Gay Colorado couple sues bakery for allegedly refusing them wedding cake

Originally posted by Nucleardiver

Originally posted by HandyDandy
Would people's views be any different if it were a KKK member owned backery and they refused to sell a wedding cake to an inter racial couple?

Remember that the KKK was founded as a Christian group.

I believe at least a few would......

This is exactly the point that I was attempting to make. Since we all have the right to believe as we choose how do we determine who's right carries more weight?

This is an age old question for which Religion was invented to bring peace and harmony in a society as political systems were too complicated/corrupted and not to mention people/groups/societies thinking individually or extremely different. Where does one draw the line? You either have Laws or Religion that controls the society IMO.

Edit: Oops! I'm wrong. The baker is violating the law. Please see this post... www.abovetopsecret.com...
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The bakery can refuse if they want and the gay couple can sue if they want. This is America, people! Both are within their rights.

And yes, this is the same story from last year, only now, they're suing. What suing does, even if they don't win, is elevate the visibility of the bakery (as anti-equality) so that other gay people (and their allies) will NOT shop there. How many times have you all encouraged a boycott of one business or another because you didn't agree with their policy or beliefs? That's what this couple is doing, in essence.

But they are both well within their rights.

How much do you want to bet, that when gay marriage becomes legal in Colorado, the bakery owner will suddenly be only too happy to cater to gay weddings, realizing that he should keep his religion separate from his business?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The bakery can refuse if they want and the gay couple can sue if they want. This is America, people!

Both are within their rights.

And yes, this is the same story from last year, only now, they're suing. What suing does, even if they don't win, is elevate the visibility of the bakery (as anti-equality) so that other gay people (and their allies) will NOT shop there. How many times have you all encouraged a boycott of one business or another because you didn't agree with their policy or beliefs? That's what this couple is doing, in essence.

But they are both well within their rights.

How much do you want to bet, that when gay marriage becomes legal in Colorado, the bakery owner will suddenly be only too happy to cater to gay weddings, realizing that he should keep his religion separate from his business?

Yep. I also remember when folks (mostly the lame MSM) made a big issue about 'Chick-filet'' last year due to the owner's religious beliefs. If not anything, they received a tremendous support from their customers

Originally posted by Nucleardiver

Originally posted by HandyDandy
Would people's views be any different if it were a KKK member owned backery and they refused to sell a wedding cake to an inter racial couple?

Remember that the KKK was founded as a Christian group.

I believe at least a few would......

Good point, but even better yet what if it was a KKK member that had wanted to buy a cake for some KKK celebration? If he were refused service by the owner would the ACLU be taking up his cause and would he be justified in his litigation?

This is exactly the point that I was attempting to make. Since we all have the right to believe as we choose how do we determine who's right carries more weight?

Yeah, except in the case of a gay couple, it's not about their beliefs, but the fact that they are gay. It's interesting that you bring up the example of a KKK member, who is obviously bigoted by choice (and obviously has the right to be).

reply to post by Nucleardiver
I don't see how this is any different from any other business refusing service. Most businesses post a sign saying that they reserve the right to refuse service. Back in the 90s I owned a residential and commercial cleaning business. I refused a few customers for different reasons, one of which was a man who refused to put up his dogs while I and 2 of my employees were to clean his house. Should he have been able to sue me for being prejudiced against dog owners? (I myself am a dog owner, but that's beside the point.) I refused further service after an initial job at an office suit because my employees felt uncomfortable. There was a nearly all male staff and the girls felt uncomfortable with the looks they were getting. Should they have been able to sue me for being prejudiced against males?

As a business owner at that time I felt like I had the right to refuse service when it caused myself or my employees to feel uncomfortable. Despite not sharing the bakery owner's feelings regarding homosexuals I feel like they have the right to refuse service if it is seriously conflicts with their religious beliefs. I must say that as a Christian I don't agree with their interpretation ( I go with "Love thy neighbor" and "Judge not" in my beliefs) but I feel they are within their rights nonetheless.

