Trinitarians are Polytheists

Trinity is plain simple polytheism being tried to be integrated into monotheism by building and refining philosophies for over almost two millennia now.
Jews outright reject it as God is One and has no offsprings/partners etc, thats just pagan thinking.
Muslims likewise have a very firm and simple monotheistic belief.
The clover leaf idea is not a proof of trinity, its just an explanation.
Someone could invent pentinity and explain it with a 5 pronged leaf or a hand! 5 fingers yet one hand, ALL PRAISE THE PENTAUNE GOD!!!

Originally posted by logical7
Trinity is plain simple polytheism being tried to be integrated into monotheism by building and refining philosophies for over almost two millennia now.
Jews outright reject it as God is One and has no offsprings/partners etc, thats just pagan thinking.
Muslims likewise have a very firm and simple monotheistic belief.
The clover leaf idea is not a proof of trinity, its just an explanation.
Someone could invent pentinity and explain it with a 5 pronged leaf or a hand! 5 fingers yet one hand, ALL PRAISE THE PENTAUNE GOD!!!

Monotheistic Religions.

reply to post by logical7

ALL PRAISE THE PENTAUNE GOD!!!

I met that god, and it was the most frightening experience that I have ever had.
I would never worship it.
The one God who can deliver you form the Pentaune is who you should worship.

Originally posted by logical7
The clover leaf idea is not a proof of trinity, its just an explanation.

Who said it was proof of anything?

The Doctrine of the Trinity was an effort to explain what was going on in the Bible, as well as among the earliest Christians, who worshipped Jesus as God. In the Bible, Jesus is portrayed as both having the characteristics of God, and the authority of God. So, clearly, to the earliest Christians, Jesus was God. But Jesus is also portrayed in the Bible as being a unique person from God the Father, and the Holy Spirit -- at his baptism, all three are present at the same time, and we know that God the Father and the Holy Spirit are referenced in the Hebrew Bible, so how can Jesus be God?

For the earliest Christians, it doesn't seem like they cared about it -- they just worshipped Jesus as God and didn't really address the issue. Paul and John clearly treat Jesus and God the Father as separate persons, but do so without explanation.

It wasn't until about a hundred years after Christ's death that people, now somewhat disconnected from the Apostolic Age, began to speculate about the nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that led to confusion and heresy (the Docetists, for example, believed that Christ was a spirit and his human form was just an illusion; the Ebionites, on the other hand, believed that Christ was the Messiah, but wasn't God,) and that led to various theologians sitting down and trying to figure out what was really going on, and the Doctrine of the Trinity was what they came up with.

One does not need to accept the Doctrine of the Trinity to accept the person of Jesus Christ, even to accept that Jesus was divine, but to reject it is to reject Christianity, and thus, becoming part of another religion, whether it be Islam, Mormonism, or TrueJew's "Oneness Pentecostalism".

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by truejew

 

No, I am saying that Jesus is the Son of God, the Father manifest in flesh, not the "eternal God the Son" as in trinitarianism.

What do you think Jewish belief is?
Or what do you think Jewish belief was at the time of Christ?
Do you think it is the same as what passes for Jewish belief today?
Have you ever considered that at the time when Jesus was here on earth, Jewish usually meant that you lived in the Diaspora and that you did believe in an eternal Son of God, who was Adonai, the Lord, who was not necessarily the God, but as much of a god as the earth could tolerate the presence of?

Looks to me, based upon your last question, that you are into teachings that come from the Kabbalah. I hope that is wrong due to the evilness of the Kabbalah.

Originally posted by adjensen

The Doctrine of the Trinity was an effort to explain what was going on in the Bible, as well as among the earliest Christians, who worshipped Jesus as God.

It is not mans place to call God a trinity if God has never said "I am a trinity".

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen

The Doctrine of the Trinity was an effort to explain what was going on in the Bible, as well as among the earliest Christians, who worshipped Jesus as God.

It is not mans place to call God a trinity if God has never said "I am a trinity".

That's as rational as saying "It is not mans place to call God not a trinity if God has never said "I am not a trinity"."

The Trinity is implicit in the text and the behaviour of the earliest Christians. Your "oneness modality" must be inferred from the text, requires rejecting or misinterpreting passages in scripture, is inconsistent with the behaviour of the earliest Christians (including the Apostles) and is as much of a theological construct as the Doctrine of the Trinity is.

What does Yeshau mean in your language my friend?

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen

The Doctrine of the Trinity was an effort to explain what was going on in the Bible, as well as among the earliest Christians, who worshipped Jesus as God.

It is not mans place to call God a trinity if God has never said "I am a trinity".

