Woman Fatally Shot by Police at Cosco Handing Out Pizza Samples.

Originally posted by PhyberDragon1
reply to post by flyswatter

 

"once the choice to pull the trigger is made, it should absolutely be a shot to kill, and that goes for anyone, not just cops."

Use of force should be used to either: dissuade her from a particular course of action, or to physically intervene to stop her and should only use the amount of force necessary to control the incident, effect an arrest, or protect themselves or others from harm or death. That is, other levels of force must have been attempted first unless lethal force is the only way to minimize loss of life. That is to say, they should have used negotiation or other "conflict resolution" techniques. If she refused to desist, or attempts to flee, progress from verbal orders, through to physical restraint, up to wounding or injuring her, if possible. If it was not possible, then and only then, use lethal force. Killing her can only be justified if there was sufficient evidence to suggest that it was reasonable to believe that she posed an imminent threat to the life or well-being of another. If there was an alternative, then, there was no imminent threat requiring killing her. Short of that, if one just shoots to kill every time they pull a gun, instead of seeking a more least restrictive alternative first, like some other method to resolve the situation that doesn't require the gun or shooting to wound or injure, instead of just killing, if it did require the gun, then, maybe, that person lacks skills and good judgement and should not have a gun. And, perhaps, their state of mind should be evaluated and they should possibly be removed from society. Additionally, if ones intent is to kill and nothing else when they pull a gun and that can be proven (like comments they may make online or elsewhere), then, they might be charged for murder with intent to kill -- cop or otherwise.

Starship Captain, James T. Kirk: Ah! We come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill;
we come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, men. -- Star Trekkin', The Firm

Sources of info:
www.nij.gov...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 3-6-2013 by PhyberDragon1 because: additional info

The decision point of pulling the trigger is after the point of verbal requests, verbal warnings, and non-lethal use of force. The line you quoted out of my post has nothing to do with the use of force being justified or not; it deals with the end goal of what should be the final course of action in any confrontation. What you posted after my quote dealt with everything up to and including the pulling of the gun. We're speaking of two different issues here.

Originally posted by Maverick7
You act as though the cops were just sitting around enjoying a donut and a knife waving Viking berserker woman descended upon them.

Umm no, Your confused and misled self decided to make that reckless assumption.

No, they had ample warning, ample time to get geared up and ample time to respond in a large overwhelming force. After all keeping other COSTCO customers safe was clearly NOT their priority. They didn't even clear the store. They RUSHED in, being heroic discovered that a 5'3, 38 yo woman provoked unreasoning fear in ONE of them and he shot her five times, as though she was a charging rhinoceros.

More reckless assumptions, because you were not present at the scene now were you?

His partner clearly did not panic, he didn't shoot her at all.

Could it be because he already pulled out his taser, you think, maybe huh? ~$heopleNation

Originally posted by TheMagus
1-translation: i don't really give a shizzle, but will sociop*COUGH* "sanely" pretend to
2-this cop "hater"* lives in jurisdiction, where as of january past, police follow a policy of shoot to kill at the least sign of resistance resistance includes raising your voice, arguing, or making any sudden moves

ROFL

as of january past, i have a policy of my own, to be applied at the least sign of initialization of force, which includes intentionally invading my personal space to trigger fight/flight reactions. the local cops have been apprised of this, none have seen fit to call my "bluff" as of yet. [keyboard "tough" guys need not apply.]

*one only hates that which one fears

3-not even going to debate this one, as it is merely a projection of police-think,[oxymoron, I know] not everyone is a shivering, cowardly, sociopa*COUGH* Defender of the "Sane Society" with a trigger finger starting at their own shadow. never mind the extremely offensive projection of lackadaisical carelessness regarding the security of ones children in public.

4-tragedy indeed for the murder victim and her loved ones, especially her kids, who will then have salt rubbed in the wounds in terms of seeing accountability and justice.
for her killer, [and accomplice] it's a career milestone, followed by raises in rank and pay,
hence a comedy.

What the hell are you rambling about? Translated = Dysfunction junction.

Like I said before, it's a shame that this women had to lose her life. However, you can't go waving a knife around in a threatening manner in a public place like Costco that is usually packed with people where you're basically tripping over them. You were not at the scene, you were not there to see what went occured.

