Protestant disinfo debunked-Catholics are also Christians

reply to post by truejew

According to the Scripture, angels were also created in the image of God.

It calls them ministering spirits.
I don't think that spirits have an image, at least not like people do.
You could argue that God would have to have an image if we were made in God's image but I doubt that it is meant to be in a purely physical way.
Angels do have the ability to be seen as having human form and I know that from meeting them in that way.

Originally posted by adjensen

That appears to be missing from my Bible. Chapter and verse?

Since there is only one God, God had to be speaking to the angels in Genesis 1:26. Since God says "our image", it would then be logical that the angels were also created in the image of God. Also throughout Scripture it is said that angels look like men.

Originally posted by adjensen

So you think some guy just sat down with some scrolls and scribbled down what was on the top of his head? God had nothing to do with the writing of scripture? If the Bible is either the word of God, or God inspired, then a Trinitarian, the Triune God, had a hand in it.

You do not think that Hebrew speaking people would know the Hebrew that the Scripture was written in and that God would let the Jews remain in error for thousands of years?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by adjensen

 

Well, you answered it incorrectly because you can't say "Let US make mankind in OUR image" really means "Let ME make mankind in MY image, and you guys stand around and watch."

It has been the Jewish answer to your question for thousands of years.

If a teacher writes a question on the board and tells the class "let's try this answer" does the whole class write the answer on the board or was it only the teacher doing the writing.

Again, your answer is not valid. If the passage said "Let us make mankind in my image", then your example might be appropriate, but that isn't what it says. Your problem isn't the first plural, but the second, unless you think that mankind was made in the image of angels.

According to the Scripture, angels were also created in the image of God. Again, those who wrote the verse were non-trinitarian, monotheists. They do not see a trinity there.

No they were not. That's absurd.

You think that it is absurd when the Bible says that angels appear as men?

reply to post by truejew


Where in the scripture does it show that Jesus taught indoors?

He usually taught out of doors, sitting on ground, sitting in a boat, walking around.

Why then do you have your services indoors and inside either a church or a home?

Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by truejew

 

Where in the scripture does it show that Jesus taught indoors?

He usually taught out of doors, sitting on ground, sitting in a boat, walking around.

Why then do you have your services indoors and inside either a church or a home?

I can take my iPad outdoors occasionally if you would prefer.

reply to post by truejew


Angels can MATERIALIZE as men. That doesn't mean they were created in the image of God.

There isn't a single verse in scripture that says angels were created in the image and likeness of God. That's a uniqueness of mankind.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Angels can MATERIALIZE as men. That doesn't mean they were created in the image of God.

There isn't a single verse in scripture that says angels were created in the image and likeness of God. That's a uniqueness of mankind.

Unless you have Scripture for that, I will continue believing what is seen in Genesis 1:26 while sticking to teaching one God instead of three.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Angels can MATERIALIZE as men. That doesn't mean they were created in the image of God.

There isn't a single verse in scripture that says angels were created in the image and likeness of God. That's a uniqueness of mankind.

Unless you have Scripture for that, I will continue believing what is seen in Genesis 1:26 while sticking to teaching one God instead of three.

What a hypocrite!

Where is the scripture you claimed to have stating that angels were also created in the image and likeness of God?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Angels can MATERIALIZE as men. That doesn't mean they were created in the image of God.

There isn't a single verse in scripture that says angels were created in the image and likeness of God. That's a uniqueness of mankind.

Unless you have Scripture for that, I will continue believing what is seen in Genesis 1:26 while sticking to teaching one God instead of three.

What a hypocrite!

Where is the scripture you claimed to have stating that angels were also created in the image and likeness of God?

I told you that it is what is seen in Genesis 1:26.

reply to post by truejew


It doesn't matter what you told anyone, it matter what the text SAYS.

That verse doesn't say that angels were also created in the image and likeness of God. You completely fabricated that tale. That's a unique characteristic of man and man only.

That's why you were challenged, you said that scripture said this and there is no such scripture saying that.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

It doesn't matter what you told anyone, it matter what the text SAYS.

That verse doesn't say that angels were also created in the image and likeness of God. You completely fabricated that tale. That's a unique characteristic of man and man only.

That's why you were challenged, you said that scripture said this and there is no such scripture saying that.

What is more likely... That the "our" refers to more than one god when the Bible says there is only one God? Or that the "our" refers to God and the angels, which is the Jewish view and even admitted by some trinitarian scholars?

Orthodox Judaism/What does Genesis 1:26 say in Hebrew?

reply to post by truejew

You do not think that Hebrew speaking people would know the Hebrew that the Scripture was written in and that God would let the Jews remain in error for thousands of years?

You seem to have a problem fully developing your arguments.
Maybe you have constraints where you only have a few minutes at a time to write posts.
I think your point is that if the Old Testament actually supported the Trinity, that the people reading it would have recognized that, and incorporated it into their religion.
I think that they did, but the concept only made it into writings that were not put into the Jewish canon.
There would have been enough of that sort of thought in Judaism to have the belief in a trinity so readily adopted into Christianity. (and you can ignore obvious Catholic partisans who try to suggest that their church invented the Trinity)

reply to post by truejew

What is more likely... That the "our" refers to more than one god when the Bible says there is only one God? Or that the "our" refers to God and the angels, which is the Jewish view and even admitted by some trinitarian scholars?

