3 good questions for christians/creationists

reply to post by sacgamer25


If you believe God created every thing, then yes why wouldn't what we understand as good and bad not be apart of his creation, the Universe appears symmetrical and chaotic, nature seems cruel but necessary for survival, and yet we put rules on it, and then wonder why we are so confused, are we unique?.....yes but so aren't dolphins.

reply to post by greenfox86


Rules yes we have made it so hard. Paul said the one who lives by the rules/law will always be condemned by them. Can we ignore all the rules and just pursue love? The only purpose for rules is to punish those who break them. We are not meant to live by rules, they are not food for our spirit. We are meant to live on the nourishing love that our spirit craves. Man does not live on bread alone but by the very word/"love" of God.

reply to post by sacgamer25

a very true human insight into the natural world, love is probably one of those spiritual truths that can be proven by science, it is necessary and probably the best energy that can carry us into the future.

I'm sorry, but i am NOT going to read 13 pages, but I'll give it a go. (From a biblical standpoint, since from a Christian's standpoint, that should be the only answer.)

1. If you lived in another country...yes. Why? It depends on the heart.

Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

These people "felt" they may have been leaving some deity out, hence the altar. I encourage you to read the chapter for context, so you get the whole picture. (If you're sincere in your wish for understanding that is)

1.2 Not everyone that doesn't accept Jesus will goto hell. Now i KNOW I will be jumped on by every "Chrsitian" here, but I feel this based upon this one verse: Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves. Read romans 2 1-16 again for context.

God doesn't judge ppl that have never heard of his Son! What kind of righteousness is that?! These verses I believe "vindicate" this kind of obtuse thinking.

2. There are too many issues here at once (and I obviously can't answer them all) but lets take your first one;slavery.)
That person, who, if they're really "born again", has already in their heart laid their life down for Christ. They're dead already, to the things in this world, and working to save people from a literal hell, is paramount above all, including freedom. This slave could very well, by his life, example, etc, end up being a great witness to his "master" for his case for Christ, and ideally, end up seeing him "saved". (Which btw, is the great commission Jesus gave to ALL Christians, not just pastors or evangelists.

3. The stunt with Abraham, was prophetic. It was an archtype for what the Father would do to the Son. Isaac wasn't a "lil boy", Isaac was in his thirties, just like Christ. Furthermore Abraham had already had a promise from God that he would be "a great nation" THROUGH Isaac. Ishmael was not the chosen one, (despite arguments to the contrary by some religions), so Abraham knew he would be a "great nation" THROUGH Isaac. Point? God could EASILY resurrect Isaac from the dead, if He(God) reopened Sarah's wife's womb at the age of 90 something, raising the dead is no problem.

btw you are aware that the conversation with the "Angel of the Lord" was in fact the pre-incarnate Christ, right?

I noticed ALOT of misconceptions after these questions though; the ten commandments weren't meant to SAVE anyone. They were meant how morally depraved & bankrupt the human race is, and to show our need for a Savior in the first place!

And most Christians don't chery pick, most (sadly) are biblically illiterate. Difference.

Hope this clears things up.

I'll take a stab at this. Why not, it's my Friday night.

I am also LDS, but my belief is maybe a little existential compared to the stock answers you might get.

I believe in truth. There is truth in so many of the world's religious law: Thou shalt not kill, steal, covet, lie, adulterize (is that a word?). Obeying these laws creates evidence of the correctness of the laws. Stable families, communities, love for fellow man, compassion. You get the drift.

1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

If some chap in Nepal 1000 years ago lived his life devoid of even one mention of the name "Jesus," he would still live his life. He would face temptations to lie, cheat, steal, adulterize, maybe even murder. But if this chap recognizes the truth in treating others well, living those correct teachings he learned, if he grew to be a man with conviction and moral character...

...when he dies he will likely be in great shape. I believe when we die the million dollar question isn't "What religion are you?!" I believe the question is "Do you accept Christ's atonement?" Our chap didn't know anything about that, right? So he is given the opportunity to be taught the truth of what simply is. Although the concept is new and strange, having lived his life seeking truth, he can easily recognize and embrace the truth presented by the way it touches his heart.

Another soul from Tibet 1000 years ago, having lived life in pursuit of selfish gratification doesn't recognize nor embrace these self-evident truths. When his time comes he too will be given the opportunity to accept what simply is. But this guy, he wasn't really tuned into those good feelings. It is hard for the truth to resonate within someone who has denied and avoided it. He would be free to reject the atonement, and might very well do so.

But in my case (since I believe here in all this crazy religion hoodoo), should I choose to live my life in opposition to the truths I have known, rejecting the atonement in this life, I have made my informed choice and will not be afforded any "do over" on the other side.

