3 good questions for christians/creationists

Hi guys,


I just wanted to get your take on a few points that always made me kind of doubt in the bible and it´s validity as THE holy book.

My intention here is not to step on anyone´s toes, but to try to understand how believers view certain things. Maybe I can learn something from you or at the very least I can understand your position better.

I would like to focus this thread on the following three points that kinda sum my doubts up.

1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

2: How do you cope with the obviously wrong and horrible laws and statements in the bible? (How to treat your slaves and that it´s ok to beat them, women´s "right´s", that we have to stone people that wear two different fabrics and all that jazz). In other words, do you pick the nice points out of the bible and ignore the bad ones? Or do you accept everything in it?

3: I personally would detest the god who pulled that stunt with Abraham and Isaac. Or the god who completely wipes out whole ecosystems including innocent animals, just because he doesn´t like the ways of men. I wouldn´t WANT that to be true.


Those are the three big ones that made me leave church. I know that the religion you choose is mainly dependent on what country you grow up in and what your parents believe in. And as not believing in another god is one of the 10 commandments, that means that the majority of the worlds population will go to hell without even a chance.

The second one is obvious. Most christians cherry pick, and the ones that don´t are in the westboro baptist church. What I would like to know is how you justify the selection for yourself.

And lastly, I regard the christian god as a pretty selfish and ego driven deity. I am sorry to be so harsh, but who in his right mind would want to follow a god who does atrocious things like that?


That´s it I guess. I just wanted to get that out there and see what you guys think about it. Again, no disrespect to anyone, but things are there to be discussed.

Oh, and if you have any questions for me (I believe in god and know science to be correct as well) feel free to ask anything you want. That road has to go both ways of course.

Worthwhile and tough questions!

reply to post by Nightaudit



1: Sure. After you are dead and know about him. But it will still be your choice to choose to follow Christ or not.

2: The "new" law is the one to follow. That would be Christ. He taught us to Love One Another, including sinners. And, yes, most people fall far short of that ideal.

3: For Abraham, it was a test of faith. The right thing happened, no one was killed, nor was it planned that they would be. God made the animals, and it is not to us to tell him what to do with them. And God saved the animals from the biggest disaster. At other times, they were...collateral damage. They are just animals after all.

BTW, I'm a Christian and a member of the LDS church. The first question is what turned me away from the church I grew up in. I, too, don't think that God would place the belief and faith in Christ as a requirement unless there was a way for everyone who never had the chance to know. This was especially true with regards to little children. There is no reason a baby needs to be baptized.

Originally posted by stars15k
reply to post by Nightaudit

 

1: Sure. After you are dead and know about him. But it will still be your choice to choose to follow Christ or not.

2: The "new" law is the one to follow. That would be Christ. He taught us to Love One Another, including sinners. And, yes, most people fall far short of that ideal.

3: For Abraham, it was a test of faith. The right thing happened, no one was killed, nor was it planned that they would be. God made the animals, and it is not to us to tell him what to do with them. And God saved the animals from the biggest disaster. At other times, they were...collateral damage. They are just animals after all.

edit on 18-4-2013 by stars15k because: clarity

1: So you are saying that it doesn´t matter what deity you believe in during your lifetime? How does that comply with the 10 commandments which you surely subscribe to? Forgive for asking here, but isn´t the whole point of the christian church to be the ONLY real faith? (I got that you are not a christian but a member of a different church, but that is not what this thread is about)

2: Who exactly sais that the "new" law is to follow and the old one not? And there are plenty bad things in the new testament as well. And is the old testament not the word of god? Only the new one?

It´s these inconsistencies that kinda make it all seem a little weird. There are people who pick this, there are people who pick that. Well what is the bible for then? Either it is the word of god or it isn´t, right?

3: So you agree that this is a good way to test ones faith? Would YOU want that happen to you? Do you have children?

And sure it is "his" creation in your view and he could do whatever he wants with it. It doesn´t change the fact that he acted more like an ancient king who is angry with his people than a loving god.

I wonder why that is...

Originally posted by Nightaudit
1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

I don't think i would because I am very skeptical about the official teachings of Christianity to start with in a Western country. Though I believe that the religion was designed for a very good purpose, I can't help but feel that somewhere along the line it has been hijacked.