I'm wondering if some 'nudists' couple would walk into one of the retail stores and they'll be refused for service by the business. Businesses have signs (atleast the retail ones) indicating 'no shoes no shirt no service'. Would that be discriminating against the 'nudists' ? They should protest like the LGBT crowd in DC too IMO

reply to post by Nucleardiver


Where did Jesus say, where is it in the New Testament, that Christians should shun, or refuse to work with people who are "sinners"? Does this give Christians carte blanch to refuse to work closely with gay co-workers in other venues?

This, in my opinion, is just an excuse to discriminate against others because they are different.

Last time I checked, discrimination based on sexual orientation was illegal.

Originally posted by HandyDandy

Would people's views be any different if it were a KKK member owned backery and they refused to sell a wedding cake to an inter racial couple?

Does christianity forbid relationship of inter racial couples? KKK does not represent christianity They are one of the thousands of groups that form time to time with amended/altered views and belief system. There have been thousands before them and there will be thousands after them. The core religious beliefs will not vanish if you havn't noticed around the world be it Christianity, Buddhism, Islam or Hinduism etc etc.

Remember that the KKK was founded as a Christian group.

There are several such religious factions all over the world. Similar to the extremists in Islam. We cannot sum up the entire Christianity based on this one single group.

I believe at least a few would

I agree. There are plenty followers of the group's belief system in the mid-west that I have witnessed.

After reading the article the following can be stated:

Everyone is entitled to their own belief and opinion, there is no doubt on that. The freedom of expression is one that has been held at the highest value of all in the USA. At the same time, the freedom of Religion is another long standing tradition in the USA. The ultimate problem is that now both rights and values under the law is coming into conflict, and this is where one will loose due to a case like this.

The real pain of it all, both sides are correct in their assessment, the couple who is wanting to celebrate their marriage is seeking equality under the law, and with all of the bells and whistles that go along with it. At the same time on the other side is the bakery owner and his right to not only run a business as he so chooses but also to the clientel that he has, and there is nothing that states he can not include his personal religious belief in his business or how he runs his business.

And after giving a bit of thought to this, and many will or will not like this reasoning to this argument, it is valid, the courts should find in favor of the business owner. There is nothing in this country, save very few positions,that would deny a person their right to expression or religion. The only ones who usually have to be guarded in what they say or accept are those at the highest levels of power, and based on what is going on in DC, one could wonder if they actually follow what they sit in a place of worship and ask for forgiveness for.

The business owner has the right to refuse to do business with anyone at any time and should never, ever be forced to give a reason why. Nor should we question such, though many times a business would give a reason why. In this case, the business owner feels that it would violate his belief. The owner could have simply stated he can not do business with the couple and sent them on their way, then it would have not been an issue. But here is where it gets sticky and into the gray area of the law, someone the couple found out the owners belief and believe it to be a hate crime, that they are being discriminated against. Are they being persecuted, no, as there is no evidence to the contrary. Is this the only baker in the city of Denver, probably not, there are other bakers and some who would be more than willing to provide them with services.

This law suit, is wrong, and should never have been brought to court, as it only will serve to fuel the flames of intollerance on the part of both sides. Acceptance has to be a 2 way street, and ultimately, with any business the way you get them to change is through the bottom line. All this is going to do is cause more problems in a state that not too long ago, tried to ban gay people in the first place, and give those on the religious right, ammunition to try again, if anything making any other laws harder to get passed.

A final thought: It is better to do business with a business owner like this baker, or Chik-felia or any other business that is very clear cut on their beliefs, cause then you know where you stand with them, than one that folds to public pressure, as then they are definately hiding something.

reply to post by hp1229

I think the owner doesn't believe in same sex marriage. Nothing to do with race or ethnicity IMO He has all the right to refuse to sell a 'wedding cake'. Definition of weddings vary according to different religions but none of them have anything mentioned about 'same sex marriage'. Personally I couldn't care less if I were the bakery owner as to me its about business transactions even though I am not in favor of same sex marriage.

It's funny so he won't sell a wedding cake to a gay couple because it violates his religious beliefs.
But I'd bet you he'd sell a wedding cake to a couple where the female was not a virgin.

Deuteronomy 22:20-21

If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

Interesting how he we bend on some of the rules in the Bible but don't bend for others isn't it.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Nucleardiver

 

Last time I checked, discrimination based on sexual orientation was illegal.

