Gay Colorado couple sues bakery for allegedly refusing them wedding cake

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


You mean they would have the nerve to talk about discriminating against gays as if it were on par with discriminating against race?

Preposterous!!!

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

I know I would want it for my son. I was normal in every way growing up, and I hated shower time. I was a team captain, all state player....and did everything I could to avoid having to humiliate myself by bathing in front of my peers. If you want my real opinion, THAT should go the way of the dinosaur right now.

Glad to know I wasn't the only one...I too was captain, all state and played for (arguably) the most historically successful program in my state. My senior year showers were mandated after practice by our new coach. I would wear my gear and run my head under the shower and get out as quickly as possible. On a more sinister note, a year later the coach who mandated the showers was found guilty of sexual abuse of a minor.

CJ

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


So whose decision is it to label someone as gay outside of school and what are the qualifications? Who writes that law. Who is the judge of that. It is easy to say how something will be or hope it that way but in the real world it does not always work as planned.

The showed an analysis of the law and I have stated before that it is the one ruling on a law that interprets it, and historically, a law used decades apart can have different meaning

The law was passed for one purpose..and I agree with it.

AB 1266 states that public schools cannot discriminate in any way concerning the sex of the student. Both sexes are to have equal access to all offered courses, counseling and athletics.

...and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records

Does not matter what is listed on a pupils records. Teachers do not watch kids now, you think they will police this? What seems like a good idea will lead to more bullying and, hopefully not, rape. You are 'making' kids who may not want to or be ready to come out do just that. Again ,who the hell is the government to tell someone what they MUST do? Furthermore, if a child says they are and you question it, under this, it is discrimination, right?

As one poster noted, there are sickos in the school system. I had a middle school soccer coach who had 'parties' at his house. I was never allowed to go as a kid and did not know why. Turns out he had been molesting a 'pair' of brothers and sisters since they were in 3rd grade.

This may be protecting those your care about but it is opening other doors that you do not care about because of an agenda. Maybe if people who were gay just asked for the same rights as they did years ago and not special privilege I could compare it to the Rosa Parks analogy.

reply to post by esdad71


"Same rights"??? All rights are inherent in your existence. They are inalienable. They don't grow or shrink They are, regardless of time.


Now, how those rights are suppressed varies depending on the tyranny of both the government and the culture. Currently we are seeing cultural tyranny waning while governmental tyranny waxes.

BUt it seems like you are basically taking a "let them eat cake" attitude (to use an ironic pun here).

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

Rights...right to marriage...right to healthcare...right to death benefits...those rights. I think we have gone back and forth long enough to make a few assumptions here.

Who does not have the right in this case to choice? The boy/girl who may feel uncomfortable having to not only shower but know that he is there with someone who may be looking at them in the shower. It will make more kids uncomfortable than kids it will protect. This will lead to fights and again, who is policing it?

Who determines this and if it does not go by the 'clinic card', how is it policed. So now there is a list of LGBT kids? Would you want your child on that 'list'? Why is it needed?

So, just as the baker cannot make a decision based on his freedom of religion schoolchildren will now have to accept something they may not want and that is showering with the opposite sex.

reply to post by esdad71

Originally posted by esdad71
So whose decision is it to label someone as gay outside of school and what are the qualifications? Who writes that law. Who is the judge of that.

I have no idea why you ask me these questions, as if I'm an expert on California law. If you want the answers, look them up.

It is easy to say how something will be or hope it that way but in the real world it does not always work as planned.

So, should we just stop trying to make life better for our kids because it might not always work as planned? I don't think so. We try it, see how it works and adjust if necessary.

The showed an analysis of the law and I have stated before that it is the one ruling on a law that interprets it, and historically, a law used decades apart can have different meaning

The law was passed for one purpose..and I agree with it.

You are 'making' kids who may not want to or be ready to come out do just that.

Excuse me? I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not doing any such thing. That's a very silly statement.

This may be protecting those your care about but it is opening other doors that you do not care about because of an agenda.

You are mistaken if you think I care any more about a kid because he's LBGT than if he's not. I'm just explaining the law to you. YOU brought up the law and I looked into it and explained that they aren't going to be showering together willy-nilly.

Maybe if people who were gay just asked for the same rights as they did years ago and not special privilege I could compare it to the Rosa Parks analogy.