If you don't like my opinion, too bad because opinions are what we give here at ATS. One day you might come to understand that is the way it works around here. Good Luck! ~$heopleNation

Why are so many men so vicious toward women??? Don't they have mothers? Isn't it possible that the lady had those items in her hands because it was her job to have those items in her hands? She was justifiably upset. Who wouldn't be upset if they are passing out samples of product, hoping to get a commission from the sale of the product and the store is out of stock? Why would she want to pass out product that a customer couldn't purchase? Maybe, she was finally fed up with listening to the customers complain and felt she needed to voice her frustration. Why do so many men now a days seem to feel so threatened by a woman voicing her frustration? In her attempt to tell her side of the story, she forgot she had those items in her hands and for that she was viciously gunned her down in cold blood. It is a very scary time to be a woman. Who will protect us from our protectors?

reply to post by ladytamatha


I don't believe that this incident had anything to do with her being a Women at all whatsoever. However, I do 100% agree that SOME Men treat Women very, very cruely. What we need are much harsher penalties for the creeps who harm Women. ~$heopleNation

reply to post by SheopleNation

Thank you for responding to my post, SheopleNation. I really appreciate hearing from you. You seem like one of the GOOD guys and I can't begin to tell you how nice it is to meet you here in the spirit world of ATS.
You're probably right. Maybe, it didn't have anything to do with her being a woman. But I can't help wonder, if those men had even tried to listen to her side of the story, maybe she would still be alive today. Just about every single girlfriend I have has had the holy crud knocked out of them by their spouses or boyfriends. One of my girlfriends happens to be an X-Victoria Secret Model until her jealous Doctor boyfriend nearly broke every bone in her body. He initially wanted to date her because she was gorgeous, sweet, famous and beautiful. When they started dating, he began to hate her because she was beautiful and successful. The very thing that attracted him to her was the very thing he tried to destroy her for? He didn't like other men looking at her and blamed her when they did. The more she tried to reason with him, the more enraged he would become. He wanted all the attention and felt like she was stealing his show. She spent two years recovering from the brutal beating she took with the mans baseball bat. The coward had to use a weapon. He put the poor girl in a coma! They didn't think she would live. She still has the scars from the beating and the numerous surgeries she had to undergo to get her body back together. Her career is over. Her self esteem is shot. Although, she is still beautiful and lovely, on the inside and on the outside, she will never have the confidence she once had and she will never trust again. HE GOT OFF SCOT FREE. He had lot's of money and he was able to buy his way out of his assault charges. Meanwhile, my girlfriend can hardly walk. He should have been brought up on attempted murder charges but alas... He is free to harm another. I agree with you that it is only SOME MEN that are capable of doing such harm to the weaker sex but it seems like their numbers are growing. We women, look to men to love and protect us. We NEED YOU TO LOVE AND PROTECT US... We count on you as men and the dominant sex to love and protect us. Part of loving a woman is listening to her, even when, what she has to say, makes you feel uncomfortable. Seem like so many men now a days would rather beat us up to shut us up. This article seemed to me, to be another case of STFU OR ELSE. She wouldn't shut up so they made her shut up for good. I know I'm probably going to get hammered for saying these things but I bet ya, just about every woman who has dealt with that sort of attitude from SOME MEN will agree... Some men can't handle it when a woman speaks her peace. It makes them flip out. They justify their monstrous behavior by saying things like: She was just another loud mouthed Biotch that wouldn't shut up so she got what she deserved. When they get off the hook, it only reinforces unjustified right to be monsters and the behavior is repeated. I know all men aren't like that. My brothers don't beat their wives. My step dad doesn't beat my mom and they never have so I know there are good men out there. That being said, I believe YOU SheopleNation are one of the GOOD GUYS. Thanks again for your reply. I'm delighted to meet a GOOD MAN here on ATS. Cheers!

Originally posted by opethPA

Originally posted by AmmonSeth
Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal.
These are principles that every man of every faith can embrace.

NEVER is it acceptable to kill someone,
The fact that American police swan about with guns all the time is absurd
If they cannot police people through the use of reason and respect,
Then they are NOT police. They are just licensed murderers.

Take firearms away from the many!!

They are a war machine and have no place in villages, towns, cities etc.

Shame on all of you who try to justify murdering your fellow man.

Good luck living in a fantasy world.

And yet nearly the entire populace of the modern civilised world arent 'policed' by firearms,

Respect and common decency go a LONG way,

The fact that most people replying seem to think its FINE to murder someone is beyond warped....

There was also someone saying the only way to stop murders is to give everyone guns?!?!
What the holy hell was he smoking when he wrote that?!

Jesus people, Murder is WRONG! whether its a 'legal' murder or not!