2: How do you cope with the obviously wrong and horrible laws and statements in the bible? (How to treat your slaves and that it´s ok to beat them, women´s "right´s", that we have to stone people that wear two different fabrics and all that jazz). In other words, do you pick the nice points out of the bible and ignore the bad ones? Or do you accept everything in it?

A) That set of law was fulfilled with the coming of Christ, and is no longer in effect. It was a lower law. Christ ushered in the higher law, defined by love for others.

B) Have you read the OT? The Israelites were pretty boneheaded. And that's putting it mildly. Moses rolls em outta Egypt on a wave of giant-sized miracles, then PARTS A FREAKIN SEA, all by the power of Jehovah. How long did it take for these throwbacks to make a golden calf and start worshiping it? I hate to say, but maybe as a culture they required a ridiculously strict/every waking minute set of laws in order to survive.

C) What would YOU do if your woman wouldn't make you a Sammich? (ducking and covering as I type )

3: I personally would detest the god who pulled that stunt with Abraham and Isaac. Or the god who completely wipes out whole ecosystems including innocent animals, just because he doesn´t like the ways of men. I wouldn´t WANT that to be true.

A) The Abe/Issac parallel to God/Christ has been covered in detail, so I'll save you my windbagging here.

B) I'm a geologist, and in some arrogant way I think maybe I see time in a way more like God does. Do you realize how many ecosystems are wiped out gradually and/or suddenly by natural processes? The animals are easy: They do as they were designed, obeying God's commands to them (We're the hard ones with all this free will).
The necessary destruction of animals and ecosystems is but a moment in the fabric of this planet. Others will return and fill the niches, reproduce, adapt, populate, find balance. Nature recovers in it's due time. It truly is the arrogance of man to think that we could destroy all this. (Not to say we don't have a responsibility to take good care of it.)

Originally posted by greenfox86
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

a very true human insight into the natural world, love is probably one of those spiritual truths that can be proven by science, it is necessary and probably the best energy that can carry us into the future.

Isn't it interesting that he seems to be revealing his love to us at the same time our technology can prove the truth about his law of love. Also interesting that pretty much everyone agrees that if it does get any worse than this we will see Armageddon. Maybe that's not the ending God intended, maybe we can learn to love one another. If we could learn to kill one another how much easier it should be to learn to love one another. Could we be at a state of evolution or will it just be a few. I am dreamer, I think we are ready to move forward.

Good job OP this topic really blew up, I can't even find your last reply to me. If I find it I will respond.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
Hi guys,


I just wanted to get your take on a few points that always made me kind of doubt in the bible and it´s validity as THE holy book.

My intention here is not to step on anyone´s toes, but to try to understand how believers view certain things. Maybe I can learn something from you or at the very least I can understand your position better.

I would like to focus this thread on the following three points that kinda sum my doubts up.

1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

2: How do you cope with the obviously wrong and horrible laws and statements in the bible? (How to treat your slaves and that it´s ok to beat them, women´s "right´s", that we have to stone people that wear two different fabrics and all that jazz). In other words, do you pick the nice points out of the bible and ignore the bad ones? Or do you accept everything in it?

3: I personally would detest the god who pulled that stunt with Abraham and Isaac. Or the god who completely wipes out whole ecosystems including innocent animals, just because he doesn´t like the ways of men. I wouldn´t WANT that to be true.


Those are the three big ones that made me leave church. I know that the religion you choose is mainly dependent on what country you grow up in and what your parents believe in. And as not believing in another god is one of the 10 commandments, that means that the majority of the worlds population will go to hell without even a chance.

The second one is obvious. Most christians cherry pick, and the ones that don´t are in the westboro baptist church. What I would like to know is how you justify the selection for yourself.

And lastly, I regard the christian god as a pretty selfish and ego driven deity. I am sorry to be so harsh, but who in his right mind would want to follow a god who does atrocious things like that?


That´s it I guess. I just wanted to get that out there and see what you guys think about it. Again, no disrespect to anyone, but things are there to be discussed.

Oh, and if you have any questions for me (I believe in god and know science to be correct as well) feel free to ask anything you want. That road has to go both ways of course.

Let's see. I will reply straight to your questions.

1) I hope i would! All the true Christians, the ones who trully believe in GOD realize that they are very blessed as they were born Christians. For a Muslim, for an atheist, for a budist things are very difficult and it is very hard for them to find the Truth, to meet GOD. But that is the reason why our Church, the Orthodox Church, say that GOD is more pleased with the sheep who returns on each own to the shepherd than with the sheep who was always next to him and did not do something to bring back the lost ships! That is the reason why a Muslim, an atheist, a budist will get easier in the Paradise if he returns to GOD than the person who was born Christian.

