Woman Fatally Shot by Police at Cosco Handing Out Pizza Samples.

reply to post by roadgravel


Pretty much. Police academy is a joke. And after that there is no more training. Some agencies do a couple of riot training days or mandatory medical training but nothing that would come close to preparing a person to deal with these situations. For the most part being a police officer is about donning the responsibility of what the public expects of them which is not even close to what they are prepared for. Police often get a bad rep because they have a lot of inexperienced people who just want to skate by. I wish there were an elite tier of police that had much more requirements. Maybe call them mobile judges. That would be awesome... ok Im going off on a tangent.

Originally posted by MongusePro

Originally posted by Dynamike

Originally posted by MongusePro
reply to post by intrepid

 

There's no excuse for an execution style shot and besides it's cosco i doubt this lady was given a blade of any significance due to H&S .. these guys are trained (or used to be) to disarm not to kill outright.

Nope. Police do not get trained to disarm knives. They get trained to stay 15 feet away from a suspect armed with a knife as body Armor is ineffective, not to mention the arteries in the arms and neck are exposed. They also get trained to shoot and kill if the suspect does not comply with commands and is seen as a threat to themselves or others. What if this suspect took another innocent as a hostage holding the knife to their throat?

I don't know about you but I wouldn't trust another person with a head shot under the following circumstances : the officers are stressed and experience tunnel vision. They probably only shoot 50 rounds a year at the annual quals as required by their state. So with that in mind, they probably made the best choice.

As far as the tazer goes it is rarely effective. Sometimes a probe goes wandering off too far in one direction or loose clothing doesn't let the probe contact the skin, and a lot of times the wire gets broke after a few seconds of cycling the current. After the current is done the suspect is back to normal and still armed. And a surprisingly lot of times the battery takes a dump out of no where.

I stopped using pepper spray as I have fair skin and light eyes and it generally affects me much worse than the suspect. I got a son to go home to so I won't take that chance.

Last but not least is the Baton. Yeah right. You can thank Rodney King for making the Baton completely unusable. Never have and never will use it. Sorry, I'm not getting sued.

And there you have it. You want officers to be more effective? Buy them knife proof Armor. Give them the million dollar toys batman had. By the way there is no effective Armor against rifles, those cut through body Armor like butter. So if America wants to spend billions of dollars on new gear and training so cops can spare a few lives of knife wielding mental subjects a year have at it. But for now the training is two weeks in defensive tactics and two weeks in firearms crash course training and bam you have yourself a fully equipped officer. Now get out there and make that $20/hr count!

Thanks for the contribution...

You see this is my quarrel... 'get new gear & spend money'. No sorry have to disagree. Go back to the days were police were willing to put there own lives on the line to protect those around them.

I know it's largely not the policeman's fault as these days they have a wall of H&S and paperwork to get through that previously wasn't a burden.

New equipment and the works is all good and well but it's no substitute for bravery and fine police work. Despite all the great info this thread has received from members i'm sticking to my original position. I.e this could have been dealt with better.

The gear request was kind of a joke. Its unfeasible much like my point that officers have any other option to execute in this situation. I wont defend fully what they did because there are so many factors and circumstances that are not depicted and because of that neither of us can really be confident in the sides we take. But I wanted to portray the options given to most officers by their agencies based on training so you could understand why it would be a considerable choice for an officer to use deadly force in this situation.

reply to post by Jefferton



Are you telling me that a couple cops big burly cops with body armor are not going to be able to take down and subdue a lady with a knife? LAME!! I cannot see where there was any need for force of that nature in this case. You pepper spray her and get the knife from her hands that is that.

reply to post by opethPA


The woman is barely 5 feet tall and if i can assume her weight was only around 70kg! Wow, it's just like beating up a kid senselessly by 2 thugs barely half their height but this woman got 5 bullets instead!

Originally posted by dubiousone

Originally posted by flyswatter

None of us can really comment on the exact circumstances, but we can assume that there was at least a perceived threat to great/grave bodily harm. Told to drop weapon, she refused. Shot with taser, and this did not work (we dont know if the taser itself didnt function or if it simply had no effect on her). Still came at cop with knife, she gets shot.

Yes, it had to be a kill shot. If someone is pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger, they better damn well be shooting center mass, for multiple reasons that have all been stated throughout this thread. If I point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, you damn well better believe that I am shooting to kill, and by the time we've gotten to that point, I've got a VERY good reason to do so, because it wouldnt happen otherwise.

No, it did not have to be a kill shot. It did not have to be a shot at all. Nice try at justifying yet another of law enforcement's unjustified incidents of lethal deadly force.