The owner never mentioned anything about sexual orientation. It is based on the purchase of a 'wedding cake'. Now lets talk about what is 'marriage or wedding' as per the religion. The owner has a right to argue and refuse based upon the laws of his belief system/religion. This is nothing more than a stunt to push for the amended laws and constitution by the LGBT groups. Stir controversies and push the agendas (government welfare and benefits for gay couples).

reply to post by grey580
I cannot speculate on what would the owner do if the couple was a hetrosexual with a virgin bride. Which doesn't seem to be the case as he has been in the business and been selling wedding cakes in Colorado.

With respect to the Bible, there are so many versions. Needless to say either change the law or change the religious texts Where do you draw the line? How many women are virgins (percentage) these days when they marry?

Originally posted by hp1229
push the agendas

Equal treatment for all is a pretty good agenda.

Originally posted by redtic

Originally posted by hp1229
push the agendas

Equal treatment for all is a pretty good agenda.

Wishful thinking and sincerely wish it works out for the LGBT groups. I also wish everyone treated each other equally around the world then we wouldn't have had much of the violent and weird history since the dawn of time However I also believe that one should not force/shove their belief system unto/upon others directly/indirectly The owner simply refused to accept the marital belief system of the gay couple

reply to post by TheRedneck
Nicely put

reply to post by TheRedneck


I hear ya.

I guess this is why we live in a free country right.

The said gay couple can always go to a different bakery and recommend that bakery to all their gay friends while boycotting the first one.

And that would effectively end this discussion.

Originally posted by grey580

Does the same business owner have the right to discriminate against someone if they are black, hispanic, chinese, muslim or hindu? If the answer is no why does he get a pass on discriminating on gay people?

Because the owner is expressing their religious freedoms/rights. In the owners view he will not contribute to what he defines as sin. He personally doesn't define as sin the marriage of black, hispanic, chinese, muslim, or hindu couples, but he does define as sin same sex marriges, and as such will express his religious freedom by repectfully refusing service.

I personally would view the service differently, but the thing about religion is it is personal, and each citizen of this country is free to express their religions as long as it does not infringe on the personal rights of others. This choice did not infringe on the rights of the same sex couple, there are dozens of bakeries in Denver that fully support same sex unions, and at least 5 owned by gay owners. No rights were infringed upon by the choice for this private sector business owner to not perform an action that in his mind was concidered sin before his definition of God.

The OP is right though this is a slipery slope, but I think the OP is viewing it delicately and correctly IMO.

God Bless,

Common Sense Post -

So, if I went to this bakery, and asked them to make a cake that had the devil riding a motorcycle on it, or a naked half naked woman and he said no, because of his religious beliefs, would I sue? No, I would go to another bakery. This is a simple analogy but let me expand further.

This bakery seems to be, as stated in the article, well known for not doing same sex marriage cakes. So, why would you go there as a gay couple? To start trouble. Bottom line. There are 100's of other bakeries, and in Colorado, I am sure there are 'gay' friendly bakeries, so why not go there and support someone who also supports the rights you feel you are entitled to. Real simple.


BTW - I believe gay people have every right to get married, divorced, pay alimony, etc just like everyone else. It is time though to stop bringing this to the forefront and honestly, wasting the time of the American tax payer when it could be used to help children be adopted or hundreds of other cases that could have an impact on the nation.

Originally posted by grey580


It's funny so he won't sell a wedding cake to a gay couple because it violates his religious beliefs.
But I'd bet you he'd sell a wedding cake to a couple where the female was not a virgin.


Interesting how he we bend on some of the rules in the Bible but don't bend for others isn't it.

This is the exact reason why I have a hard time with the whole "religious objection" excuse. If you are going to follow religious beliefs, then follow them all the way down the line, or expect people to call BS on you.

Yes, the bakery owner is within his legal rights to refuse service. And yes, the gay couple is within their legal rights to sue if they don't agree. It's up to a judge to rule on it. The gay couple will probably lose, and they most likely know that going in. As Benevolent Heretic said, they are probably doing this to raise awareness on the issue.