2) You obviously are not aware of what Orthodoxy believes about the Bible. You should ask an Orthodox priest for more details about the subject. But for now: There are the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old is the history of the Hebrews which also includes the teaches and the lifes of the prophets. The New Testament is what Orthodoxy is based on. It includes the teaches of GOD, the teaches of Jesus Christ who said "he who is sinless cast the first stone" if that is who the english translations is. HE also said "We are all equal in front of GOD". Although i was born an Orthodox i made my research before i believe with my whole heart and soul to GOD. I tried to find out if things are as Orthodoxy say they are. And for me i found out that they are. Anyway, ask an Orthodox priest about this and he will explain you everything with details.

3) Again i say that you have obviously misunderstood the teaches of Church. If you were once upon a time a Christian, you would believe in the life after the death. If you believed in that life you would understand that the animals who die because of us are in a better place now! You would understand that the judgement of the Creator of the universe cannot be wrong! You would understand that HE took the animals HE took from this life in order to get them to the life they deserve to have, right next to HIM in Paradise.
For me, you were going to the church, if you were going, without knowing who GOD is! Maybe you have not be told that the Bible does not include all the teaches Christianity educates.

You wish to find answers. Then try to visit an Orthodox priest! You don't know who GOD is and you want to learn who HE is? Pray to HIM, ask HIM to show you the way to HIM and HE will show you the way! That's how i got back to HIM and that's why i thank HIM for HIS kindness.

Finally, you now believe that whoever believes in GOD is not right in his mind. They are not or you are lost???

reply to post by undo


That is all nice and all, but what on earth has all that to do with the validity of genesis? Or the theory of evolution even?

I feel that you´re jumping from one point to another.

Again, could you maybe sum up your view of what happened in a few SHORT bullet points? I still don´t know what you believe and the cloning and reptiles making love to humans bit kinda makes me doubt your credibility.

Originally posted by undo
the god of the old testament is more than one god.

Said no christian ever...

So, you DO believe in a whole different story, don´t you? Care to enlighten us? In a short way if you can manage?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Intriguing maybe, factual though? I doubt it.

Originally posted by charles1952
1: I might if I read enough, or met the right people.

2: Two points. "Obviously" wrong and horrible? What is your source for judging that, contemporary customs? The Bible is a collection of books. Some are poetry, worship instructions, history, songs, visionary and prophetic literature, etc. I accept everything that's in it for what it is meant to be.

3: Fine with me if you want to say your judgment is better than God's. But you might want to read the conversation God had with Job at the end of Job.

1: Surely you "might", but you have to agree that a child born in rural China to believing Buddhists will probably at least START as a Buddhist, right? But surely, I agree, you "might" meet the "right" people.

2: Do you need someone to tell you what cruel is? It´s funny, but I decide that for myself. And I think that these ones here are pretty clear:

"Wives, submit to you husbands as to the Lord"

"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel."

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.”

Do we need to go on? Do we need to talk about the churches view on homosexuality for example?

Surely you have to see these verses in the context of the time they were written in. And THAT means that is not the word of god, but most probably just the word of religious councils at the time. IF it were the word of the lord, then it wouldn´t be obsolete only 2000 years later.

3: Well, I guess I do, then. I surely don´t subscribe to that christian wrath and anger god, so I kinda do not see that as a problem.

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime

1: God doesn't care where you were born, and religion was created by men. Men are sinful and imperfect, and so is anything created by men. Anyone can become a Christian, regardless of where they were born, or what religion they were brought up in. Christianity is a lifestyle... it is a philosophy. It is not a religion.

2: I accept everything in the Bible, but I accept it in context. The horrible laws you mention were not the laws of God, they were the laws of men who thought, in their arrogance, they were acting on behalf of or in the name of God.

3: God was testing Abraham's faith. God created the Earth and all of the ecosystems, therefore God has the right to destroy it whenever he sees fit. You must realize that our physical existence here on this Earth is not important. What IS important is the eternal destiny of your soul. When you come to terms with that, what happens to you here on Earth will become inconsequential.

1: Uhm, no it´s not. Christianity is a religion. I know that most of you modern christians see it more as a vague guideline that says you should rather be good. But that is exactly my point. All of you have to cherry pick what you take out of Christianity or the bible.

2: So some laws in the bible are from god and some aren´t? Who decides which is which? And forgive me for being stubborn with this, but how can you accept the bible as the WORD OF GOD, and at the same time acknowledge that it was written by man in a "faulty" way? Or at least in a way that you can´t use for todays times anymore.

HOW can that be?