2: How do you cope with the obviously wrong and horrible laws and statements in the bible? (How to treat your slaves and that it´s ok to beat them, women´s "right´s", that we have to stone people that wear two different fabrics and all that jazz). In other words, do you pick the nice points out of the bible and ignore the bad ones? Or do you accept everything in it?

The laws from the old testament were likely just the way things were and with that we should look to those laws and realise how lucky we are today to live the way we do. But who knows, maybe they were like that for a reason that we will never know about either. Omitting the bad parts is nothing but ignorant.

3: I personally would detest the god who pulled that stunt with Abraham and Isaac. Or the god who completely wipes out whole ecosystems including innocent animals, just because he doesn´t like the ways of men. I wouldn´t WANT that to be true.

The question is what god were they dealing with? There is good and bad always on the planet and if a bad person or god was to take the reins, there is nothing we can do about it. But i think we are talking about human gods because we are a destructive bunch right now.

And lastly, I regard the christian god as a pretty selfish and ego driven deity. I am sorry to be so harsh, but who in his right mind would want to follow a god who does atrocious things like that?

Maybe the God is actually the devil.. Who knows.

reply to post by Nightaudit


1. If you aren't a Christian, you'd never read the 10 commandments, so you'd never be able to follow them. How can God get angry at you for following a different God, only because you don't have the knowledge of Christianity? That's like if someone beat their child to death because it wasn't potty trained and pooped on the carpet. It foesnt have the knowledge yet. I believe God judges based on your actions toward people no matter the religion. That's why in most religions its bad to steal, kill, etc. Also people with no religion tend to feel guilty after doing something bad. That's an oddity.

2. Well of course the New Testament is the word of God, if it wasn't it wouldn't have been made.

3. No I wouldn't want that to happen to me, who would want it? I agree it is a bad test of faith, but God did not have him kill him in the end though. Satan on the other hand... I think Isaac would've been a gonner.

Originally posted by NorthBlizzard
reply to post by Nightaudit

 

1. If you aren't a Christian, you'd never read the 10 commandments, so you'd never be able to follow them. How can God get angry at you for following a different God, only because you don't have the knowledge of Christianity? That's like if someone beat their child to death because it wasn't potty trained and pooped on the carpet. It foesnt have the knowledge yet. I believe God judges based on your actions toward people no matter the religion. That's why in most religions its bad to steal, kill, etc. Also people with no religion tend to feel guilty after doing something bad. That's an oddity.

2. Well of course the New Testament is the word of God, if it wasn't it would have been made.

1: Well, that is exactly what I am asking YOU. How can a god be angry about that? But isn´t that the whole point of Christianity from day 1? Get baptized or you go to hell. Wasn´t that the whole point of the crusades?

This is the illogical part of it that led me to leave this church. Now you are saying "pssh, it doesn´t really matter anyway because what god would do that." Well, that is not how it works. That is what I mean with cherry picking.

Either Christianity is right, or it´s not. You guys keep doctoring around and adapting it to modern values. Well what is left then? Christianity has always said that it is the only way to heaven. You are saying it doesn´t matter.

Well, which one is it?

2: The new testament has been made...

It HAS been made by men. So there is that. Plus are you implying that the old testament is not the word of god? Is that the official position of the church as well?

reply to post by Nightaudit


1.No one said God was angry about it. It says "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." I believe it applies to Christians, as in a Christian shouldn't go and worship another god or false idols. I don't think it applies to people who have not read the 10 commandments. And the crusades were man made, it was killing and such based on what we believed to be right. God didn't command them to do it, in fact according to the bible, most people in the crusades would probably be in hell for murdering.

2. I hit reply by accident on last post and wasn't done, if you want to read the rest. But both testaments were technically made by men, they could have wrote in anything they wanted to. Hopefully that is not the case though. Some churches go by old testament, some new, so I don't think there is an official one. I'd say the new though because it seems to follow more of God's example of "be kind to your fellow man".

Originally posted by NorthBlizzard
reply to post by Nightaudit

 

1.No one said God was angry about it. It says "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." I believe it applies to Christians, as in a Christian shouldn't go and worship another god or false idols. I don't think it applies to people who have not read the 10 commandments. And the crusades were man made, it was killing and such based on what we believed to be right. God didn't command them to do it, in fact according to the bible, most people in the crusades would probably be in hell for murdering.