They're asking for too many rights for you, huh?

reply to post by esdad71


If you were a parent in California, I'm sure you could ask those questions of the school and come to a satisfactory compromise or situation in which ALL kids' privacy rights would be protected. That's the whole point.

Would I want my child on a list of LGBT kids at his school? If it was OK with him, sure, why not? It's nothing to be ashamed of. If it was not OK with him, I would work something out with the school. (By the way, my kids would NEVER go to public school - not in a million years.)

Originally posted by esdad71
So, just as the baker cannot make a decision based on his freedom of religion schoolchildren will now have to accept something they may not want and that is showering with the opposite sex.

The first part of this statement shows that after 36 pages, you still do not understand this case.

Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

So whose decision is it to label someone as gay outside of school and what are the qualifications? Who writes that law. Who is the judge of that. It is easy to say how something will be or hope it that way but in the real world it does not always work as planned.

I think you will find that no-one gives anyone the label of gay. A gay person voluntarily identifies as being so. It's what we call coming out.

*Edit* I am not impying a person voluntarily chooses to be gay in this statement. I am implying that a person chooses to reveal their sexuality on a voluntary basis because one cannot tell a person is gay by simply looking at them in most cases*

The assumption here is that we take the person on their word based on the idea that very few if any non gay people are going to fake being gay for a right they already have.

AB 1266 states that public schools cannot discriminate in any way concerning the sex of the student. Both sexes are to have equal access to all offered courses, counseling and athletics.

...and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records

Does not matter what is listed on a pupils records. Teachers do not watch kids now, you think they will police this? What seems like a good idea will lead to more bullying and, hopefully not, rape. You are 'making' kids who may not want to or be ready to come out do just that. Again ,who the hell is the government to tell someone what they MUST do? Furthermore, if a child says they are and you question it, under this, it is discrimination, right?

No, no, NO. You are showing a clear misunderstanding of sexuality here. Some boys are very effeminate all their lives and some girls are extremely tomboy like all their lives. These people are instantly labelled as gay by their peers. Some will own it (and kudos to them for their bravery) and others will be crushed by the bullying and harassment they receive because of it. However, there are a large number of gay people who are completely invisible - the Highschool football team captain and the Prom queen types. These people are very fortunate as they get to decide themselves if when and how they come out.

As one poster noted, there are sickos in the school system. I had a middle school soccer coach who had 'parties' at his house. I was never allowed to go as a kid and did not know why. Turns out he had been molesting a 'pair' of brothers and sisters since they were in 3rd grade.

You are talking pedophilia, not homosexuality here. The children who are victims of this despicable crime are by far the most in need of help and protection from the purveyors of such crimes.

This may be protecting those your care about but it is opening other doors that you do not care about because of an agenda. Maybe if people who were gay just asked for the same rights as they did years ago and not special privilege I could compare it to the Rosa Parks analogy.

What 'special' rights are we asking for when we ask to not be thrown out of a shop because we ask to buy a wedding cake? What special rights are we asking for when we ask for legal recognition of our loving relationships? What special rights are we asking for when we try and protect the young from bullying and harassment?

Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Rights...right to marriage...right to healthcare...right to death benefits...those rights. I think we have gone back and forth long enough to make a few assumptions here.

Who does not have the right in this case to choice? The boy/girl who may feel uncomfortable having to not only shower but know that he is there with someone who may be looking at them in the shower. It will make more kids uncomfortable than kids it will protect. This will lead to fights and again, who is policing it?

Who determines this and if it does not go by the 'clinic card', how is it policed. So now there is a list of LGBT kids? Would you want your child on that 'list'? Why is it needed?

So, just as the baker cannot make a decision based on his freedom of religion schoolchildren will now have to accept something they may not want and that is showering with the opposite sex.

edit on 15-6-2013 by esdad71 because: (no reason given)

Not sure how it is where you are, but here the parents have all the control. We elect the school board, and if that fails we can show up on campus to air grievances (i have had to fight for my sons right to defend himself from bullies). What you propose would only happen in the supposition of conversations like this. In the real world....not likely.

reply to post by markosity1973


This law is "labeling" them as gay. In both cases, not me.