That is what happens when they send an unresourceful unimaginative and probably physically unfit cop to deal with a difficult situation. The police department should never send a single solution cop to a situation like that. Give me a baseball bat, a 2x4, an 8 foot length of garden hose, some heavy rope, or any variety of heavy objects that could be thrown at her, and a can of bug spray, and I could defuse that situation in a couple of minutes if the only available solutions involved use of force which, I believe, was not the case there. Yes, I'd cause her some pain but she would fully recover. I'm 62 years old and probably more physically and mentally fit than both those cops combined. There's something seriously wrong with that police department's hiring and training program when judged from what occurred in that scenario.

edit on 6/3/2013 by dubiousone because: Capitalization. Grammar. Removed the word "stupid" from reference to the cop.

Ok, regardless of the justification on the use of force in the first place ... once the choice to pull the trigger is made, it should absolutely be a shot to kill, and that goes for anyone, not just cops. If you're trying to wing a person with a shot, then you shouldnt be using a firearm in the first place. The only time that a trigger should ever be pulled is when an immediate end to a situation is needed.

reply to post by Dynamike


Pretty much this, at least for regular officers anyways, it was this way in both of the states I worked in.

There are a few exceptions, such as twig pigs *ahem* I mean the D-CON guys *ahem* I mean the Dept. of Natural Resources officers - those guys have to re-up their training every year in my state.

Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal.
These are principles that every man of every faith can embrace.

NEVER is it acceptable to kill someone,
The fact that American police swan about with guns all the time is absurd
If they cannot police people through the use of reason and respect,
Then they are NOT police. They are just licensed murderers.

Take firearms away from the many!!

They are a war machine and have no place in villages, towns, cities etc.

Shame on all of you who try to justify murdering your fellow man.

Double post

Originally posted by Soloprotocol
Yip... Scissors and a knife = dangerous weapons...Pizza cutter = rubbish weapon..

I'm sure the cops know what they are doing...

No...just to clear up a few things here as people seem to be disregarding facts to fit the "police state" theme.

When they say the tazer did not work, they mean ...the tazer worked, but she kept comming at them.

Also...it was not a Pizza Cutter...this woman lost it and went as far to grab a knife from another woman working there.

This woman was either on drugs or had a psychotic break. She was angry, saying nonsensical, crazy things. Freaked out about the "number of servings" on the Pizza box. Threatened everyone, grabbed a knife from another woman working a different area...went after the cops when they arrived...and kept comming at them despite the tazer.

Everybody can play the hindsight 20-20 game and say they should have done it differently...what if the cops used two tazers? What if the cop had been expertly trained to disarm insane knife attackers who do not respond to reason or tazors...yada..yada...

Maybe...just maybe it's just possible that the cops didn't want to shoot this woman? They chose to try the tazor first? Perhaps the scenario was such where if they didn't fire, she would have stabbed someone? Perhaps fatally?

and used a Taser to try to subdue the woman, Loudoun Sheriff Michael Chapman said. But the woman kept advancing, so one of the deputies fired at her and killed her, the sheriff said.

She said Scott, who had been serving pizza, began saying “crazy things” and seemed concerned about the number of servings in a pizza box.

As Scott was moving away from her serving station, Haber said, she grabbed a knife from another station and was making “strange movements.”

“She was frightening her supervisor,” Haber said. Haber said workers called police.

The first deputies arrived at the store just after 3 p.m., Chapman said. When they encountered Scott near the rear of the store, she was armed with a knife and might also have had scissors, he said.

articles.washingtonpost.com...

Originally posted by AmmonSeth
Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal.
These are principles that every man of every faith can embrace.

NEVER is it acceptable to kill someone,

NEVER?...Hmmm...Even if non-lethal defenses fail to stop the insane person trying to kill you or your partner?

It is better to die at the hands of someone itnent on killing you than to defend yourself? Or to allow them to kill others?

reply to post by Indigo5

Weird, we agree on something.

This Monday is going to make me crazy yet.

reply to post by flyswatter


"once the choice to pull the trigger is made, it should absolutely be a shot to kill, and that goes for anyone, not just cops."

Use of force should be used to either: dissuade her from a particular course of action, or to physically intervene to stop her and should only use the amount of force necessary to control the incident, effect an arrest, or protect themselves or others from harm or death. That is, other levels of force must have been attempted first unless lethal force is the only way to minimize loss of life. That is to say, they should have used negotiation or other "conflict resolution" techniques. If she refused to desist, or attempts to flee, progress from verbal orders, through to physical restraint, up to wounding or injuring her, if possible. If it was not possible, then and only then, use lethal force. Killing her can only be justified if there was sufficient evidence to suggest that it was reasonable to believe that she posed an imminent threat to the life or well-being of another. If there was an alternative, then, there was no imminent threat requiring killing her. Short of that, if one just shoots to kill every time they pull a gun, instead of seeking a more least restrictive alternative first, like some other method to resolve the situation that doesn't require the gun or shooting to wound or injure, instead of just killing, if it did require the gun, then, maybe, that person lacks skills and good judgement and should not have a gun. And, perhaps, their state of mind should be evaluated and they should possibly be removed from society. Additionally, if ones intent is to kill and nothing else when they pull a gun and that can be proven (like comments they may make online or elsewhere), then, they might be charged for murder with intent to kill -- cop or otherwise.