3: I have heard that here before, and I simply have to disagree. Christians do believe in a LOVING god most of all, right?

Well these actions are more suited to an angry human king. How can you defend these actions? Killing millions of innocent animals and humans?

And btw, and this is an honest question. What exactly did they do back then to deserve that mega genocide from god? I honestly do not really know details here?

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Nightaudit

 

Maybe God did create everything the good and the bad. In the bible God claims that he created everything good and bad.

Grace is Unconditional love, if you were born God loves you. Doesn't matter what you believe he loves you. Because the bible also says God is love.

Jesus came to prove that God is love, despite everything we see. The only way to prove this was to prove life after physical death. You see if death is the end, than it is not possible by our own understanding to reconcile that God is love. It is only when you accept that all you see is not all that is, that you can accept that even the bad things have served God's greater purpose for us.

You must deeply embrace the concept of life after physical death to accept that God indeed is love and has loved us from the beginning. This is probably one of the toughest things to have faith in.

edit on 18-4-2013 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

And in gods endless love he decided to kill everyone? That´s great.

I do acknowledge that the message of jesus is a good one, but I do not know how you can speak of a loving god in spite of his actions that do NOT contain forgiveness and love. Quite to the contrary.

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by Nightaudit

 

1. Impossible to know.

2. & 3. It doesn't matter what we think, because he's the creator. As creator, he has the right to do whatever he pleases. Furthermore, we have no idea what is best for him, or us, so truly, we have no right to say anything...

You should read Job - just saying.

1: No, it is not. Just look at the world. The probability of simply adapting to your parents religion is very high. Surely some people convert to other religions when they grow up, but that is besides the point.

2: So you just blindly accept everything? I do not really think that that is what makes us humans great.

reply to post by greenfox86


In a sense I think you are right. I do believe that A god created the universe, but just the way science describes it.

And indeed there seems to be good and bad almost everywhere.

Originally posted by schadenfreude

1. If you lived in another country...yes. Why? It depends on the heart.

2. There are too many issues here at once (and I obviously can't answer them all) but lets take your first one;slavery.)
That person, who, if they're really "born again", has already in their heart laid their life down for Christ. They're dead already, to the things in this world, and working to save people from a literal hell, is paramount above all, including freedom. This slave could very well, by his life, example, etc, end up being a great witness to his "master" for his case for Christ, and ideally, end up seeing him "saved". (Which btw, is the great commission Jesus gave to ALL Christians, not just pastors or evangelists.

3. The stunt with Abraham, was prophetic. It was an archtype for what the Father would do to the Son. Isaac wasn't a "lil boy", Isaac was in his thirties, just like Christ. Furthermore Abraham had already had a promise from God that he would be "a great nation" THROUGH Isaac. Ishmael was not the chosen one, (despite arguments to the contrary by some religions), so Abraham knew he would be a "great nation" THROUGH Isaac. Point? God could EASILY resurrect Isaac from the dead, if He(God) reopened Sarah's wife's womb at the age of 90 something, raising the dead is no problem.

1: IF that were the case, shouldn´t we see an even distribution of religions all over the globe? Why do you think that is not the case?

2: Did you honestly just try to justify slavery? So what about gay people then? Stone them to death?

3: Oh, so it´s ok for Abraham to kill his child "just" because your loving god wants to prove a point, because he could have resurrected him afterwards.

Yeah, that makes sense. I have to ask you one thing about this. Do you think that god needs to know anything? Needs to prove anything? Isn´t god all knowing and perfect as it is?

reply to post by blamethegreys


1: I agree with that more or less. I think what matters in life is more how you act towards others than what god you subscribe to.

2: Hehe I like to see some humor in here!

In all honesty though, I can´t really buy that. Let´s talk about the 10 commandments then, surely they are still in effect, right?

What about No. 2, 3 & 4? Can you honestly say that these still apply?

And as there is murder in the same list, I would have to assume that they should be rather important.

3: You´re a geologist? And as you believe in moses, am I right an assuming that you believe the flood story as well? And you´re a geologist? Maybe I assume wrong here, but could you tell me a bit more how that fits together?

Do you even believe in genesis as a literal story of creation?

Originally posted by Y10H5W6H5
Whenever someone tells me they are an atheist, I think, what a dumbass, he thinks everything created itself out of nothing...what kind of illogical mind does this person have, how deep is the darkness in them...what cause them to become so broken and lost...well, the answer is that the creation itself testified to them of His Eternal Power and Glory, but their sorry asses preferred LIes

Atheist destroyed Matematically @ anhundredandfiftyandthree.blogspot.com

I am not an atheist in case you got that. I DO believe in god, just not in the christian one.