Gay Colorado couple sues bakery for allegedly refusing them wedding cake

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


That is what happens all the time..people walk away and nothing is done. It will be interesting to see what happens when it goes to court and other cases where this is coming up.

You are discriminating against a persons beliefs whether or not he is a business owner. It is his right as a citizen of the United States to have his beliefs. That is not what our country was founded on and is why we have some many screwed up laws that contradict each other. The law protects not all but a small fraction of the populous and is then shoved at everyone. Not fair to all, only to 2 men who want a cake for something that is not even recognized in the State where you try to use the law.

This is not a win for anyone. No one. It shows that those who want to berate someone else into believing a law that fits their argument will do so. Like a special interest group.

Even when i state it was wrong for him to not make it, even when i point out he would do ANYTHING else for them except make a wedding cake, you still want to push the point he discriminated.

Also., you are not speaking for all gay people folks....

Link

n other words, religion is a key part of this debate. Here’s a key block of material right up top:

Jonathan Soroff lives in liberal Massachusetts with his male partner, Sam. He doesn’t fit the common stereotype of an opponent of gay marriage. But like half of his friends, he does not believe that couples of the same gender should marry.

“We’re not going to procreate as a couple and while the desire to demonstrate commitment might be laudable, the religious traditions that have accommodated same-sex couples have had to do some fairly major contortions,” says Soroff.

Until the federal government recognises and codifies the same rights for same-sex couples as straight ones, equality is the goal so why get hung up on a word, he asks.

“I’m not going to walk down the aisle to Mendelssohn wearing white in a church and throw a bouquet and do the first dance,” adds Soroff, columnist for the Improper Boston. “I’ve been to some lovely gay weddings but aping the traditional heterosexual wedding is weird and I don’t understand why anyone wants to do that.

“I’m not saying that people who want that shouldn’t have it but for me, all that matters is the legal stuff.”

What do you have to say to that?

reply to post by esdad71


It's protecting Everyone from discrimination, i believe highly in Freedom of expression, and Freedom of speech likewise, but this has nothing to do with with is Religion, nor anyone's religion, he is free to practice his religion, he could decorate his entire store with religious symbols, and he could quote scriptures to everyone that walked in if he wanted to, he just can't discriminate against anyone

the moment he denied a cake based on a certain 'thing' it became discrimination, regardless if the courts recognized gay marriage or not, the cake was not wedding them, it was for a celebration of their marriage, if he doesn't agree with it, he doesn't have to, but to offer a service to everyone (including dogs) but Gay couples is discrimination

reply to post by esdad71


Discrimination is discrimination.

If a business owner denies service based upon a religious belief that's still discrimination.

If a Muslim business owner denied a customer service because he reeked of bacon that would be discrimination.

If a Jewish business owner denied a customer service because he was a gentile that would be discrimination.

If a Hindu business owner denied a customer service because he came into the store eating a burger that would be discrimination.

We have plenty of laws on the books that describe the limits of our freedoms. Such as yelling fire in a crowded theater. And one persons freedoms may not infringe on someone elses rights.

reply to post by grey580

And one persons freedoms may not infringe on someone elses rights.

Glad you used that one. So a persons freedom to be gay in this case is imposing on someones right to practice and believe in religion. How does that fit?

reply to post by esdad71

Originally posted by esdad71
You are discriminating against a persons beliefs...

Beliefs don't have rights. Beliefs don't have the right to equal treatment or non-discrimination.

Originally posted by esdad71
It is his right as a citizen of the United States to have his beliefs.

Yes. And it's my right to have a belief that my neighbor should die. But it is NOT my right to act on that belief outside the law. And it's not the baker's right to act on his belief, outside the law.

Originally posted by esdad71
So a persons freedom to be gay in this case is imposing on someones right to practice and believe in religion.

And we go back to my original question (which I KNOW you won't answer):

How is the baker's right to practice and believe in religion affected by him making a cake for these guys?

Practice: He can go to church, pray, wear religious clothing, post religious signage, follow religious law, sing religious songs, raise his family in the church, etc.

Belief: He can believe that gay marriage is wrong. But he can't DO something about it outside the law.

Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by grey580

 

And one persons freedoms may not infringe on someone elses rights.

