How many of you are really prepared for the Dog Eat Dog society you relish and preach on this site?

Originally posted by supremecommander

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by crazyewok
So if you are poor and born with nothing though?

That is such a cowardly cop-out There are hundreds of people that are wealthy and successful that grew up poor. See, I believe in people, you don't .

Bollocks. The chances of someone growing up dirt poor becoming rich and wealthy are slim to none. Where are you pulling this stuff from?

clearly not from reality.

And I agree with you on the flat tax. I just don't mind contributing my fair share to the overall good of this society that I have benefited from. It's hard for selfish people to understand that.

Go do a simple search of this.
You are flat our wrong.
Not being from here, I don't hold it against you, as I am sure it is never shown to others.
People do it every day here in the US.

Originally posted by macman

Im not saying the rich are responsible for the poor. What Im saying is they dont seem to be responsible at all! And if Mr Banker delibratly screws up and thousands lose there jobs then Mr Banker is then responsible as he caused that cock up not the people under him!


So, to then blanket statement that the "rich" need to do more is not accurate.
How about going by each incident and each example.

I dont know when I made the blanket statement but sorry for the confusion. I should have said SOME rich are responsible due to negligance actions.

Originally posted by macman
No, you are putting limitations on it.
10% flat for everyone.

Ok flat tax for law abiding citizens.

Originally posted by macman
Loans should not be backed by the Govt, nor approved by nor funded by nor run by.

why not? What wrong with a no intrest no stress loan? Its a LOAN it still has to be payed back. If you dont accept welfare, education or Medical help its not like you have to pay for it.

why does a Loan have to be high intrest stressfull thing? Why?

Originally posted by macman
Welfare for most is a scam.

To be honnest I agree to many people at the moment abuse it.

Originally posted by macman
For work related items, 6 months should be all that there is. Otherwise, it is just stealing from those with a job to give to those that don't have one.

Sounds resonable but I would make the time adjustible incase of bad a economic down turn. 6 months should be adverage, if a labour shortage 1 month if a depression 1 year.

Originally posted by macman
Nothing is free.
Something still needs to be done. There are many groups that will employee the mentally handicap or blind, and provide them with a wage or what have you.

It should be a case by case thing really descided by independant doctors.

Originally posted by macman
No, abousulty not. It is no one else's money except the families. That money was already taxed, to tax it again is double theft. Who cares if they live off their parents money.

Well anyone who is poor and has to work like hell just to fed there familiys. What did the son of a Banker do to earn that money? Nothing his dad did and when dady dies why does that kid have anymore right than anyone else unless that kid is working in the same business? Ok I admitt this is contraversial....... But it levels the playing field in some ways and forces persoanl responsibility.

Originally posted by macman
No, rich, poor, middle, all should pay 10%.

And I agree to some extent. But if anyone WILLINGLY opts for social support then why not charge then a little more to cover there costs? If a super rich person royal screws up in a neglagance or illegal maner then why should ge get off scot free with his multi million £ pension? If a Banker has lost billions due to fraud or neglagance why should they get that million £ bonous while there staff are being layed off?




As for why you taxes are high its not because of welfare. It its like the UK its cause of bad/ corrupt accounting, unnecessarily high bureaucracy, large military/ security complex. foreign aid and bailing out banks.

If you removed all that im guessing you could cut your taxes down to 10% without turning into a mad max dog eat dog like society.

Originally posted by macman

Not being from here, I don't hold it against you, as I am sure it is never shown to others.
People do it every day here in the US.

People do it here everyday in the UK too. Richard Bransen , Allen sugar ect

But they still attended at least secoundary (what you call high school) and learnt how to count, read and write.

We also have many sceintists and Doctors who have come from the bottom or humble backgrounds and are now contributing not just to the UK but the world, but they too needed those student loans (which have been paid back).
Infact student loans can be seen as a investment for these people.

Originally posted by crazyewok

I dont know when I made the blanket statement but sorry for the confusion. I should have said SOME rich are responsible due to negligance actions.

No worries.

Originally posted by crazyewok

Ok flat tax for law abiding citizens.