2. I hit reply by accident on last post and wasn't done, if you want to read the rest. But both testaments were technically made by men, they could have wrote in anything they wanted to. Hopefully that is not the case though. Some churches go by old testament, some new, so I don't think there is an official one. I'd say the new though because it seems to follow more of God's example of "be kind to your fellow man".

1: So you´re saying that it is ok to be a muslim or a buddhist and you still get into the christian heaven? Forgive for going on with this point, but aren´t you contradicting christianity at it´s core? Maybe I have never understood it right, but my interpretation of what the christian church taught was that christianity is the only way to heaven.

2: So the bible is not the word of god then? That is what I mean, it is so confusing! There seem to be dozens if not hundreds of little "versions" of Christianity around. Some believe this, some believe that. There is no consistency, or at least it seems to me that way.

3: I now read your answer in the second to last post. I am glad that you agree with that. I do not believe in Satan though as a literal being that actively tries to do harm. I think humans are very capable of that on their own.

reply to post by Nightaudit


1. Technically, yes. Because it is all you've known. It's like if you had a child that grew up as an orphan, then found you later and wanted you as their parent. You wouldn't deny you're child just because they had other parents for most of their life, would you? Churches are man made, I'm not saying they're bad or wrong at all, but they aren't perfect. I've always felt the way to Heaven is to just be kind to everyone, no matter the religion.

2. The bible is the word of God but again, since made by humans it cannot be perfect. Most of the message in the bible is about peace and respect.

3. Satan is a fallen angel so he's not pure evil, just a confused soul. He is used to test us, but that doesn't mean he is all evil. He does do bad, and he wants us to work against Jesus out of jealously though.

If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

Impossible to answer. Many women in other countries are not allowed to learn to read or get an education. They aren't even allowed out of the house without a male family escort. A lot of women aren't given the opportunities to learn about other religions and they aren't allowed to pick their faith or beliefs. They are just forced upon them. So, considering that many many women can't even learn about Christianity, I don't see how they can pick to be Christian. So the question is impossible to answer.

2: How do you cope with the obviously wrong and horrible laws and statements in the bible?

I don't consider a lot of the Old Testament to be from God. I think a lot of what was the general thought process at the time got transposed by the men of the age into the bible as 'God said ...' kinds of things.

3: I personally would detest the god who pulled that stunt with Abraham and Isaac.

I dont believe that God told Abraham to kill Isaac.
I think that's a mental health issue.

My thread on this -
ATS Thread - Abraham, True Prophet of God or Something Else?

Originally posted by NorthBlizzard
reply to post by Nightaudit

 

1. Technically, yes. Because it is all you've known. It's like if you had a child that grew up as an orphan, then found you later and wanted you as their parent. You wouldn't deny you're child just because they had other parents for most of their life, would you? Churches are man made, I'm not saying they're bad or wrong at all, but they aren't perfect. I've always felt the way to Heaven is to just be kind to everyone, no matter the religion.

2. The bible is the word of God but again, since made by humans it cannot be perfect. Most of the message in the bible is about peace and respect.

3. Satan is a fallen angel so he's not pure evil, just a confused soul. He is used to test us, but that doesn't mean he is all evil. He does do bad, and he wants us to work against Jesus out of jealously though.

1: Churches are man made. They indeed are, and I too felt that the right way is to be as kind to everyone as possible. It still contradicts the teachings of the roman-catholic church and the pope, doesn´t it?

2: I am sorry, but either the bible is the word of god (and therefore perfect) or it´s not. There is no middle ground.

3: I am sort of aware of the supposed history as a fallen angel. Do you think of him as an entity that exists today and is actively trying to harm people?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

1: ..., I don't see how they can pick to be Christian. So the question is impossible to answer.


2: I don't consider a lot of the Old Testament to be from God. I think a lot of what was the general thought process at the time got transposed by the men of the age into the bible as 'God said ...' kinds of things.

3: I dont believe that God told Abraham to kill Isaac.
I think that's a mental health issue.

1: Sure it is. The answer would be NO, you wouldn´t be a christian.

2: So you seemto be cherry picking. Is that the official position of the church/pope? That parts of the bible are not the word of god?

