A question for those who believe in the rapture

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by DelayedChristmas

 

Dear DelayedChristmas,

I have asked them and one of them graduated from a very famous Christian University. I don't seek to promote their views or anyone else's. I am really trying to see how a pre-tribulationist would answer the question in my OP, which really is "How would they know if they were wrong".

How would pre-tribbers know it they are wrong?

It sounds like a trick question. Wouldn't the start of the great tribulation indicate that?

There are two things I don't get. First, does it really matter? I remember reading some forum a couple of years ago, where someone was talking about Francis Schaeffer, and said that they thought he was brilliant (something I agree with,) but that he dismissed his writings because Schaeffer was a post-millenialist (or pre or mid or something.) That just seemed bizarre, because it will be what it is, and what difference would it make?

The other thing I don't understand is people who think that a pre-Tribulation rapture would be awesome, because it would "eliminate all those irritating Christians". I think they're missing something important there, lol.

reply to post by adjensen


The rapture isn't a primary or secondary doctrine so I don't even know why Christians fight and divide over it to begin with.

reply to post by adjensen

. . . he dismissed his writings because Schaeffer was a post-millenialist (or pre or mid or something.) That just seemed bizarre, because it will be what it is, and what difference would it make?

Can you say, "cult"?
That means that you only accept what comes from your leader or other members of the cult.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The rapture isn't a primary or secondary doctrine so I don't even know why Christians fight and divide over it to begin with.

I'm really glad to find out that you no longer will be supporting pre-tribulation rapture.
Does this mean that you are leaving your cult?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The rapture isn't a primary or secondary doctrine so I don't even know why Christians fight and divide over it to begin with.

I'm really glad to find out that you no longer will be supporting pre-tribulation rapture.
Does this mean that you are leaving your cult?

Where did I say I don't believe the rapture is pre-tribulational?

Go have a cup or two of coffee and come back to the discussion Dewey.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Where did I say I don't believe the rapture is pre-tribulational?

I was hoping that you had just made a declaration of your intent, for the sake of Christian unity, to support an ambiguous rapture.

I think that whenever the end of time is, that is when the rapture happens.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew
It is actually you two who have been going off topic.

Where??

Let's stay on topic.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew
It is actually you two who have been going off topic.

Where??

Let's stay on topic.

I don't think so, you can't fling around an accusation, ( arbitrary at that), then change the subject when called out on it.

Where did I take this thread off-topic?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Where did I say I don't believe the rapture is pre-tribulational?

I was hoping that you had just made a declaration of your intent, for the sake of Christian unity, to support an ambiguous rapture.

I think that whenever the end of time is, that is when the rapture happens.

That's an absurd idea. Why would I lie about what I believe in the sake of unity when in actuality it would be a feigned unity?

I just said it's not something Christians should fight over when it's not a part of the gospel. It's not a primary doctrine of theology or soeteriology.

IMHO there is no rapture just the 2nd advent.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Why would I lie about what I believe in the sake of unity when in actuality it would be a feigned unity?

You were talking as if it was relatively trivial and you don't see why anyone should argue about it.
So what you are really saying then is that everyone should just give in and join the cult.
You are not talking about yourself leaving the cult, in order to join normal Christianity.
People should get along by just agreeing with you, and never the other way around.

I just said it's not something Christians should fight over when it's not a part of the gospel. It's not a primary doctrine of theology or soteriology.

Part and parcel. I have been saying that it all goes together.
Your rapture theory would not exist if the cult did not exist.
The doctrines all fit together as parts of the cult-doctrinal whole. Rapture is good, believing in the rapture is good, believing you are saved makes you saved.
Believing in your already assured salvation, and believing in the rapture, makes you guaranteed to be in the rapture.
Missing any component of this doctrine suite leaves you out.

reply to post by guitarplayer

IMHO there is no rapture just the 2nd advent.

Like Jesus getting a condo in Miami?
No, there isn't another "advent".
What brings Jesus to Earth is everyone becoming Christians and then Jesus is in all, then God takes the kingdom over from Jesus.
That is what Paul seems to be saying in 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Why would I lie about what I believe in the sake of unity when in actuality it would be a feigned unity?

You were talking as if it was relatively trivial and you don't see why anyone should argue about it.

