Was Jesus Christ just a man? Aetheists vs. Christians, Battle Royale

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

 

"Ramblings" of men who saw Christ die on the cross and rise from the dead as He had said He would.

I understanding you want them to be ramblings, because if they're ramblings, you don't have to take them seriously. But if they're not ramblings, then you're beholden to them, if not in this life, then in the life to come.

No. Ramblings of people that BELIEVE they saw a risen Jesus. Superstitious people see the things they want to see. One need only look around this website to find as many people that see Gods, Fairies, Ghosts, Aliens, and Jesus.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Let me see if I have this right: We are created in the image of our maker, and that image is not the thing itself, but a reflection of it? Because we are the reflection of god, we cannot truly die, though it seems we do -- at least from the perspective of the lower axiom(s) of our knowledge and experience? This is why it is so easy to compel men to fight and kill, for god, country, greed, or out of fear, because we intuitively know that our "life" and "death" is as illusionary as our reflection in a mirror?

I'm not trying to play gotcha here, I just want to understand what you are saying so that I can make sense of it as a response to my quoted statement. Thanks in advance!

reply to post by 0zzymand0s


James K. Hoffmeier, a Biblical archeologist, has spent many, many years uncovering Biblical history. In particular, he has focused on Egypt and the Biblical account of Exodus, and wrote a tremendous book detailing evidence for the truth of Exodus in a book called "Israel In Egypt."

Just because a new theory pops up among certain individual doesn't given it automatic validity.

My answer is that I have no problem with people believing what they want, so long as their beliefs are NOT used as an excuse to inflict harm upon others, extract wealth from them, enslave them, or to justify wars.
My problem is with organizations created solely to exploit myths and beliefs for wealth and commercial power. History proves that religion is a tool of human enslavement.
Even the Bible approves of slavery.

The ruling elite loves a population trained from birth to confuse beliefs with the real world.
It is much easier to rule a population, pillage them with taxes, or send them off to fight a war, if the ruler is not required to prove the reality of his or her propositions and statements.
This is why, since the dawn of civilizations, governments encourage their people to be ruled by beliefs and not by reason.
As children, we are bribed to allow beliefs to rule our thinking.
Believe in the fat man from the north Pole, get a bicycle.
Believe in the rabbit, get candy.
Believe in the tooth fairy, get a quarter. Never question, never think, never analyze; just take your goodies and go on believing.

It takes chains of steel to enslave a rational human, but all the rest may be enslaved by a belief.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee


Okay, I'll play. So what you're saying is, a relatively large group of men (and a few women) all saw Jesus die, and subsequently saw Him alive again, and then saw Him physically ascend into Heaven, but it was all some kind of group hysteria that they all traveled to world to teach and were persecuted and killed for.

Sounds reasonable.

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

 

Okay, I'll play. So what you're saying is, a relatively large group of men (and a few women) all saw Jesus die, and subsequently saw Him alive again, and then saw Him physically ascend into Heaven, but it was all some kind of group hysteria that they all traveled to world to teach and were persecuted and killed for.

Sounds reasonable.

No. We don't have hundreds of reports of eyewitness testimony stating they saw a risen Jesus. We have biased unsubstantiated accounting by a biased reporter (Mostly Apostle Paul) stating that a bunch of people saw it.

Not the same thing at all.

reply to post by madenusa


Your arguments would make sense, however:

Christianity denounces ignorance and blind faith.
Christians are to discern truth from lies, but to respect laws and "render unto Caesar's what is Caesar" for the sake of being lawful citizens.
World governments are continuously persecuting and drumming out Christianity.
We care for our children, and want them saved, but as adults we expect them to stay strong in faith not blindly, but with reason and intelligence. Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy die a thousand deaths in each of us when we reach maturity, but God rules eternally.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee


The Apostles who passed on the Good News, did so to give the Good News, not by saying, "Hey, listen, just believe me about this, alright? I saw Jesus rise from the dead, so put your faith in him." No, they explicitly appealed to things that were common knowledge. People saw Him rise. Do you honestly think Christianity went from one man to hundreds in a very short period of time because of blind faith? No. People saw the miracles Jesus performed, they saw Him die, they saw Him raised, and they saw Him ascended.

Edward Musgrave Blaiklock, who was the chair of Classics at Auckland University, said: "I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history."

The Bible is THE single most combed through, studied, and researched book in the history of the world. There is no book that has ever had anywhere near the kind of scrutiny the Bible has. And yet the truth of the Bible is continuously revealed through historical evidence in found ancient texts and archaeology, and all claims of contradictions and errors can be torn apart like so much cheap toilet paper.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


I have read your replies, and they're all the same it's mumbo jumbo they could be used to support Zeus, Ogden,
Ong Bak or any god your using words from a book wrote by men to subdue the simple minded sheep!

You can NOT prove god it can't be done you have NOT gave one shred of undeniable evidence, nor can you!
I'm done get a hold of me when god is proven fact in a lab, and has peer review backing his existence.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


Which is it, is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's?
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


Jesus represents the Jewish culture of the time, that was crucified as were the 6000 men and women were crucified on the hills outside the walls of Jerusalem during the Roman Siege of Jerusalem. He arose again through the Roman Catholic Church.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


I've been starring your replies because I appreciate your faith and passion. This reply is no exception. However -- you seem to imply that the notion that Jews did not flee Egypt en masse, as described in Exodus as the work of one particular man. I am curious however because I can find at least two sources; the Rabbi David Wolpe, and a Nova article by Carol Meyers which argues that the story in Exodus is a highly mythologized account of a much smaller -- albeit real -- group fleeing back to Canaan from Egypt. Are these both simply examples of the "new atheism" made famous by Dawkins or Hitchens, or is there any actual scholarly debate as to the veracity of some of the stories in Exodus?