3: I would agree that only an insane person/deity would think of that as a good idea. The whole concept of that as a proof of faith is ridiculous to me.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
Hi guys,


I just wanted to get your take on a few points that always made me kind of doubt in the bible and it´s validity as THE holy book.

My intention here is not to step on anyone´s toes, but to try to understand how believers view certain things. Maybe I can learn something from you or at the very least I can understand your position better.

I would like to focus this thread on the following three points that kinda sum my doubts up.

1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

2: How do you cope with the obviously wrong and horrible laws and statements in the bible? (How to treat your slaves and that it´s ok to beat them, women´s "right´s", that we have to stone people that wear two different fabrics and all that jazz). In other words, do you pick the nice points out of the bible and ignore the bad ones? Or do you accept everything in it?

3: I personally would detest the god who pulled that stunt with Abraham and Isaac. Or the god who completely wipes out whole ecosystems including innocent animals, just because he doesn´t like the ways of men. I wouldn´t WANT that to be true.


Those are the three big ones that made me leave church. I know that the religion you choose is mainly dependent on what country you grow up in and what your parents believe in. And as not believing in another god is one of the 10 commandments, that means that the majority of the worlds population will go to hell without even a chance.

The second one is obvious. Most christians cherry pick, and the ones that don´t are in the westboro baptist church. What I would like to know is how you justify the selection for yourself.

And lastly, I regard the christian god as a pretty selfish and ego driven deity. I am sorry to be so harsh, but who in his right mind would want to follow a god who does atrocious things like that?


That´s it I guess. I just wanted to get that out there and see what you guys think about it. Again, no disrespect to anyone, but things are there to be discussed.

Oh, and if you have any questions for me (I believe in god and know science to be correct as well) feel free to ask anything you want. That road has to go both ways of course.

reply to post by Nightaudit


1. I'm not sure if it contradicts the teachings or not but if you look at baptizing I'd say, in a way, yes. But baptism is a way to make yourself one with the body of Jesus. Like when you drink the wine and eat the bread in church. Its a way to become closer with Jesus, I don't think you would automatically go to hell for not being baptized. What other ways did you mean? In case I misunderstood.

2. Well, it has to be both. Because there are parts of the bible which are God's words and there are parts which have been changed to fit what humans wanted it to. I'm just saying it's not perfect because man wrote it. If God could write his own bible and somehow send it to earth I'm sure some things would be the same and some would be different.

3. Yeah, I believe he is. Not because he likes to, well maybe he does. But I believe hell is his prison as well as ours. He sinned as we have and does everyday like we do by tempting us. Just my opinion.

1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

-Depends on what you feel is right and wrong. if you feel that is ok to kill for your religion and you have to reassure yourself your doing the right thing then no. but if your like many muslums converting right now to christianity because they dont agree that that is "wholseome religion", and then to face death over a decision like that. then yes.

2: How do you cope with the obviously wrong and horrible laws and statements in the bible? (How to treat your slaves and that it´s ok to beat them, women´s "right´s", that we have to stone people that wear two different fabrics and all that jazz). In other words, do you pick the nice points out of the bible and ignore the bad ones? Or do you accept everything in it?

its pretty easy. its called reading. you remind me of a little kid that reads half a book and then goes and then goes to write a book report on it. the teacher can clearly see that you didnt even read the whole book. its missing such crucial details. like the fact that God called that # out saying it was a wrong way to make people live. this is the whole reason for the dieing on the cross part. for all the sins of man.. not to mention the part your talkign about in the bible where those things are mentioned, it is aslo said because they were doing horrible things for their God molek which made him angry. does your dad not get mad at you if you do something horrible?

20 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. 3 I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. 4 If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, 5 I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek.

this is followed by a lot of that crap.
if you saw a guy beating the # out of his wife you wouldnt feel like killing him ?

3: I personally would detest the god who pulled that stunt with Abraham and Isaac. Or the god who completely wipes out whole ecosystems including innocent animals, just because he doesn´t like the ways of men. I wouldn´t WANT that to be true.