That's as rational as saying "It is not mans place to call God not a trinity if God has never said "I am not a trinity"."

The Trinity is implicit in the text and the behaviour of the earliest Christians. Your "oneness modality" must be inferred from the text, requires rejecting or misinterpreting passages in scripture, is inconsistent with the behaviour of the earliest Christians (including the Apostles) and is as much of a theological construct as the Doctrine of the Trinity is.

It is very rational to only believe what God has told us about Himself. This is why we are warned against following the philosophy of man instead of God.

It is actually the trinity that must be inferred from the text by using philosophy from Plato.

Originally posted by WarriorOfLight96
What does Yeshau mean in your language my friend?

I think you mean Yeshas. It means Jesus, EhJeh delivers, in English

reply to post by truejew

Looks to me, based upon your last question, that you are into teachings that come from the Kabbalah. I hope that is wrong due to the evilness of the Kabbalah.

I don't read the Kabbalah so I'm not getting that from there.
I'm getting that from books about the history of ideas in the time of Christ.
What was Jesus saying when he said, "the next time that you see me I will be on the right hand of power"?
He was describing a scenario that they expected to literally happen. Just not with him, because he seemed to lowly to the leaders.

reply to post by adjensen

and that led to various theologians sitting down and trying to figure out what was really going on, and the Doctrine of the Trinity was what they came up with.

so basically the dominant group/s decided what God is?!!!
If Ebonites were dominant then it would be same as Islamic belief.
Then they also decided which gospels should be included and which rejected.
Sure people were worshipping Jesus pbuh especially after Paul but who says the majority opinion is always right? Paul's Christianity custom made for gentiles spread faster while the real apostles remained conservative and concentrated their preaching among jews.
So you do agree what you are following was decided by people dominant at that time and it may or may not be correct, Jesus pbuh did not authenticate it, neither God. The claim that Holy Spirit was guiding those people is questionable and just wishful thinking because then were the Ebonites misguided by the Devil?! Just like Islam!! And what if its reverse?

reply to post by truejew

Looks to me, based upon your last question, that you are into teachings that come from the Kabbalah. I hope that is wrong due to the evilness of the Kabbalah.

Due to the fact that it's easier to find Kabbalah in English translations, it sometimes seems that when someone writes about what Jews believed in 1st century BC and AD, that they are referring to Kabbalah. It's not necessarily so.

It seems to me that what is being referred to is what Greek speaking Jews would actually be saying while praying.

Rituals, including prayer, hymn singing, and oath making, actually reveal more about a religion than actual written out dissertations, in my opinion. What is suggested is not much different than what you most likely believe:

We affirm that the last and greatest name of God revealed to man is *Jesus*. God first revealed himself as deity to mankind with use of the word Elohim. Several hundred years later, God gave to Abraham an exaltation of this name in the form of *Elshaddai*, translated: *God Almighty*. Four hundred and twenty five years later God appeared unto Moses and revealed himself by yet another secret name: Ehyeh asher Ehyeh (or Ehieh asher Ehieh) , the meaning of which is said to be: I AM that I AM. This name was the name of deliverance for the Israelites from Egypt and a name of Covenant and worship until the very birth of the Messieh. At that time, the last and greatest name of God ever revealed to mankind was revealed to the world. That name was Iehshus or Iehshua in Hebrew, Iesous translated into Greek, and Jehsus in English. The *h* has been dropped from the spelling now for several hundred years because in many Jewish uses it is silent. Easily we may see that the name of IEH-shua or Ieh-sus contains a contraction of the divine name as given to Moses at the burning bush. For this reason there is no other name given among men under heaven whereby we all must be saved (Acts 4:14, John 3:18).
The Sacred Name of God

That puts a statement like "Jesus is Lord" as a very high confession of faith, one very difficult to accept for very many people. In fact outlawed as idolatry and/or blasphemy by some religions.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by WarriorOfLight96
What does Yeshau mean in your language my friend?

I think you mean Yeshas. It means Jesus, EhJeh delivers, in English

John 1:1 (ESV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1 In the beginning was the ehjeh, and the ehjeh was with God, and the ehjeh was God.

Ehjeh was also the light and the Lord in the OT, Gods breath is the holy spirit and helps him and accompanies the light with warmth and creation.

Isaiah 43:10-11
New International Version (NIV)
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.

And this is God becoming the savior and who will soon walk with us and deliver the massage he so lovingly gave with Ejeh. The God that became flesh to deliver the massage to those who try so hard but fail and we know only two survived that last time earth was punished and that's why he became flesh.