Originally posted by markosity1973


What 'special' rights are we asking for when we ask to not be thrown out of a shop because we ask to buy a wedding cake? What special rights are we asking for when we ask for legal recognition of our loving relationships? What special rights are we asking for when we try and protect the young from bullying and harassment?

edit on 15-6-2013 by markosity1973 because: (no reason given)

Indeed. It is finally time for this wrong to be righted.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


In the real world. I told you earlier the story of my son. BUllied and called gay. The principal of the school told my wife and I that it was better if "they, the school, did not punish the child who did this as he is on the right track. He has so many problems why add to it". Just talk to your child. My son thought he say " the "Fat kid" not faggot because of the urban accent. He is in first grade and DOES not need to kn ow what faggot means now or ever. NO help from these back ass country jerkoffs. We have move now 5 counties over and are starting over at a new MOntessori school and hopefully it helps.

I then went to the school board and they did absolutely NOTHING. No investigation as is required...nothing. This si why we have filed a lawsuit against the School Board in (county) in Florida. I am pissed. We will win and I will make sure that NO other child is attacked and it pushed aside in this way. Ever.

Not only was it a gay slur, it was a black kid calling my son a "little white faggot" because he went to yoga after school with all girls.. That is a hate crime by definition. So, when you people are telling me that I do not understand or that I am a bigot it REALLY pisses me off because I am going through # you never had to. Things more difficult than two men who had a choice.oif where to get a cake and not give the guy the finger and leave. The ignorance of saying they did not know is so sickening. The LGBT community is very, very tight. They need to be. They have to be.

and the 'my kids will never go to public school' remark. Private school is no better, trust me, I went to one and so did my oldest son. It just costs you money for them to screw up your kid and you to not have control..less control to complain than in a private school.

Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by markosity1973

 

This law is "labeling" them as gay. In both cases, not me.

The law is using the socially accepted term for our sexuality. What would you have them term us if not gay? It is not derogatory to call someone gay as a reference to their sexuality and it is not racist to call someone Asian in reference to their area of origin.

We need names to call things - in the eyes of the law they are not derogatory, they are just something to call whatever is trying to be identified.

Why are we discussing sexual preference AT ALL in an elementary school? I absolutely HATE that I have had to explain what gay and lesbian means, before I've even had the 'sex' talk with my children.

We are so caught up with being politically correct these days, that we've forgotten what arithmetic is. Sad, that our children are falling behind other countries at exponential rates; yet we'll hold town-hall meetings ad nausea and call in the national press; just to be sure 'Timmy' fully understands what it means to be gay.

How about we focus on 'Timmy' learning logarithmic problems and leave the 'sex' talk to the social responsibility class I'm sure will be part of the High School curriculum in less than five years from now.

reply to post by esdad71


It seems that in one post, you're complaining about the school's attempts to do something to make kids' school experience more bearable and in the next post, you're complaining that the school doesn't do enough... I'm very confused about your position.

reply to post by SourGrapes

Originally posted by SourGrapes
Why are we discussing sexual preference AT ALL in an elementary school?

Because it's a fact of life. Kids have gay parents. They see gay people in movies, on TV and in life. They know what marriage and family is. They learn about men and women falling in love and getting married. Sometimes it's men and men and sometimes it's women and women.

Also, some kids know their sexuality at a very young age and to teach them that they are OK and not some sort of demented freak isn't a bad thing.

I absolutely HATE that I have had to explain what gay and lesbian means, before I've even had the 'sex' talk with my children.

If you've ever taught them anything about a man and a woman falling in love, getting married and having a family, you're teaching them about heterosexuality. Sex doesn't have to be involved. Part of the problem is that people think being gay is all about sex, when it's just the same as heterosexuality - people falling in love with other people... Unless you go into details about how mommy and daddy intimately express their love, there's no need to bring sex into it at all.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Posted with emotion and not clarity....(removed)

reply to post by esdad71


Edit because he retracted the post.

reply to post by boymonkey74


Stay in the right thread boymonkey...feels like you are a stalker...this is a long thread that has had lots of banter but again, as in the other thread, I will not simply go silent because someone else thinks they are louder, or larger or has more weight.

reply to post by esdad71


Just because Iam active in both threads doesn't mean Iam a stalker.....
Oh and likewise I will not stay silent because you think Iam stalking you, I stay and fight against bigoted outdated ideas, or just against people who think their rights trump over others.