Actually, that was me. I fail to see how any of it matters, one iota. Pre-tribulation rapture? So what. Post-millenialism? Who cares? If someone is planning their life and/or salvation around such superficial nonsense, they really need to re-think what is important.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Dear jmdewey60,

I think you are asking how someone who believes in a pre-trib rapture would "know" that they were going to be in it.

Sorry, that is not what I am asking. Lets assume there is no rapture or that if there is it is only for the 144,000. Lets assume that if there is a rapture it is mid or late tribulation. For the purpose of my question is doesn't matter, all that would matter is if there was no pre-tribulation rapture. There are many who believe in that. My question is, how would they know if they were wrong? If they saw everyone required to wear a mark would they reconsider their position. That is really what I am asking.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Dear NOTurTypical,

How would pre-tribbers know it they are wrong?

It is not a trick question, I don't do that to Christians, you have read enough of my posts that you should know that. Revelations is a very image driven and difficult to understand book for most. I think there are many things in it that we will not know until after they have occurred. Yet, many people hold very firm beliefs on it. I have found that whether one is pre, mid or late tribulation believers, they hold their beliefs very strongly (as evidenced by this thread).

I could have asked the following, maybe it would have been less divisive. There are those who believe that the Mark of the Beast is attending church on Sundays rather than Saturdays. Let us assume that the Mark is just that, an etching, indentation or such that is put on ones hand. Because those who believe the Mark is the day of the week when you attend church, they might even take the mark on the hand. My question is whether or not we are willing to consider how we would know our dogma was wrong, what would it take.

reply to post by jmdewey60

You were talking as if it was relatively trivial and you don't see why anyone should argue about it.
So what you are really saying then is that everyone should just give in and join the cult.

Instead of dealing with what you think I'm 'saying' I have a better idea. Try dealing with what I SAID.

that the timing of the rapture specifically, or the rapture doctrine in general is not a primary or secondary doctrine and Christians shouldn't fight over it. It's pretty silly. When Christ comes for us it'll happen. We're told to occupy and advance His kingdom until that time. So it can be fun debate, but it's not something to fight over. It has nothing to do with salvation.

reply to post by adjensen

Actually, that was me. I fail to see how any of it matters, one iota. Pre-tribulation rapture? So what. Post-millenialism? Who cares? If someone is planning their life and/or salvation around such superficial nonsense, they really need to re-think what is important.

What makes it important is that you have this thing (pre-tribulation rapture) that now, 200 years into it, may seem normal, but it wasn't normal back in 1800 when the rapture cult was invented. Up until then, it was believed that if there was such a thing as a rapture, it happened on judgment day.
Dispensationalism, invented by John Nelson Darby, created this idea that there was no judgment day, and the world went on as normal but just minus the Christians, who are conveniently removed so that the Jews can go on as if Jesus never happened.
So you have several problems presented by this situation, no judgment, instant salvation by just wishing with the appropriate amount of sincerity, and instant transportation to someplace off-world.
The people perpetrating the hoax of course care not about the damnation to would-be Christians because they get what they want, which is complacency and non involvement from the very people who should be resistant to the criminality of the genocide of the Palestinian people.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew
It is actually you two who have been going off topic.

Where??

Let's stay on topic.

I don't think so, you can't fling around an accusation, ( arbitrary at that), then change the subject when called out on it.

Where did I take this thread off-topic?

You are trying to right now. Let's get back on topic.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
The people perpetrating the hoax of course care not about the damnation to would-be Christians because they get what they want, which is complacency and non involvement from the very people who should be resistant to the criminality of the genocide of the Palestinian people.

Sorry, I'm just not seeing it. I've never met anyone (at least not for several decades) who was orienting their lives around something so flimsy. Perhaps it's because I'm not very interested in "End Times" eschatology (as NOTurTypical says, it'll happen when it happens, so focusing on it is counter-productive -- we should be right with the Lord whether the Final Judgement is tomorrow or a million years from now,) but arguing over finer points of purely speculative concepts and, even worse, dismissing someone like Schaeffer because he has the "wrong" position on it is just foolish.

Israel / Palestine is a political, not religious issue. If there are some isolated nutters who cheer it on because they think it fulfills some prophecy, so be it, but I doubt that real decision makers (as opposed to nutters) plan around it (yeah, I know about HW, but that's history, and he didn't make his policies in a non-political vacuum.)