Starship Captain, James T. Kirk: Ah! We come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill;
we come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, men. -- Star Trekkin', The Firm

Sources of info:
www.nij.gov...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by AmmonSeth
Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal.
These are principles that every man of every faith can embrace.

NEVER is it acceptable to kill someone,
The fact that American police swan about with guns all the time is absurd
If they cannot police people through the use of reason and respect,
Then they are NOT police. They are just licensed murderers.

Take firearms away from the many!!

They are a war machine and have no place in villages, towns, cities etc.

Shame on all of you who try to justify murdering your fellow man.

Ideally you are right.. in reality taking fire arms away from the many makes it more powerful in the hands of the few.. and those few who hang on to weapons are the ones willing to use it for their selfish means.

I don't like guns, i don't like disease, I don't like death but it is just something I have grown to accept as I have grown up. They exist for a reason. whether it is a good one or bad one in my eyes they still exist and my feelings about it is not going to change that.

There are many that agree with your view on guns. People who think they do not belong in cities and villages.. people who think that no one should die for any reason... and those that want to make war and chaos in cities and villages and those who think people should die for their reasons. the less guns there are the more powerful the gun are in their hands.. so it is in their favor if guns are scarce.

I don't own a gun.. I know how to use one but i chose not to have one as i do not deem it necessary in my current situation. However others live in different situations and if they feel they should have one.. i think they have the right to protect themselves.

Legislation will never stop murders, they never will. Laws cannot change the hearts of people. Never can and never will. Going after an object is not going to change things. the demand for a gun should be diminished. Not by fear but by teaching people to have respect for the lives of others. If you can put that into people as they grow up they will pass it on and it will spread and eventually the need for a gun will become obsolete and guns will naturally disappear.

the chances of that happening are nil so there is no point in banning guns because man has a fallen nature.

Deal with it or continue living like a child.

Originally posted by AmmonSeth
Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal.
These are principles that every man of every faith can embrace.

NEVER is it acceptable to kill someone,
The fact that American police swan about with guns all the time is absurd
If they cannot police people through the use of reason and respect,
Then they are NOT police. They are just licensed murderers.

Take firearms away from the many!!

They are a war machine and have no place in villages, towns, cities etc.

Shame on all of you who try to justify murdering your fellow man.

Good luck living in a fantasy world.
I neither support no am I against owning guns so the following is just said as a neutral observer.

You can take all the guns away and people will still be murdered.
You can take all the knives away and people will still be murdered.
Until you remove the element of humanity that has no issue with killing none of it matters.
As their is no way to do that , this is the reality we all live in. Their will always be a chance that someone goes crazy or has some other reason and attacks you or your family with their hands/knives/guns/whatever.

reply to post by AmmonSeth

AmmonSeth writes:

"Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles that every man of every faith can embrace. NEVER is it acceptable to kill someone, The fact that American police swan about with guns all the time is absurd If they cannot police people through the use of reason and respect, Then they are NOT police. They are just licensed murderers. Take firearms away from the many!! They are a war machine and have no place in villages, towns, cities etc. Shame on all of you who try to justify murdering your fellow man."

Here are my thoughts:

People like point to the nut with the gun killing people and say, "See, we don't need to have guns," but, I see the lack of guns as the reason for the nut with the gun. If more people had guns, then, the nuts would probably get shot if they couldn't be dealt with any other way. Maybe, it would be said that "If you arm people, then, the nuts with the guns won't have to shoot people as they will shoot each other," although, I would imagine millions of gun owners didn't shoot someone today.

In the Old West everyone had guns and murder was so unheard of that horse thieves and daylight bank robbers were made famous. They would never make headlines today, now that we have gun control. Taking away guns made the thieves and robbers too numerous to stand out in the headlines. If you were a bad guy with a gun and I put a sign in front of my house warning we were armed, but, our neighbors weren't and that we promised not to use our weapons to defend them, which house would you enter? If police entered communities where everyone were armed, would they go in shooting or use respect and reason first? There are lawmakers for and against guns and the arguments on both sides are compelling, but, no matter which side the lawmaker is on, they have armed security and it seems to be working for them.

In an ideal world we would only have tools and not weapons, there would be no killing, raping, stealing, etc., but, until then, I'd keep a gun or some other weapon, nearby, otherwise, the only advice I can give someone is: If you can grab it, you can use it. If you don't, that's on you.

reply to post by MongusePro[

edit on 3-6-2013 by Apollo7 because: (no reason given)