I agree

Originally posted by crazyewok
why not? What wrong with a no intrest no stress loan? Its a LOAN it still has to be payed back. If you dont accept welfare, education or Medical help its not like you have to pay for it.

What the Govt gives and controls, it can take away. The Govt has no business in loaning tax dollars out, to people or companies.

Originally posted by crazyewok
To be honnest I agree to many people at the moment abuse it.

Yes.

Originally posted by crazyewok
Sounds resonable but I would make the time adjustible incase of bad a economic down turn. 6 months should be adverage, if a labour shortage 1 month if a depression 1 year.

Not how I see it.
If there are exceptions made now then more will follow. The Govt is a greedy hungry pig that doesn't stop.

Originally posted by crazyewok
It should be a case by case thing really descided by independant doctors.

Yes.

Originally posted by crazyewok
Well anyone who is poor and has to work like hell just to fed there familiys. What did the son of a Banker do to earn that money? Nothing his dad did and when dady dies why does that kid have anymore right than anyone else unless that kid is working in the same business? Ok I admitt this is contraversial....... But it levels the playing field in some ways and forces persoanl responsibility.

Why does it matter if the kid earned it or not. It is not the role of Govt to take from them, in order for them to earn. No, it doesn't level anything. It takes from someone in an attempt to make things "just".

Originally posted by crazyewok

And I agree to some extent. But if anyone WILLINGLY opts for social support then why not charge then a little more to cover there costs? If a super rich person royal screws up in a neglagance or illegal maner then why should ge get off scot free with his multi million £ pension? If a Banker has lost billions due to fraud or neglagance why should they get that million £ bonous while there staff are being layed off?

If a person pays into it, they get out. No need for extra costs.
Flat 10% for everyone.

Originally posted by crazyewok
As for why you taxes are high its not because of welfare. It its like the UK its cause of bad/ corrupt accounting, unnecessarily high bureaucracy, large military/ security complex. foreign aid and bailing out banks.

If you removed all that im guessing you could cut your taxes down to 10% without turning into a mad max dog eat dog like society.

Taxes are high because the voter has been voting themselves money, because the politician wants to keep control and in power.

reply to post by crazyewok

People do it here every day.
There are many wealthy people here that never went to college.

Originally posted by macman
. The Govt has no business in loaning tax dollars out, to people or companies.

But it works and no one is forced to do it? If you dont want it dont have it. Its not like your the one who is paying for it, only the ones who WILLINGLY opt in to it. So if you want to be 100% free of any govement schems you are free too. I can assure you they dont put guns to students heads and make them take loans here .
As long as you dont have to pay for it why should it bother you if other people choice to take this little bit of help?

Originally posted by macman
If a person pays into it, they get out. No need for extra costs.
Flat 10% for everyone.

So if a Banker poilitican or anyone with power over the econemy royaly screw up due to illegal or delibrate miss managment should be able to keep all there money/assets and multi million pound pensions? Thats like letting a drug kingpin or mafia boss keep there illegal earnings?

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by crazyewok

 

People do it here every day.
There are many wealthy people here that never went to college.

Same here we have loads. And most entrepreneur dont have a privlaged background or college education!

But not everyone talents are the same. Some talents require a uni degree like doctors, Lawyer , scientist ect

A doctor or Scientist wont nessarly have the skills to be a buisness owner or entrepreneur ect Without that degree there talents are wasted.

reply to post by macman


People do it often, although it comes from the size of the population, not from the opportunities. In USA opportunities, especially good education, costs money. For an average IQ person from poor family getting a good education ends up with extreme debts or is even unaffordable. For an average-IQ person from a rich family getting a good education is easier, as parents pay for it. Is that everybody having equal opportunities? In most EU countries poor people have equal opportunities with richer people, although in US parents´ money matters.

That is something that here in EU, many countries see as not equal opportunities. For example in the country I live it is believed money should not dictate one´s education. Whether you are poor or rich, you have the same opportunity of getting education. Money can not buy better schools. Private schools are not allowed, as these would weaken the public school system. Public schools on the other hand are strong. If private schools were made these would have to be some of the best in the world, in order to have "market", otherwise nobody would pay for them as public schools are strong enough. Universities go for smart people. Money can not buy you good higher education, only your mind can get it. A smarter person has high advantage over somebody who is willing to pay for the education, but is not so smart.

