Trinitarians are Polytheists

reply to post by Akragon

When one person sees one thing and another sees something else in the same thing, then the one discovers what the other conceals. Insofar as the object viewed belongs to the external world, then how the observer is constituted is probably less important, or, more correctly then what is necessary for the observation is something irrelevant to his deeper nature. But the more the object of observation belongs to the world of the spirit, the more important is the way he himself is constituted in his innermost nature, because everything spiritual is appropriated only in freedom; but what is appropriated in freedom is also brought forth. The difference, then, is not the external but the internal, and everything that makes a person impure and his observation impure comes from within.

Soren Kierkegaard, Three Upbuilding Discourses, 1843, Hong p. 59-60

Now just to get your goat, I will make the observation that this quote, which I find very insightful, reminds me an awful lot of the Apostle Paul.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

2 were angels, one was the Son of God that later became Christ.

That is the very common interpretation of Christians who are taught that the OT is strictly monotheistic, or is trinitarian. My only objection is that without a preconceived teaching, there would be no need to try to harmonize this story with the pre accepted teaching.

There were many other instances where God's Glory appeared to men, Exodus 32, Joshua 5:5, Judges 13, Daniel 12, Daniel 3 are some.

You might want to recheck the Joshua 5:5 reference. As for Exodus 32:9-16, that used to be one of my favorite Old Testament passages upon which I preached more than one sermon. If you look at the story and compare with Galatians 3:19 "What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the seed should come to whom the promise has been made. It was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not between one, but God is one." you can sort out who Paul may have taken the cast of characters to be.
The angels = Yahweh, mediator = Moses, the non actor not visible = the One God. So when using some system of typology to interpret the OT, It isn't one of the angels of Yahweh who is the type for the Christ, but rather Moses.

He sees through his servants. Apostle Paul elborates more on this whenever he speaks about the Body of Christ. We are his temples and he inhabits us. What we see He sees, what we hear He hears. He is the Head and we are his Body, his extensions into this world.

Eyes are generally located in the head rather than the body. I Corinthians 12:17" If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the smelling be?"
You may be thinking of:

Revelation of John 5:6 I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

reply to post by pthena

. . . whenever I hear or read what remotely resembles ETERNAL IMMUTABLE LAW I have an extreme emotional reaction . . .

That is similar to me reacting when people talk about "paying" for sins.
Who is it exactly that this payment is made to?
I was taught a mythology that there is something eternal, like what you are describing of this mythical Law that pre existed everything, including maybe God Himself. You have to wonder.
What was the topic then? Oh, something about God, maybe being one or three or something else.
Since if we have a Law that is immutable, and a Justice that is all demanding, then God, or the gods, are only servants of the Law and Justice. That would cancel out there being one god, if those things were so all powerful as is made out by some.
I left one out, which is Mercy. So you have a trinity that are the super-gods that are one degree higher than the normal gods, or the 'God Trinity'. Law, Justice, and Mercy, which overrides everything and everyone in the universe. Their needs must be met before anything else.
Or, you could just say that these are principles that are agreed upon and is the fundamental guide of the totality of god entities, so much so that it represents what God is, with the word "God" in the singular, representing that constitution of the order of the gods.
Anyway, that's how I imagine it, that all the spirit entities of the collective mind had a conversation with most saying, "We want a universe so we can actually really do things." Then you had another group that said, "Have a good time with that. We will go along with the plan for a material world but we want to interact in it as pure spirit beings. We don't have a particular interest in living out lives doing physical things, enjoyable as all that sounds. We can achieve another sort of satisfaction by looking after ya'll."
Sort of like this HBO show, Game of Thrones, where you have the Order of the Black, who disavow normal lives to protect everyone else by manning the wall to the North that keeps out the walking death, or whatever.

reply to post by pthena


Are your eyes inside your body or outside? You're a strange looking human if your eyes are outside your body.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Since if we have a Law that is immutable, and a Justice that is all demanding, then God, or the gods, are only servants of the Law and Justice. That would cancel out there being one god, if those things were so all powerful as is made out by some.

If you recall that Cuervo wrote in his post:

I worship a "triple" goddess with three aspects. She is the same deity but changes in order to facilitate various roles. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are of a similar concept as my Maiden, Mother, Crone.
Link

I've only come across a three in one goddess in the Piers Anthony book With a Tangled Skein, part of the Incarnations of Immortality series. see (en.wikipedia.org...). In the series, she is not only Maiden, Mother, Crone, she is also the three fates, Moira: Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos.

