A question for those who believe in the rapture

I know that there are three views on this, there are those who believe the rapture occurs before the tribulations, those who believes it happens during them (usually at the end of the first 3 1/2 years) and those who believe the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation. To me it always was sort of irrelevant, I mean one of the first things I did when I joined ATS was to write a thread about how Harold Camping (the false prophet who predicted the end of the world) was a moron. When he was proven wrong, it destroyed his life and I believe he died because of it.

So, if you asked me if I believe in the rapture, I would say maybe. If you asked me when I thought it was most likely to occur, I would probably say mid-way. The bible says that nobody knows the day or the time. My first question is, if you believe the rapture occurs before the tribulation begins then if you are wrong, how would you know? If you were wrong and the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulations, you would not even believe you were in the tribulation.

My second question is to everyone who believes in the rapture. If the rapture occurred tomorrow, how would you know? Calling yourself a Christian does not guarantee that you are. Believing Jesus was real or the savior does not get you in by itself. It says that he will turn many away that call him by name and tell them that he never knew them because they did not care for others, did not feed the poor and did not visit those in prison. Heck, even the demons know his name and who he is; but, they don't get salvation.

Now, back to Mr. Camping. I am willing to consider the fact that the rapture will occur before the great tribulation; but, we are supposed to be discerning and we cannot be if we refuse to be consider the fact that we could be wrong. What if Mr. Camping was right and wrong. What if Mr. Camping had accurately predicted the beginning of the great tribulation; but, had been wrong about the rapture and it is a mid or end tribulation rapture? Heck, christians might even take the mark believing it was not the end times because they had not been raptured.

Consider this possibility, if the rapture is mid, at the end or never, and you could get an invisible electronic tattoo that monitored your health to make sure that you were okay and in order to use your atm you had to have a palm scan (as is done in Japan) then the tattoo would tell the scanner if you were alive or dead thereby making cutting off your hand to steal from your account sort of useless. What if this tattoo said nothing about who you were personally, only that you were alive, would you take it?

reply to post by AQuestion

fact that the rapture will occur before the great tribulation

No disrespect intended.

the problem with these kind of religious ramblings is that if asteroid comes our way and hits earth, you will think it's God's rapture.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


Dear MarioOnTheFly,

The question goes deeper than religion, too bad you couldn't see that. It is really a question of dogma, any dogma that blinds us to other possibilities. I shall present it to you in another manner. I could have made it about science and it's dogma; but, chose religion. There is a geologist that claims that the Sphinx is at least 10,000 years old, the Egyptologists completely reject this and believe them to be from about 4,000 BC. They are so convinced that they are right that they ignore all of the geological evidence. One rambles when one denies possibilities, as you have done.

reply to post by AQuestion


so, correct me if I'm wrong, you are trying to debunk religious dogma by finding logical inconsitencies ?

It is a futile effort my friend...if that was your intention. People that believe in the Rapture, can barely put 2 and 2 together. And I'm not talking about math.

reply to post by AQuestion


I grew up in an Assembly of God, Pentecostal church environment, where it was taught that the "Rapture" would occur before the "Tribulation." The Rapture would be the onset for the Tribulation, that was supposed to last 7 years. After the 7 years of Tribulation, Jesus and his Heavenly kingdom would descend, and Jesus will rule the world for (I can't remember) 1000 or 10,000 years.

After that, there will be the "Great Battle" and Satan, "The Beast" will be cast into the "bottomless pit."

Personally, I believe that the "Book of Revelation" is a metaphor for something that has already happened, is constantly happening, and will happen again.

I don't believe in the "Rapture" event, as I was taught, and the only way I can see it happening is if some benevolent off world race swoops down and pulls us away from some impending doom, like an asteroid.

reply to post by AQuestion

If you asked me when I thought it was most likely to occur, I would probably say mid-way.

The fact that it is unclear, I think, should be an indication that it is hypothetical.
If it mattered, it would be clear, or at least that makes sense to me.
What is 'clear' is that Christians should expect resistance from the evil religious and political institutions of the world.
The image presented is of the souls of people going to a sacred location as they are killed by those powers who are arrayed against God.
What the pre-tribbers mistake for a 'rapture' in Revelation is a bloody harvest of the wicked.

reply to post by windword

. . . church environment, where it was taught that the "Rapture" would occur before the "Tribulation."

What would be the purpose of a tribulation?
How would it even be a tribulation if the good people were already raptured?
If all that was left were bad people, it would not be a tribulation, but a fair judgment.
It has to be for one reason, in my estimation, to teach such a thing, and that would be to promote the ideology of Dispensationalism.
Christians are conveniently removed from the world, according to this grand scheme, which leaves the Jews who rejected Jesus, but apparently see Jesus up in the sky when the rapture happens.
From that point, on, then this theory resets history back, as if Jesus never existed or there was a such thing as Christianity, and the ancient Israel of the Old Testament has a do-over but without having to accept a loving and kind Jesus, but a new version of a Messiah who is completely different and is a bloody killer who goes to war and enslaves the world to force tribute from the 'nations' to be given to him to enrich the Jewish kingdom in Palestine.
The joke is you already see this sort of thing going on but it is Satan behind it, and not God.

reply to post by windword


I'm just dropping in to ask a question...