Some people are born naturally smart, especially in entrepreneurship, although many do not have such thinking naturally. They need to learn somewhere. These who are naturally smart, succeed anyways with university education or without. Those who have it not naturally need to learn it somewhere.

On average, it is easier to make it in other countries than US due to money not dictating one´s education opportunities and education matters a lot, especially for those who do not have the necessary skills naturally.

^ what he said^

Though in UK we still have private Primary and High schools

For me Education is the one thing that should be universal to allow everyone a equal footing.



BTW macman have you ever visted any EU countrys? Good ones like UK, Germany or better yet Demark or Norway?

Not saying you should want to live there but just vist and see how the otherside do things and see things are not falling appart or 3rd world like and still have absolute monarchs like the US media Makes it out to be.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Look, take what the government gives.

I don't care.

My only point was that people who DON'T rely on government are going to be in better shape when the government implodes.

We all depend on the government...as long as humans are social we will depend on government. If we lived in a tribe of 30 people there will STILL be a government.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by supremecommander

 

Just because I call it as I see it doesn't mean that I lie about what I give. I could really care less if you believe me or not. I give because I know it is right. Not for the acceptance of someone like you.

Hey, your views are progressive. If it walks like a duck and quacks, then it must be a duck.

If not correct, then by all means, do tell.

I notice you show disdain for the word "progressive"? Are you in to recessive?

Originally posted by Nicks87

Originally posted by DZAG Wright
I sense a certain attitude in many posts here at ATS. It's an attitude that shows no sympathy for those viewed as lesser than yourselves.

Many feel that the homeless, welfare, drug addicts, and other bottom of the barrel people are getting what they deserve and shouldn't be a drain on the rest of society.

What you are preaching and asking for is a dog eat dog world. A devolution from our civilized society. You wish to return to when everyone cared for just their immediate family and damn everyone else.

Why do so many wish to return to such a time?

I ask are all of you (who will probably be too shame to post in this thread) REALLY built for such a society? I don't think so, you actually want a society that's half civilized and half savage. Especially when it comes to yourselves.

How many of you are young, strong and trained to survive in such a savage society? I'd wager that there is a percentage who spew they want such a society but they would be among the first to expire should we return to such savagery!

Many of you speaking of all this heartlessness are out of shape and may even have disabilities. You would be among the FIRST to expire. You should want this society to be as civilized as possible. You are all hypocrites!

What is the point of this thread? To scare people into capitulating to the corrupt system?

Are you afraid that if western society collapses YOU will be the one that is starving and struggling to survive?

I say survival of the fittest! I think thats what this world needs, a chance for the weak members of the herd to be weeded out and for the corrupt slime at the top to face the consequences of pushing their tyrannical agendas. I'm sick of these bankers and corporations and politicians that hide behind lawyers and body guards and police.

It's time for bigger ideas than central govt. and time to get rid of social/tax systems where only those at the top and at the bottom reap the rewards.

Actually I'm a wolf so I'l do just fine...

Are you the fittest...were you dominant in sports? Do people flock to join your gang? Are you SURE you're one of the stronger members of this herd?

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

They are putting people in prison in Greece for nonpayment of taxes. Why should half the US pay zero taxes because they are poor and on food stamps but the other half get stuck with paying the welfare?
This is baloney man, and someday you might get it but I won't hold my breath.

This is easy...

If half the people have no money, and the other half has all of it, who has to foot whatever bill there is?

If I sit $100 dollars on a table of two and one guy grabs all $100...how is the other guy going to contribute for the table?

reply to post by crazyewok


After taxes some people choose to pay for education privately and you begrudge their freedom
of choice.

Where's that f****££g 100th monkey i'm getting desperate.