The Three Fates are daughters of Ananke (necessity) which you are somewhat acquainted with.

They controlled the metaphorical thread of life of every mortal from birth to death. They were independent, at the helm of necessity, directed fate, and watched that the fate assigned to every being by eternal laws might take its course without obstruction. The gods and men had to submit to them, but in the case of Zeus he is portrayed in two ways: as the only one who can command them (the Zeus Moiragetes) or as the one who is also bound to the Moiras as incarnation of the fates.
Moira

It's a very disorienting thing: I looked around and found my copy of John Bowman's The Fourth Gospel and the Jews: A Study in R. Akiba, Esther, and the Gospel of John, because I clearly remember having underlined passages dealing with various trinities in 1st and 2nd Century Rabbinic writings. I look now, and can't find the passages. I think that my inability to distinguish between my faulty memory and actual alterations of reality stem from the time I tangled with the Moiras when she seemed to be the Spider. Very disorienting.

(to be continued later)

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Akragon

When one person sees one thing and another sees something else in the same thing, then the one discovers what the other conceals. Insofar as the object viewed belongs to the external world, then how the observer is constituted is probably less important, or, more correctly then what is necessary for the observation is something irrelevant to his deeper nature. But the more the object of observation belongs to the world of the spirit, the more important is the way he himself is constituted in his innermost nature, because everything spiritual is appropriated only in freedom; but what is appropriated in freedom is also brought forth. The difference, then, is not the external but the internal, and everything that makes a person impure and his observation impure comes from within.

Soren Kierkegaard, Three Upbuilding Discourses, 1843, Hong p. 59-60

Now just to get your goat, I will make the observation that this quote, which I find very insightful, reminds me an awful lot of the Apostle Paul.

edit on 12-5-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-5-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)

Leave my goat alone...

Funny how it reminds you of paul... Where i seem to see Thomas

Are any of you familiar with the Gabriel Stone?

If not you should check it out, just do search on you tube or internet and I want to see what you guys come up with.

Originally posted by WarriorOfLight96
Are any of you familiar with the Gabriel Stone?

If not you should check it out, just do search on you tube or internet and I want to see what you guys come up with.

Yes.. it has astrological markings that "might" point towards what destroyed S&G.... At least thats a theory...

What does that have to do with the topic?

reply to post by Akragon


It speaks of a person that will rise up from the dead after three days and free us of sin just before the time Yeshau appears and I find it amazing.

This little snippet is from a website called
www.godandscience.org...


The tablet consists of two partially-preserved columns of Hebrew text. The first column describes the breaking of evil by righteousness:

3
"By three days you shall know that, thus said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, the evil has been broken by righteousness."

This text is reminiscent of the passage from Daniel, which declares that the Messiah will "make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness."4 The text of Gabriel's Vision goes on to describe the timing of this event as in being "in just a little while":


In just a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth.

Since the dating of this tablet has been set to the late first century B.C., this "little while" would have been just a few years before the birth of Jesus, described in the Bible as being at the time of king Herod (who died in 4 B.C.).5 The text goes on the make Messianic allusions:


My servant David, ask of Ephraim (that he) place the sign; (this) I ask of you.

At the time of the writing of the Gabriel's vision, David had been dead for 1,000 years, so, obviously, the text does not refer directly to David. However, in the prophetic passages of the Bible (e.g., Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel), the text often refers to "My servant David" as King David's descendant and the Messiah to come.6 According to Jeremiah, the Messiah is the "righteous Branch" of David, who will be known as "The LORD our righteousness,"7 which goes along with the text listed above. Line 80 begins with the phrase "by three days" followed by the word "to live" or "be resurrected" , with the source being the angel "I, Gabriel" . Because of the poor preservation of the text, the object of the command is not clear. However, the next line contains the phrase "prince of princes" . Elsewhere in the prophetic passages of the old testament, Messiah is known as "Prince of Peace."8 Daniel defines Messiah as "Messiah the Prince"9 and makes direct reference to him as the "prince of princes."10 Given the significance of the Messianic nature of the text, and the juxtaposition of "prince of princes" to Gabriel's command, it would not be unreasonable to think that the resurrected one would be the Messiah. So, the likely translation would be "By three days, live, I Gabriel, command you, prince of the princes." Therefore, this stone strongly supports the New Testament's claim that Jesus is the Messiah who died for the sins of the people11 and rose again the third day.12

reply to post by Akragon

I fooled you again. I wasn't getting your goat, I was yanking your chain!

