks. The system worked out that you would buy at least two books every month and then every fifth one free.

There were console systems but they were really basic. The popular gifts back then were TV annuals, drawing pads, and jumbo packs of colouring pens, along with skateboards and BMX bikes.

Originally posted by LUXUS

Originally posted by Hanslune


Yep you can cut granite with SAND that is driven or directed by a copper or bronze saw - you can even use wood but it tends to wear out real quick - yep and work was done with diorite hammers. Sure you can you just do it with small hammers, sand and lots of elbow grease.

Again if you really, firmly believe its impossible offer up that prize - what do you have to lose?

Why don't you get a piece of granite and try rubbing it with sand for a few hours ( I have) let us know what happens? Yep it might take many months or even years but it works, try it and report back.

I am aware how glass lenses or telescope mirrors can be made by lapping with sand to shape the glass however that method cannot be used to produce hieroglyphs in granite, particularly hieroglyph with straight lines and acute angles. To produce fine detail would take a fine pointed tool, a fine pointed tool made from stone simply would not work.

I think there's been some miscommunication here. The method for quarrying and smoothing granite would not be the same as the method for carving it. It is obvious that glyphs on obelisks were carved with chisels.

Glyphs on granite such as obelisks could have been made easier to carve by using fire on the surface, then allowing it to cool.

Unless I misremember, I believe you can find an archaeologist doing just this in this vid:


Also, you can read about it here.

You might like to read through this book by Denys Stocks on experimental archaeology.

A little more here on the subject.

Most of the above involves using fire to help quarry the stone. Work is being done concerning carving the stone this way as well, but I can't find it online right now.

I certainly understand that detailed carving on granite seems to be beyond the technology of ancient civilizations. However, there's no question they accomplished it. Regarding carvings of statuary or bowls/plates, etc., it's easier to see how they did this. But relief carvings inset on granite that are almost perfectly done is a harder pill to swallow.

Maybe seeing that the simple technology of fire makes this easier can help you and others understand why it is that such things need to be investigated, and not simply waved away as something that was 'impossible" for the ancients to accomplish and therefore evidence of some unknown technology or whatever.

Harte

EDITED to add: Sure, Hans gave you the title. But I gave you the book itself!

Puts me one up on you Hans!

H.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Ancient wisdom is clear when looking at the Mayans - good show for the masses back then! I hope to them the slumber is not interred.

Originally posted by Watcher26
But back to the point of 'resetting'. I've always found it very strange that we know nothing of our direct history beyond about 12,000 years ago. I just don't believe that there were not civilisations long before that... People were basically the same 500,000 years ago. Did we nearly wipe ourselves out and have to start again?

I guess you can (always) argue the quantity and quality, but we have lots of information about history beyond 12,000 years ago. Same for proto-humans beyond 500,000. The natural given with history is that the farther back you go, the less information you have. It's just that way. But anthropological and genetic research that has been done tells the story of from where we came and how we evolved and developed. Though the details may become less avid the farther back you go, there does not seem to be such a lack of information as to allow for wide expanses where entire civilizations of some other type of man could have risen, created civilizations to rival ours, then disappeared. The general timeline of the history of earth, and more specifically, human development, has been determined. I know a lot of people don't want to hear that, but it's true. One can always easily argue whether it's right. For me, I see more evidence that it is than that there have been opportunities for another or multiple rises and collapses of civilizations different than our own.

reply to post by stormcell


Exactly, and kids were happier and less neurotic.

The amount of arguments my son throws about not wearing certain things, hoodies with shorts, not those jeans, not that t shirt, specific sweatshirts, etc, and the constant 'need' for the latest phones, ipads, tablets, tv's, blue rays, headphones etc or it is ''embarassing''. And I am a pretty cool mother, I buy decent tasteful cool things but still the arguments.

In the 70's and 80's I was happy with my hi fi, vinyl, tapes and made do with the house phone, which had a manual dial and was corded. I watched educational tv and sometimes entertainment but most of the time, even as a teenager was spend going out, with friends, boyfriends, school theatre nights or doing homework. I would never have contemplated staying in and giving facetime to a screen like a lot of kids today.

Technology obviously has it's greatness and I wouldn't give up the technology I have, though there should be consideration given to where children will be psychologically in 10, 20, 50 years from now, are they going to be able to hold down relationships further than facebook / pm /facetime soundbites and fakery? I hope so.

Originally posted by Watcher26
But back to the point of 'resetting'. I've always found it very strange that we know nothing of our direct history beyond about 12,000 years ago.

Actually, we know quite a bit about it. Here in the Americas, we're starting to get to the human history on THIS continent that's between 10,000 and 20,000 years old (some hints that it might eventually go back to 30,000 years.) It's very interesting stuff.