Originally posted by Nicks87

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

They are putting people in prison in Greece for nonpayment of taxes. Why should half the US pay zero taxes because they are poor and on food stamps but the other half get stuck with paying the welfare?
This is baloney man, and someday you might get it but I won't hold my breath.

They dont get it and out of fear they worship big govt because they think people cant survive without luxurys like TV and phones and cars. They need big govt to protect them and will give up even the most basic of rights (self-defense) to get that false sense of security that big govt gives them.

So you wish to return to colonial days when we all hunted squirrel and wore coonskin?

Of course we can, but why would we WANT to go backwards?

Originally posted by Simon_Boudreaux

Originally posted by DZAG Wright
Many feel that the homeless, welfare, drug addicts, and other bottom of the barrel people are getting what they deserve and shouldn't be a drain on the rest of society.

As opposed to being a drain on society? I live in a county where those same drains on society outnumber those of us that work by 3 to 1 atleast! I work two jobs and work about 70 hours a week. My wife works 40 hours a week. I rarely see my wife and kids and still struggle every single month to survive while those same drains on society you speak of sit on their asses all month, collect a free check, have their rent paid in full by H.U.D., are well fed thanks to foodstamps, and walk around in $130 shoes...all provided by people like me, my wife, and every other working person in this country so excuse me if I give a Sh!@ less about them!

Maybe your having two jobs is keeping someone else from having one? You don know jobs are not infinite? You're not up to date to know that there are no longer any free welfare checks. Walk around in $130 shoes...small luxuries for people who get no vacations and travel. If this world goes to #### you will be eaten by those same people you despise.

You wish to return to when everyone cared for just their immediate family and damn everyone else.

I'm already there! Have been for awhile.

Why do so many wish to return to such a time?

Because there was once a time when everyone pulled their weight and those that didn't perished. If you're injured or the provider for the family dies or becomes unable to work then the community stepped up and helped them out while they got through that hard time, not for the rest of their freakin lives. This once great nation of ours has turned into a bunch of fat assed moochers who think those of us that work should provide everything for them . If a dog eat dog savage society is the way to rid the world of people like this..then you're damn right I'm all for it!

Not really, our society has turned into a society where there are millions of people, but not millions of jobs. It turned to a society where certain people are disenfranchised and rather than grovel as I guess you and others feel they should, they make the best of their situations. Sick people like you call this living it up...because they aren't begging you and dying in the streets.

I ask are all of you (who will probably be too shame to post in this thread) REALLY built for such a society? I don't think so, you actually want a society that's half civilized and half savage. Especially when it comes to yourselves.

No one is really built for such a society. All one can do is keep in shape both mentally and physically and try your best to survive it. I do find comfort in the fact the useless will be the first to go.

How many of you are young, strong and trained to survive in such a savage society? I'd wager that there is a percentage who spew they want such a society but they would be among the first to expire should we return to such savagery!

Not sure what your idea of young is. I'm 40 and would wager I have a better chance of survival than someone younger and less experienced.

Actually many of them won't be the first to expire. While you are in your "me and mine" world, they have a large family of have-nots who will destroy your attitude and eat your family should the bottom drop out. You will be nothing but food and all your preppin will feed the people you despise. Those videos you watch where gangs of young men are being violent and you shake your head and call them animals...they will form huge gangs and go about TAKING what they want.

Many of you speaking of all this heartlessness are out of shape and may even have disabilities. You would be among the FIRST to expire. You should want this society to be as civilized as possible. You are all hypocrites!

Heartlessness? I don't see it as that. I see it as a necessity to happen so those of us that actually do something to contribute to a "civilized" society can actually have a prosperous one.

I don't think in all my years at ATS I've ever preached for a dog eat dog society but you can damn well believe I pray for it everyday.

You will be food...

Originally posted by Simon_Boudreaux

Originally posted by DZAG Wright
though the intent of this thread is to force the people who have no sympathy toward societies downtrodden to see their hypocracy.