The actual verse that comes most easily to mind is:

Matt 12: 33 “Either make the tree good, and its fruit good, or make the tree corrupt, and its fruit corrupt; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 You offspring of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. 35 The good man out of his good treasure brings out good things, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings out evil things. 36 I tell you that every idle word that men speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”"

Now compare it with this:

Matthew 15:12 Then the disciples came, and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended, when they heard this saying?”

13 But he answered, "“Every plant which my heavenly Father didn’t plant will be uprooted. 14 Leave them alone. They are blind guides of the blind. If the blind guide the blind, both will fall into a pit.”"

Now that I look at this, I think that I may want to shift my position. I've always assumed a sort of universalist position. Am I wrong? Did Jesus teach any thing like a salvation from being one of a brood of vipers to being a good man?

Here's Paul:

Galatians 2:19 For I, through the law, died to the law, that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. 21 I don’t make void the grace of God. For if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing!”

5: 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let’s not become conceited, provoking one another, and envying one another.

Just to keep it on topic, I should mention that the question this raises is this: What is the relationship between Jesus the teacher, Christ's life being lived out in a person, and the Spirit?

I should mention that I don't think that Paul's flesh vs spirit dichotomy is particularly helpful. The conflict between good vs. bad, in my opinion, is a spirit vs spirit thing, the flesh has a difficult enough time just trying to stay healthy.

reply to post by WarriorOfLight96
Some one started a thread about this stone. I can't seem to find it.

1) whoever found it was interested in selling it, rather than telling appropriate researchers where it was located. No in situ investigation possible.

2) written with ink, rather than carved.

3) either this was a part of a non canonical writing that has been lost, or it's a one off monument someone made personally of a "Gabriel" vision, in which case he or she would have erected it in whatever spot the vision took place.

4) this might actually be the missing scripture referred to by Jesus and Paul when they say or write, "and rose the third day, according to the scriptures", since nowhere in the canonical OT does it say anything like that.

reply to post by pthena

Did Jesus teach any thing like a salvation from being one of a brood of vipers to being a good man?

Not strictly speaking as a teaching, but he believed in it himself.
The brood of vipers were people who saw themselves as the protectors of the faith, and were suspicious of anyone who seemed to be teaching against it.
What was the "faith" other than believing Moses because he was able to perform miracles?
Here was Jesus doing real miracles, healing people who had real serious health issues, and those religious authorities (probably self-appointed) did not recognize that here was someone in their midst who was greater than Moses, and instead of believing in him, plotted to have him killed.
What Jesus did do was to meet with individuals and small groups of these religious people, who were willing to listen to him, to persuade them to take his side. I think he was mostly successful in doing that within his own region but was overwhelmed by the opposition once he was in the jurisdiction of Judea proper.
So Jesus would have been designating as "brood of vipers", that genre of religionist who were naturally inclined to oppose him, as a sort of justification for the ultimate collapse of that system that they represented themselves as protecting, which would have been the destruction of the temple by the Romans in 70 AD. Which, to me, the writer of Matthew had in mind when he wrote the Gospel, or the editors who created the final version of it that we have today.

reply to post by pthena

Some one started a thread about this stone. I can't seem to find it.

That is in the Religious Conspiracies sub-forum.
The thread is Mysterious Stone on Display in Jerusalem.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by jmdewey60

So you have a trinity that are the super-gods that are one degree higher than the normal gods, or the 'God Trinity'. Law, Justice, and Mercy, which overrides everything and everyone in the universe. Their needs must be met before anything else.

Don't forget ALETHÉIA aka Truth, Discloser of the hidden; close kin to Honesty, in my opinion, the highest human virtue. The etymology suggests that the addition of a before the name Letho (forgetfulness) means only the opposite of Letho.

In my thinking, that leaves Aletheia free to be a purely human goddess, since in the pantheon above (if that means anything) there is no Aletheia, she therefore is in the provenance of humanity, not as a negative, but as a positive force.

5) Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which
is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing
hidden which will not become manifest."

6) His disciples questioned Him and said to Him, "Do you want
us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet
shall we observe?"
Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."
Gospel of Thomas

To be quite honest, I should admit that the personal religion that Jesus had, may not be the same as mine. I shouldn't pretend that I completely agree with Jesus on all things; that is what the cults do, pretend.

I do believe this, though : when it comes to religious practices such as fasting, prayer, alms, diet, and any other duty you think you owe to a god, or gods, honesty comes first, and then not being pushed into some activity that isn't natural to you.