Granted there may be some ridiculous situations that will never happen to 99% of the population,
Which you may be left with no choice than to do something drastic...
I.E some maniac trying to beat you to death, so your only option is to knock them unconscious etc.

The rest of the time, Be respectful, Decent, Understanding and if that doesnt work you always have the option to walk away. Failing that call the police (real police, not american police, seeing as its clear they need to sort their entire populace's views on murdering people and justice system out first) and let them with their advanced training in these situations defuse it safely without people getting seriously harmed or murdered

As I said in a previous post, Many many years ago I was once witness to a woman threatening CHILDREN with a knife and was privy to see the police response (in the U.K)
They showed up in fair numbers (no armed police necessary), one dog-unit responded specially,
They spoke to the woman calmly and decently explaining the situation and why they were called,
They tried to find out what was going on but unfortunately as was the case the woman was being uncooperative,
So the Dog-Handler assumed control and told her that she needed to put the knife on the ground calmly or he was going to release his german shepherd on her.

She put the knife down, No one was harmed, Situation over
No murders necessary

Murders are still a rare thing in the U.K, so all that arguing over "there will be more murders if you make guns illegal" etc. etc. are simply un true, Sure there are the occasional proper sicko's like in woolwich recently,
But besides that, Its a pretty nice and safe place to live

In 2010 in the U.S there were 14,748 recorded homicides...
In 2011 in the U.K there were 619 recorded homicides...

Way to go america, you had FOURTEEN THOUSAND more murders than the U.K,
But you obviously have nothing to learn from here and of course your opinions about legal murders are perfectly justified :')

Oh and to put that in perspective given that yes you do have a larger population,
The U.S has a population of 314million, the U.K has a population of 62 million,
So the U.S population is roughly 5 times larger,

Apply that to the recorded murders, 619 x 5 = 3,095, That would still be ELEVEN THOUSAND fewer murders even with an equally scaled population

Stop being so arrogant that you're right, The U.K is NOT perfect by any means,
But can you (americans) imagine living in a country where murder is a RARE occurance?
Can you imagine how much safer you would feel knowing that you're country only suffered 3,095 murders rather than FOURTEEN THOUSAND?

*rant over*

Originally posted by ladytamatha
Why are so many men so vicious toward women??? Don't they have mothers? Isn't it possible that the lady had those items in her hands because it was her job to have those items in her hands? She was justifiably upset. Who wouldn't be upset if they are passing out samples of product, hoping to get a commission from the sale of the product and the store is out of stock? Why would she want to pass out product that a customer couldn't purchase? Maybe, she was finally fed up with listening to the customers complain and felt she needed to voice her frustration. Why do so many men now a days seem to feel so threatened by a woman voicing her frustration? In her attempt to tell her side of the story, she forgot she had those items in her hands and for that she was viciously gunned her down in cold blood. It is a very scary time to be a woman. Who will protect us from our protectors?

did you read the articles, she grabbed a knife from someone elses stand and was saying crazy things, they called the cops, people stampeded out of the costco

here is what I posted earlier

here is some info

the dead woman , mhai scott, was 38 and the divorced mother of 2 girls, ages 8 and 12

ashburn.patch.com...



Renee Haber, a front end manager at the store near the busy intersection of Cascades Parkway and Route 7, told the Post the incident began with the woman grabbed a knife from another station and was making “strange movements” while making "crazy" comments

“She was frightening her supervisor,” Haber told the paper. She said workers there called police

the cop who fired the shots and the cop that was injured are on administrative leave while this is investigated.

Thank you for responding. Yes, I did read the article. I admit, I read the article on a different conspiracy web site. To my knowledge, the information you have provided was not mentioned on the other site. I didn't read ANYTHING about the lady taking the knife away from someone else. The article I read, stated she already had the utensils in her hands due to her job description. Yes, they mentioned that she was really upset and someone called the police. The article mentioned that the police opened fire with shoppers still in the store and how shocked they were that the police would open fire with so many shoppers in the area. Truth be told, I wasn't there so I don't know what the truth might be.

I'm old enough to remember a time in our country when things like this just wouldn't happen. There has been a change in this country. In the old days lethal use of force was a last resort. Now a days it seems like our society has become, shoot first and ask questions later. I for one, don't want to fear my protectors. I want to honor them and see them as the HERO'S I grew up to believe they are. As a woman, this article and the other article where the woman was beaten black and blue, by men dressed, in black and blue, concerns me. Lethal force should always be a last resort. Why didn't they taze her? Pepper spray her? Anything other then kill her? Life is a very precious gift to all of us. How did it become seen as being so cheap?