I'll check on this thread again tomorrow.

I want to thank the OP again for crafting a thread which contained such interesting discussion. I want to thank Followthewhiterabbit again for putting up with my questions, and answering them as often as you did.

As a former atheist and now soft-agnostic, I found your approach to be (mostly) refreshing.

Originally posted by 0zzymand0s
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Let me see if I have this right: We are created in the image of our maker, and that image is not the thing itself, but a reflection of it? Because we are the reflection of god, we cannot truly die, though it seems we do -- at least from the perspective of the lower axiom(s) of our knowledge and experience? This is why it is so easy to compel men to fight and kill, for god, country, greed, or out of fear, because we intuitively know that our "life" and "death" is as illusionary as our reflection in a mirror?

I'm not trying to play gotcha here, I just want to understand what you are saying so that I can make sense of it as a response to my quoted statement. Thanks in advance!

There are two separate issues here. One issue is the intent of God to raise children to maturity, then give them their inheritance. A well governed kingdom is built on the will of God (Giving and Receiving). The will of men is to steal, kill and destroy as the thieves they are. We are not here under the context of truth, but under a pretext and lie. The Spirit is held by the will of another, but allowed by the wisdom of the one who engaged the process.

As for our willingness to follow the thieves, we cannot learn to be filled until we are empty.

Tao Te Ching

To yield is to preserve the whole.
To be misjudged is to be straightened.
To be hollow is to be filled.
To be battered is to be renewed.
To be in need is to possess.
To be abundant is to be confused.
Therefore, the saint embraces the “Oneness” as a standard for the world.
The wise one is not prejudiced, hence he is enlightened.
The wise one is not self-opinioned, hence he is outstanding.
The wise one does not boast of himself, hence he shall receive the credit.
The wise one does not praise his own deeds, hence can long endure.
Because the wise one does not conflict with others and therefore the world cannot contend
against him.
It is not true as the ancients say, “To yield is to preserve the whole?”
Thus the “Oneness” will be honored to him.

What do you see in these words? Look at the reason one opposite leads to the other. Compare a lesser case to the greater. What will happen in America when we are deprived of the thing we value? When justice is lacking, what rises? When tyranny rises, what stamps it out? When our enemies dig a pit for us to fall into, why do they then fall into it themselves? Who do we lean on for the cup to be filled?

I believe in God. I believe Jesus was just a man...a rebel leader. All of the Religions of Abraham are flawed and constructs of flawed men. Do you believe god would need hundreds of thousands of confusing, contradictory words to reveal him/herself to you? She wouldn't. Cut out the middlemen, including Jesus, and go straight o the source. Oh, and try not to kill everyone that doesn't agree with you, please.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by terriblyvexed
reply to post by Akragon

 

That would feel like looking for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow to me.

If god was real I still would not seek him/her, but the reasons for that would get disrespectful, and I like to be humorous without offending.

Then be humorous if that is your nature... Its not disrespectful to seek your origins my friend...

We're not talking about Lucky's charms here... God is reality...

Unfortunately it seems not everyone is meant to find that out...

And you sure can't take my word for it... Who am i?

edit on 22-5-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

I missed this gotta say that's deep thought. I doubt I could begin to understand all that.

Reminds me of a scientist I once read about when I was a kid can't remember his name, but he apparently just starred in a mirror, and by this means theorized that because he couldn't imagine nothing that this meant that without a body you exist, but without a conscience you do not.

I think there for I am...

Originally posted by terriblyvexed

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by terriblyvexed
reply to post by Akragon

 

That would feel like looking for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow to me.

If god was real I still would not seek him/her, but the reasons for that would get disrespectful, and I like to be humorous without offending.

Then be humorous if that is your nature... Its not disrespectful to seek your origins my friend...

We're not talking about Lucky's charms here... God is reality...

Unfortunately it seems not everyone is meant to find that out...

And you sure can't take my word for it... Who am i?

edit on 22-5-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

I missed this gotta say that's deep thought. I doubt I could begin to understand all that.

Reminds me of a scientist I once read about when I was a kid can't remember his name, but he apparently just starred in a mirror, and by this means theorized that because he couldn't imagine nothing that this meant that without a body you exist, but without a conscience you do not.

I think there for I am...

Glad you took the time to look it over!

Consider reading it over a few times if that is what is needed...

It may be worth your time... then again what else do we have but time eh...

Are you serious? There have been countless threads on this site covering this topic and it has been done to death. These diversionary tactics are the very thing that this site should refrain from participating in. I think that there are a lot more important things to be uncovering than who worships the right god, if any. I understand that people can have a conversation about this topic and learn from each-other in the process. However, I don't really think that is at the top of our priorities. In the end I don't really have the words to express my opinion on this matter. However, I do know of someone who does, the late George Carlin.

Yeah, I understand that this video has probably been posted to death, as well as the fact that people have varying opinions of George Carlin as a person. Sure, at times he can be rather cynical, but I ask everyone to suspend their preconceived notions of him for a second and hear what he has to say.

Divide and conquer no more. Please, for everyone's sake.

Disclaimer: I could not find the video that has just the part I want you to see, so just skip to the 9:00 minute mark for the part. The first part of the video has some explicit language, so be cautious.

reply to post by Renegade2283


George is awesome!

The problem with answering questions such as this is the
agreement that the story of jesus is true as it is written, i
no more believe the version of the story that is in the bible
than i would stories about how great batman is taken from
a comic book, same exact thing, each is a super hero from
their own era, each has his listed super powers and inspires
others to do good, each has folk lore for how they came to
be, the issue is it starts to sound crazy when either of
the fans of each of those comic books starts to have delusions
that they are actually real or true.