Edit to add: I think that there is enough evidence to suggest that Jesus was a monotheist, he called his God, Father, Father in Heaven, or just Heaven. That doesn't strike me as a trinity. The religion of Jesus may be superior to my own. If his God is the whole heaven, and my god is only the blue part, then isn't the religion of Jesus at least twice as good as mine? As if such a thing can even be quantified.

reply to post by pthena


Whats done in the dark will surely be brought to light and this why you keep your robes clean and wash them with the blood of Christ. Many who are not ready will tend to bash these things because they don`t like to be exposed and they like this privacy. In world filled with this darkness a man can see many a false light, they stray towards it but in the end he is swallowed up by the flame.

In the same way you have to test the very nature of your being because you are your worst enemy and if you don`t love yourself how can one love another.

The holy spirit is the author of the bible and not in the material sense but the inspiration and guider of the hand that pens the scripture.

reply to post by jmdewey60

So this is part 3 in my response to your one post. I guess I'm really slow.

that's how I imagine it, that all the spirit entities of the collective mind had a conversation with most saying, "We want a universe so we can actually really do things." Then you had another group that said, "Have a good time with that. We will go along with the plan for a material world but we want to interact in it as pure spirit beings. We don't have a particular interest in living out lives doing physical things, enjoyable as all that sounds. We can achieve another sort of satisfaction by looking after ya'll."

Here is a wikipedia page that should be required reading for everyone on this thread. It reveals what has been hidden and suppressed by Christianity and Judaism and probably many other cults, and sects of cults. I am putting a small portion here, not for the lazy, but so that actual seekers of truth may know ahead of time what they should read completely.

Daemon

Daemons are good or benevolent nature spirits, beings of the same nature as both mortals and gods, similar to ghosts, chthonic heroes, spirit guides, forces of nature or the gods themselves (see Plato's Symposium). Walter Burkert suggests that unlike the Judeo-Christian use of demon in a strictly malignant sense,

The actual term for spirit beings is Daemon. The religions have suppressed this knowledge and created a false dichotomy of good/evil, that is: Angel/Demon. Angel is not a being, plain and simple. Angel is a job discription. Daemons have been demonized.

To call evil that which is neither evil nor good is an evil thing, it is bearing false witness.

In the same way, worshipping angels as if they were God, is an evil thing, a degradation of humanity. This is what Judaism is, in my honest opinion. By pretending that the angels are God, the organized Christian Cults, which suppress the truth, are continuing the evil of Judaism. This is my honest opinion. This is my judgement.

reply to post by pthena


Are you familiarly with the food of the Gods and it`s this food these beings that fell to earth have been taking since the dawn of man. If I remember correctly I remember reading about ormus or something of that nature and this fellow said that he could make a pill from white gold powder and extend your life and make your body glow.

This why they could not recognize Jesus because his body illuminated bright but these fallen angels need this food to live and travel between realms, they will be back and it`s just a matter of time they come

reply to post by WarriorOfLight96

Are you familiarly with the food of the Gods and it`s this food these beings that fell to earth have been taking since the dawn of man

No, I'm afraid not. I may have read the H.G. Wells book, but I don't remember. I may have seen the movie, but I don't remember.

I don't particularly believe the mythology of "fallen angels" which comes from Enochian cycle of literature.

If you like fantasy that somewhat touches upon these topics, with a Nordic myth flavor, I recommend Gene Wolfe The Knight and The Wizard.

Spoiler alert: The entities that want human worship are not the ones who deserve it.

reply to post by pthena

. . . since in the pantheon above (if that means anything) . . .

The one I mentioned?
I was finding it impossible to phrase what I was trying to say in a way that would be understandable.
That, and at the same time at least attempting to be on topic.
Up until very recently, I believed in the mythology that I was taught by my church or the one I sort of fell into by birth.
I think if you did believe it, and followed it to its logical conclusion, you would end up with that, what I was describing.

We can't really be good, because we get caught up in all the things that life entails, and we have a vested interest in that life and we always have to fall back to what we need for survival.
Someone who didn't have a life, or not a mortal life, and not like some sort of Olympian god, where they were pretty much like us but just didn't die, but where they were spiritual beings and they didn't need to build a house to live in or worry about having children or what they are going to eat. They could be really good because they don't have survival instincts and procreative instincts with rivalries and competition for the best mating partners.
The point being, when we need help, it may be unanswered by other humans and then it falls on the gods or rather God, to fill in the gap, because that is a really good person without reservations that are just too natural for mere mortals.
Jesus could have been like that, helpful even if it cost him his life, because he had no such attachments to this life and he knew he had another, in another p[lace, and he knew that he had one waiting for him, again, in that place, as a god.