Hypocrisy? So now it's hypocritical to be sick and tired of lazy people that can work but refuse to? It's hypocritical to be sick of being taxed to death to pay for these types of people? It's hypocritical to be sick and tired of all the people in this country who think they are entitled to be taken care of? It's hypocritical to be disgusted with people walking around in their pajamas everywhere they go because they're too lazy to even get dressed before they go out to blow that welfare check? Hate to tell you but the only hypocrisy I've seen so far in your thread is thinking we should have sympathy for people like this. If you're simply down on your luck and need a little help to get back on your feet that's one thing..but this cradle to the grave welfare state we seem to have become needs to be stopped.

How many people are actually too lazy to work? A very small number is the answer. I'm sure there are many that are beaten down from hearing "no" and being discriminated against and have thus given up. Nearly everyone will work if offered. Slave...no, but they will work. They do so anyway. It's a job just being poor and unemployed.

Originally posted by txinfidel
The irony of this thread is that the author is likely the one who is least prepared and this thread is still going on. Its not rocket science. The welfare state will run out of money or just get cut off thats what it was designed to do, but more importantly it was designed to bankrupt Americans who have earned their wealth and dry up the money to be spent by those who don't prepare....Yes the folks on welfare who buy flat screens and michael jordans and buy nice cars they cant afford and lobsters and steaks with their welfare.... Those are the people who don't prepare.... those are the people who we are preparing to defend ourselves against because we know that they shortsightedness is going to hit them like a freight train and they are the criminal element we are preparing to defend ourselves against.

I have had a few unlucky years and my income is ridiculously shameful but I still manage to get buy and when I have a few bucks to spare I prep. I buy sealed food, ammo, shelter, and whatever items I may be lacking. Because I see the writing on the wall.

And yes OP many of us do train for first aid, survival, weaponry etc... Thats because we prepare....thats because we see the writing on the wall and we've prepared.

This whole conversation is pointless OP. Your time will come soon enough.

But hey, instead of complaining about people who prep, why not make some preps for yourself? Otherwise what are you on here about?

I'll be fine...I'm in line with the wolves. I'm in line with the people who will appreciate all of your prepping as we take it for ourselves.

Some of you just don't get it I suppose. You're delusional and don't go outside. Your callousness and societies has created some MEAN and NASTY results.

You have this delusion that the millions of inner-city thugs are just going to sit on the streets and start crying until they die? You believe those black, white, hispanic poor people are just going to starve over night and you're going to come outside with the zone clear? You don't believe many of them have been in the military? LOL...you really believe they all hold their guns sideways?

All of the middle aged, elderly, handicapped or disabled, loner, hoarder, prepper, people...if you're not part of the pack...you will be eaten by the pack! The only thing stopping it from happening now is government.

What are you going to do with 50 or 100 young men surrounding your home or compound? This isn't television where they will all stand in plain sight so you can have target practice! Though you try and dehumanize them, they are still humans and just as smart or smarter than you.

These poor people are the scavengers of our society. Anyone with sense knows the scavengers are the last to die.

Why would more money remaining with the innovative , entrepreneurs,
the smart,the kind, the virtuous you know people who actually produce wealth
lead to the stone age?

Where's that 100th baboon?

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by DZAG Wright

Originally posted by jonnywhite
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

When you depend on someone else, you lose your freedoms.

If we have a society where people aren't expected to handle things themselves then we will live in a society without freedoms. Instead we'll be robots sanctioned by our country's experts.

Remain sitting and feel tyranny, get up (and act) and feel freedom.

If you don't do things yourself, others will do it for you. You may not like what they do.

edit on 29-5-2013 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)

We all depend on each other...that's the elephant in the room no one wants to admit.

"Depending on each other" is a tad bit different than one totally depending on others. My neighbors and I help each other out: we laon ech other things, we feed each other if someone is having a hard time, one guy with a snowplow might do all off the driveways on the street one winter and the other guy with the riding lawnmower will mow his lawn in the summer. This is a mutal giving and taking with everybody pitching in because that is what neighbors do.

This is radically different from someone doing nothing and expecting everyone else to take care of him and empowering a third party (government) to force it.

If they do nothing it's because our society is set up that way. Rather than villianize them we should have come up with a simple solution such as people on welfare can beautify the city they live in. Simple solution, the question is why hasn't it happened?