After that, there will be the "Great Battle" and Satan, "The Beast" will be cast into the "bottomless pit."

I'm not all that great with Bible material...so I'm asking sincerely...wasn't there already a battle with "the Beast" ??...I remember something about it from the scripture. And didn't God win and subdue the beast ?

I'm sure someone can quote some scripture about it...

reply to post by jmdewey60


That's an interesting take on it! It reminds me of a book by Orson Scott Card called Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus. Card, a Mormon, presents a scenario in which scientists, from the future, go back in time to shipwreck Christopher Columbus, which allows Native American civilization to reach maturity, and the enslavement of Native Africans never happens. Upon changing the past, the present is instantly transformed, not to perfection, but to an alternative future that Card posits as the "Rapture."


reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


I'm sure that you're correct. I'm not that good with prophetic scripture myself, and the thought of going back through the book of Revelations gives me a headache!

If something happens, it happens. Being prepared to weather a storm is good. I think that even a huge event could have less bad impact on us if we help each other out instead of fighting and stealing from others. The biggest worry of mine is that so many people are out for themselves nowadays. At least the church tries to keep people together as a group. They are even getting polarized, fighting amongst the religious groups, each thinking they are right. People don't understand, we have been living in the time of deceit for a long time now, deceit being the spawn of the devil. The rapture happened long ago.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by windword

 

. . . church environment, where it was taught that the "Rapture" would occur before the "Tribulation."

What would be the purpose of a tribulation?
How would it even be a tribulation if the good people were already raptured?

I believe that the basis is that it gives people one last chance to choose sides before the Final Judgement.

I'm not personally a believer in the rapture, as its scriptural basis is pretty flimsy, but if I did buy into it, I'd think that it would happen at the beginning -- God showing mercy on the faithful, as well as giving a very clear sign to those left behind as to which side they should be on.

reply to post by AQuestion


Is there a rapture? I looked and put the following scriptures together. And you have to ask yourself this. Where did all the people come from? They weren't there at the start of Revelation.

Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


It would appear to me that the rapture is part of the 6th seal of Revelation. And precedes the worst of the Apocalypse by a number of years.

reply to post by rickymouse

I think that even a huge event could have less bad impact on us if we help each other out instead of fighting and stealing from others

So you think you can avoid the rapture by being prepared ?

Now that would be real doomsday prepping

reply to post by adjensen

I believe that the basis is that it gives people one last chance to choose sides before the Final Judgement.

I don't think that there is a major 'end time' scheme that supports the idea that people get saved for a second rapture.
I think Revelation throws out several possible judgment scenarios and people can apply the one that fits their particular circumstance.
The main theme being, you can 'overcome' all the bad stuff that could ever happen but you have to be on the side of goodness and not accepting anything that is sinful for the sake of what you may imagine as an easy life in this world through acquiescence.

reply to post by ntech

It would appear to me that the rapture is part of the 6th seal of Revelation.

It doesn't explain how they got there.

The passage is full of metaphorical language so I don't see this as an actual event being described.
But more like the visualization of a principle that martyrdom joins the person who is killed for being a Christian, in a very mystical way, with Jesus, that makes them suitable recipients of the greatest gifts that God has to give.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by adjensen

 

I believe that the basis is that it gives people one last chance to choose sides before the Final Judgement.

I don't think that there is a major 'end time' scheme that supports the idea that people get saved for a second rapture.

No, I don't think that there is a second rapture (and, again, I don't think that there is a FIRST rapture,) I think that the most commonly held eschatology is this:

Rapture -- Tribulation -- Christ's Return -- Final Judgement -- Kingdom of God

There are a variety of "millennialist" perspectives that get worked in there which changes the order, but most people who believe in this figure the amount of time between the beginning and the end to be either seven years or a thousand and seven years.

Differing views, of course, but I think that the most commonly held one is that anyone who is alive during that period is judged at the Final Judgement, so someone who wasn't a believer at the beginning and wasn't raptured off could accept Christ during the time of Tribulation and be saved at the Final Judgement.

End times stuff isn't really my thing, as you know, but that's the perspective that I've seen cast about most commonly by those who are into it.

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
reply to post by rickymouse

 

I think that even a huge event could have less bad impact on us if we help each other out instead of fighting and stealing from others

So you think you can avoid the rapture by being prepared ?

Now that would be real doomsday prepping

Not being afraid of death is a way of preparing for death. If something happens and I die, I die. No big deal. Suffering on the other hand sucks.

reply to post by adjensen

. . . that's the perspective that I've seen cast about most commonly by those who are into it.

That's because that is the new world order agenda version being pushed and promoted by the powers that be to induce complacency and give support for their pet projects.
That gives that theory, that you spelled out, a high profile and gives the appearance that it is the majority view. A lot of people will go along with what seems popular, to fit in.
I would say that the majority view is that, if there is a rapture, it is in a hypothetical future that will never have any bearing on our lives directly.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Well, to be fair, by "majority", I meant the majority of people who believe in that sort of thing, not the majority of people in general.

And I have no idea what you mean by "New World Order Agenda" -- I've been hearing this stuff since the 1970s and cannot fathom a guess as to what its promotion among a minority of Christians would do to further said agenda.

reply to post by AQuestion


What if there is more that one "rapture"?

What if there is one in every phase of tribulation?

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