The old way is gone and what replaces it is the word of God who is Ejeh, The golden path he shows is the path we must follow because it's the only way and all other avenues are closed. Like I said in my previous post about how he talks with us and how we communicate with him. His breath is the Holy spirit and the warmth and feelings of endless joy and knowledge, knowledge is what he brings and to some he brings faith and some a voice to speak the word and is your friend.

You will never know until the spirit is upon you and all his work will make sense and I am man like you and we all make mistakes and all have gone down the road of sin. God wanted a washing machine for your robe and the son answered the call of the father and delivered the message.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by truejew

 

What was Jesus saying when he said, "the next time that you see me I will be on the right hand of power"?

When Jesus first came, He was in the position of a human man.

The next time we see Him, He will be in the position of authority and power of God.

reply to post by truejew

The next time we see Him, He will be in the position of authority and power of God.

The leading temple priests did not have to sit there and wonder about what he meant.
They understood immediately that he was claiming to be the Lord, or the Adonai of Malachi that John the Baptist was said to be preparing the way for.
They already had a picture in mind of what that prophesied event would look like, and Jesus was describing that scene.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by adjensen

 

and that led to various theologians sitting down and trying to figure out what was really going on, and the Doctrine of the Trinity was what they came up with.

so basically the dominant group/s decided what God is?!!!

Um... no, where did I say anything like that?

I said that they developed the Doctrine of the Trinity to explain the evidence in the Bible and among early Christians that Jesus was God, and that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinctive hypostasis (persons.) The Ebionites (who were strict Jews) rejected the evidence in the Bible that Jesus was divine and settled on him being the Jewish Messiah. The orthodox position was not to reject any of it, but rather to reconcile it, which the Doctrine of the Trinity does.

reply to post by logical7

Blessed is she who upon hearing a good word, says "Yes, that's how I've felt in my heart for the longest time that it must actually be! It's like coming home, and the words are my address, I know where I live now!"

This seems to be rare these days. It's quite individual and who is to say that one person's address is the same as another person's? If it were, then everyone's spoken creed would be the same. But I don't see that happening.

Sure people were worshipping Jesus pbuh especially after Paul but who says the majority opinion is always right? Paul's Christianity custom made for gentiles spread faster while the real apostles remained conservative and concentrated their preaching among jews.

No, I don't think Paul had a custom made Christianity for the Gentiles. If it were so, then he would have had something like The Apostle's Creed or Nicene Creed to present. But he didn't, all we have are letters written, which are as difficult to understand as any cross cultural literature is, that includes the sayings of Jesus in the Gospels.

Why is it that the Qur'an says the gospel was given to Jesus, and yet we can't find a summery as to what that gospel was?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by truejew

 

The next time we see Him, He will be in the position of authority and power of God.

The leading temple priests did not have to sit there and wonder about what he meant.
They understood immediately that he was claiming to be the Lord, or the Adonai of Malachi that John the Baptist was said to be preparing the way for.
They already had a picture in mind of what that prophesied event would look like, and Jesus was describing that scene.

edit on 10-5-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

I did not say that they did not understand immediately.

reply to post by adjensen

The orthodox position was not to reject any of it, but rather to reconcile it, which the Doctrine of the Trinity does.

And maybe that's where they may have made some missteps. Didn't Jesus himself imply that he was actually coming with a teaching that supersedes what was in the Old Testament? (the phraseology "you have heard ... but I tell you..." notably in the Sermon on the Mount)

Compare what the Jesus Messieh Church teaches:

The Scriptures:
. . .
The Scriptures are divided into two sections, the Old Testament (Old Torah), and the New Testament (New Torah).
. . .
Scriptural Interpretation:
. . .
Therefore, the entire Bible is to be interpreted through the filter of the teachings of Messieh and the Apostles. All other interpretations, including Jewish ones, not in harmony with that revealed in the New Torah, are rejected as traditions of men, spurious, error, interpolations, and false doctrine.

We totally reject that the Old Torah is the Messianic Faith. The New Torah as replacement of the Old Torah, is the basis of our Faith. We do not interpret the New Torah by the Old Torah, but vise-a-versa.
Scriptures

That would seem to be a legitimate Christian MO. After all,

Hebrews 8:6 But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which on better promises has been given as law. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

Some things which may have seemed to be eternally established may just have been not quite as permanent after all. But then it cuts both ways. The Trinitarians and Oneness both have fastened on various verses of post-exile writings about the singularity of God, and have attempted to frame the New Testament to fit the Old, even though the Old was not always monotheistic, but is contradictory within its own body of literature.

Are there any Jews or Christians who proclaim Cyrus Messiah these days? Why not? It's right there in Isaiah!