1 animals were here to be food. dont be such a puss to pull the poor defensless animals card. they have no emotions or souls or thoughts of right and wrong. they are just empty vessels. do you cry everytime you eat your cheeseburger? the pias of man is what God is aiming for. hence the storys of abraham and isaac. the lord tests your faith with things and if you can or cant handle them. sometimes your life is really #ty but Gods still there. you sound like you think of God as most people do with the (genie) approach. the old "why does anything bad happen if theres a god" and im always thinking "are you kidding me" its clearly stated in the bible that man is a sinner and will always sin (aka bad things will happen). so just knowing that how do people ask questions like this? people always whine about things like "why would God flood the world thats horrible, what a horrible God" what if he was doing away with dinosaurs to let other species flourish? who knows. to me science is Gods tool to make the world work. dont expect people not to die too and then blame it on God when they do. it kinda needs to happen. thats why we all do it.. this word isnt meant to be permanent

Originally posted by NorthBlizzard
reply to post by Nightaudit

 

1. I'm not sure if it contradicts the teachings or not but if you look at baptizing I'd say, in a way, yes. But baptism is a way to make yourself one with the body of Jesus. Like when you drink the wine and eat the bread in church. Its a way to become closer with Jesus, I don't think you would automatically go to hell for not being baptized. What other ways did you mean? In case I misunderstood.

2. Well, it has to be both. Because there are parts of the bible which are God's words and there are parts which have been changed to fit what humans wanted it to. I'm just saying it's not perfect because man wrote it. If God could write his own bible and somehow send it to earth I'm sure some things would be the same and some would be different.

3. Yeah, I believe he is. Not because he likes to, well maybe he does. But I believe hell is his prison as well as ours. He sinned as we have and does everyday like we do by tempting us. Just my opinion.

1: Well I agree with parts of that. I too wouldn´t think that just not being baptized is enough for going to hell. But why do you at least seem to overlook the fact that that seems to be what the church says. Or at least said for ages?

I am not arguing against god, I do believe in one. And I am not even arguing against the idea of some form of heaven, I would consider some form of afterlife to be possible.

What I am going at here is the possibility that the christian faith is as wrong or right as any other religion on earth. And you seem to have to adapt and change the christian faith quite a bit in order to still believe it.

2: Ok, I can understand that. I would have to ask then who decides what gods word is and what not. As far as I know the traditional view has always been that all of the bible is gods work, which was brought onto paper through human hands.

3: Hmm, ok. Would you say that hitler´s action for example could be attributed to a degree to the work of the devil? Or 9/11 or any other disaster? I really have trouble with the concept of the devil as a living entitiy that actively plots to harm humanity.

reply to post by MikeHawke


1: You haven´t answered the question at all.

2: No need to assume that I am a little kid that can´t read, is there? And again, you haven´t answered the question. The point is not how supposedly awesome the big picture is. The point is how you are able to not believe in the bad parts but value the good ones as truth.

3: If you think of animals of "just" food, then go on and live these values. The god I believe in values all of his creation and loves it. He wouldn´t destroy everything simply because on part of his creation is not behaving so perfectly.

And btw, he obviously would have killed a lot of innocent humans in the process as well. You may think that that is absolutely ok. I choose to believe in a god who values life though

Originally posted by Nightaudit
2: So you seemto be cherry picking. Is that the official position of the church/pope? That parts of the bible are not the word of god?

You think Christianity is an 'all or nothing' thing when it comes to the bible?
Guess what .. it's not. Christians can use their brains to decide what they
want to believe is from God and what they want to believe isn't.

YOU asked how people cope with the crap parts of the bible.
I answered it. The answer - I use logic and common sense.
What the pope or the Catholic church say about the bible is
irrelevant to me (and many other christians)

Since you brought it up .. THIS is what the Catholic Church teaches about the bible

reply to post by Nightaudit


1. Well again, the church is human made. Humans will believe something until proven wrong I suppose, we are stubborn. Look at Westboro Baptist Church lol. Just because it's a church doesn't make it perfect. Only God is.

2. I mean who knows? I guess we have to trust whoever wrote it that they didn't change anything to suit their agenda. Hope they kept it true to God's word.

3. I would say yes it is attributed to Satan's work. He tempts them to do things like that, through other people and such. Tempts them with power, money, lust, most of the things the commandments say not to do. But we have a choice in the end. Hitler didn't have to kill millions of jews or start major wars, and neither did the people behind 9/11. They gave in to temptation.

I hope you don't think I'm arguing or angry over here, unlike MikeHawke. Just friendly conversation on this end .