Not really sure what you mean by the statement above. Our present technology is magnitudes of levels above the Sumerians, they were at the beginning of what would become science so its a little unfair to compare them to science today, they did the best they could with the limitations they had.

reply to post by Hanslune


i disagree completely. maybe at a quick glance would our civilization be taken as more sophisticated, but if you take an in depth comparison, they far outmatch us. you are right, though. they were at the beginning of science, but that only serves to magnify our admiration. they did what we can only now do, and thats with the advent of science. how do you propose that the incans created the nazca lines? all that we can do is with the help of technology. i'm barely 18 last week, but unlike most kids my age, i am not crippled by technology. i can hunt, skin and prepare meat. i can cook full meals, and can sow. i am one of the few in that regard. but, if i may, let me propose a hypothetical scenario. say that all of our technology, and the knowledge to go with it, got wiped out, putting us in the shoes of these ancient civilizations. we would be completely hopeless, and would not even come close to comparing with them. at least, this is my opinion. forever in search of knowledge-

Our ancestors weren't capable of making some of the things they thought of simply because they lacked technology and knowledge

reply to post by Byrd


its things like that that make me wonder... they were advanced enough already, i wonder how much more they could have done had they the knowledge and technology. heh, i wonder if centuries from now, some archeologists and anthropologists will think the same of our culture..

Advanced would be a projection inside a celestial body that orbits STAR SOL and when comes near EA*RTH every so many years it stops and Projects Images videos of actual events recorded on and off EA*RTH.

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


that would be incredible

Originally posted by rain7

Not really sure what you mean by the statement above. Our present technology is magnitudes of levels above the Sumerians, they were at the beginning of what would become science so its a little unfair to compare them to science today, they did the best they could with the limitations they had.

reply to post by Hanslune

 

i disagree completely. maybe at a quick glance would our civilization be taken as more sophisticated, but if you take an in depth comparison, they far outmatch us. you are right, though. they were at the beginning of science, but that only serves to magnify our admiration. they did what we can only now do, and thats with the advent of science.

Please expand on the highlighted statement. Exactly what is it you believe the Sumerians did that we can only now do?

Originally posted by rain7 how do you propose that the incans created the nazca lines?

They didn't. The Nazca Indians did.

Originally posted by rain7...say that all of our technology, and the knowledge to go with it, got wiped out, putting us in the shoes of these ancient civilizations. we would be completely hopeless, and would not even come close to comparing with them. at least, this is my opinion. forever in search of knowledge-

This is true. That would be a major change in lifestyle.

When major changes in lifestyle happened in the ancient world, similar things happened to them.

The Nazca are, in fact, an example of just this sort of thing. So are the Maya, and so was Babylon and Ancient Egypt. All the above cultures were either destroyed or dispersed through major changes, primarily weather though economics also caused some collapses.

Harte

Originally posted by rain7
if i may, let me propose a hypothetical scenario. say that all of our technology, and the knowledge to go with it, got wiped out, putting us in the shoes of these ancient civilizations. we would be completely hopeless, and would not even come close to comparing with them. at least, this is my opinion. forever in search of knowledge-

Err... I don't think that's possible and I don't think you understand how sophisticated ancient civilizations were. We could, using tools from ancient Egypt, get back up to the level of automobiles and jet planes within a hundred years. They had most of the modern comforts, including ways to keep their houses cool, they had sophisticated ovens and metal smelting furnaces, weights and measurements, looms, transportation, wheels, and a hundred other things that you might not be aware of, including paper and ink. Transport any scientist or mathematician to those conditions and they can start to rebuild their field quickly.

And that's the argument against the "civilization collapsed and the Giant Stupidity Field overwhelmed all of humanity" scenario. You would have to destroy every single person with specialized knowledge (and some of them start pretty young) AND destroy the ability to communicate AND destroy the ability to use knowledge tools (such as writing, music, communications methods (smoke signals, art, etc)) to get the "back to the chimpanzees" scenario.

Large world civilizations have collapsed before, but that meant there was a change of rulership and culture and a change on what was important to the new rulers (religion rather than science, for instance) and a change in who held knowledge (generally the educated ones fled to civilizations that welcomed their skills.)

Originally posted by rain7

Our ancestors weren't capable of making some of the things they thought of simply because they lacked technology and knowledge

reply to post by Byrd

 

its things like that that make me wonder... they were advanced enough already, i wonder how much more they could have done had they the knowledge and technology. heh, i wonder if centuries from now, some archeologists and anthropologists will think the same of our culture..

All knowledge comes from other knowledge.

You can't build a car until you learn how to make an engine and you can't make an engine until you learn how to make driveshafts and gears and you can't power that until you learn how to harness transportable power and you can't build transportable power until you understand combustion technology and you can't understand combustion technology until you master creating standardized chemical formulas and you can't master that until you understand how to make standardized chemicals but you can't make those until you've learned how to make containers (glassware) ... and so on down the line.

They'd have done about as well as we do now.