Glad you used that one. So a persons freedom to be gay in this case is imposing on someones right to practice and believe in religion. How does that fit?

Again if the religious practice is discriminatory and business is involved that has rules and regulations placed upon it by federal, state and local law that says you may not discriminate against your customers for any reason. Your 2nd amendment beliefs may not be imposed on others.

This is tantamount to saying we don't serve your kind here.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Do you practice a religion? This is a very important question in this debate and to help me understand where your POV is coming from. I have never met anyone who is so adamant about not allowing someone to have beliefs or faith.

How is the baker's right to practice and believe in religion affected by him making a cake for these guys?

Because it goes against his core beliefs. What he lives by. Again, how can you tell a person they do not have that right to relgious freedom.

reply to post by esdad71

Originally posted by esdad71
Do you practice a religion?

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with this debate! I am not involved in the legal case whatsoever.

I have never met anyone who is so adamant about not allowing someone to have beliefs or faith.

I have NO issue with this man having his belief or practicing his religion. I stand as strongly for his first amendment rights as I do for the gay couple's right to buy a wedding cake from the business they choose.

Again, how can you tell a person they do not have that right to relgious freedom.

I have said no such thing.

reply to post by esdad71



Equality is the goal. Thank you for bolding that statement.

That's what I have to say to that.

reply to post by esdad71



The business is not a person. The business and its owner are two separate entities. The sooner you understand that, the sooner this thread can go away.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by esdad71

 

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with this debate! I am not involved in the legal case whatsoever.

It does. It might help me to understand what POV you have. Sociology 101. If you do not want to, fine, but it answers my question to a point. You care more about gay rights than religious freedom. That is the assumption if you will not answer. That is fine but it shows where you are coming from. I have been more than patient and open, if you were are tolerant and accepting as you preach you would also.

reply to post by esdad71

Originally posted by esdad71
It might help me to understand what POV you have.

I come from the LEGAL POV

You care more about gay rights than religious freedom. That is the assumption if you will not answer.

Assume anything you want. You're caught up in thinking that this baker has the "religious freedom" to discriminate. NOWHERE in the first amendment or ANY law OR in the bible is discrimination part of religion.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


A business is an extension of a person. If he did a great job you would tell the owner good job right? It is HIS business.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


The Legal POV does NOT recognize same sex marriage. Therefore, it cannot be protected.

Can you answer though how this infringes on his right of belief?

you seem to evade, and circle around this one question, how does discrimination laws infringe on right of belief?

If ones Belief allows discrimination, than ones religions is discriminatory, so are you saying *X* religion is discriminative?

Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

A business is an extension of a person. If he did a great job you would tell the owner good job right? It is HIS business.

I don't think you understand business law at all.

reply to post by Darth_Prime

how does discrimination laws infringe on right of belief?

He does not believe in same sex marriage according to his religion. So, if a law is passed that tells him he has to do something that is the opposite of his beliefs, it is discrimination against what HE believes in. I truly do not give 2 #s about the baker. It is the concept, that if someone feels a certain way that others can make them do it.

An example - So, if you have a transgender(male who believes they are female), can they make them wear a cup which is protective gear in sports that is required? He believes and has faith that he is a woman but the
rules' of the game say he has to wear a cup. He does not want to. can he be forced too...

that is the problem. With laws like this there are a multitude of issues that can arise.

reply to post by esdad71

Originally posted by esdad71
The Legal POV does NOT recognize same sex marriage. Therefore, it cannot be protected.

No one is suggesting that gay marriage be protected. What IS protected is the consumer.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee
I don't think you understand business law at all.

That's the bottom line. Couple that with a stubborn unwillingness to learn, and you have a 35 page thread.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee


Because the person did not build the business right, you did? The consumer? Consumers have a choice, a business does not. A consumer can go where they want when they want.

I think you do not understand America and I am tired of people chipping it away brick by brick.

reply to post by esdad71

Originally posted by esdad71
He does not believe in same sex marriage according to his religion. So, if a law is passed that tells him he has to do something that is the opposite of his beliefs, it is discrimination against what HE believes in.

So, if his religion told him that people of other religions should be killed, and he BELIEVED it, but the law didn't allow him to kill, he's being discriminated against. That's what you're saying.