The ancient Israelites did not believe that there was only one God.
They believed that there was one sovereign god for their nation, the sons of Israel, which as the god of Israel.
Judaism today does believe in one God, so that throws people off when they try to understand the Old Testament.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by truejew

 

You do not think that Hebrew speaking people would know the Hebrew that the Scripture was written in and that God would let the Jews remain in error for thousands of years?

You seem to have a problem fully developing your arguments.
Maybe you have constraints where you only have a few minutes at a time to write posts.
I think your point is that if the Old Testament actually supported the Trinity, that the people reading it would have recognized that, and incorporated it into their religion.
I think that they did, but the concept only made it into writings that were not put into the Jewish canon.
There would have been enough of that sort of thought in Judaism to have the belief in a trinity so readily adopted into Christianity. (and you can ignore obvious Catholic partisans who try to suggest that their church invented the Trinity)

edit on 2-5-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

The only forms of Judaism that has a trinity that I am aware of are those who follow the Kabbalah, which is not true Judaism.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Snsoc

 

. . . but the work is not finished.

Holiness is pass/fail.
Paul, in the verses that you quoted in Philippians, is talking to the church, where the "you" and the "yours" in the English translation does not indicate that they are both in the plural, when in fact, they are.

Again, the context of the verse that you cited in Ephesians is the church, and not an individual. The church grows by God giving spiritual gifts so that the needs are met, with teachers and prophets, and all the other positions necessary toward that goal, being filled as parts of the body.

So you are 0 for 2 for backing up your theory with the Bible. My post, three posts up, was written after making some painstaking analysis of the most recent and best commentary on the book of Romans, covering verses 6:15-23.
What I think you are working with is a flawed analysis done four hundred and fifty years ago, by the reformers doing the early translations of the New Testament from the Greek.

edit on 1-5-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Well, you might have me there, because I don't know Greek, but the New Testament is replete with references that we have a race to win, flesh to overcome, works to do, growth to accomplish, fruit to bear, etc. All of this is unnecessary if our salvation is complete at conversion. Furthermore, many of these things are conditional. "IF we endure, we will reign with Him." "We will receive a crown of life IF we do not give up." (And i'm certain this "crown" is eternal life, not just some bonus crown that Christians who give up don't get to add to their heavenly trophy case.


And I agree. Holiness is pass/fail. As soon as you commit a mortal sin, you fail and are no longer holy. James 3:10-12 says you can't produce both good and bad-you're one or the other. Produce bad, and you immediately become no longer good.

The Bible is pretty specific that people who do certain acts don't go to Heaven. It doesn't say, "...unless you are Christian, then it's covered." Those acts cause an immediate fall from a state of grace, which is the Catholic way of saying "losing your salvation."

reply to post by Snsoc

And I agree. Holiness is pass/fail. As soon as you commit a mortal sin, you fail and are no longer holy. James 3:10-12 says you can't produce both good and bad-you're one or the other. Produce bad, and you immediately become no longer good..

Well, that's why when we fail we confess to the Lord. Scripture says when we confess to Him He is faithful and just to not only forgive us our sin, but to also cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The New Living translation is the only one that includes the words "to Him" in that verse. All of the others simply say we are to confess. See here: bible.cc...

We are commanded to confess to one another, (James 5:16) and the power of forgiveness is given to men.(john 20:23)

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by colbe

Where do you get the "angels" are creators with God? They're not, God created the "angels."

I did not say that the angels created since in verse 27 it was only a He who created. Only that He spoke to the angels. If the "us" referred to a trinity, the "he" in verse 27 would have been a they.

truejew,

You purposely didn't put up your words in quote cause that is not what you said. And you usually answer the tough questions and much longer explanations to show you the Truth of the faith (here the Trinity specifically) with one, sometimes two sentences. Yes, right you "didn't say."

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by colbe

 

I have typed on Genesis 1:26 before. The "us" is God and the angels.

First TJ, your words, repeating something you've shared "before." Then you said the word us "IS" God and the angels." Your explanation for "us", give proof God is referring to the angels and Himself?

Now your latest explanation for the plural "us" and "our" are God was SPEAKING to the angels. What does that have to do with verse 26?

God is talking about the Trinity, not the angels but our creator in verse 26. The Blessed Trinity is ONE God in Three persons. "He" in verse 27 is reference to the ONE God. There is the divine mystery in those two verses, you have to accept on faith.

Genesis 1:26
And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.

reply to post by Snsoc

Well, you might have me there, because I don't know Greek,

All you have to do is go to bible.cc and they give you the Greek analysis, and just learn as you go. People who don't bother to even look at a basic breakdown of the verse are at a big disadvantage when discussing them.

but the New Testament is replete with references that we have a race to win, flesh to overcome, works to do, growth to accomplish, fruit to bear, etc. All of this is unnecessary if our salvation is complete at conversion. Furthermore, many of these things are conditional. "IF we endure, we will reign with Him." "We will receive a crown of life IF we do not give up." (And i'm certain this "crown" is eternal life, not just some bonus crown that Christians who give up don't get to add to their heavenly trophy case.

I think so, too.

And I agree. Holiness is pass/fail.

The body of Christ is going to be holy. God will see to that. So I meant that in a corporate way. That was my point earlier, that sanctification is not a person's second phase of salvation, it is salvation of the entire entity of the church. It's a tough one that I am just getting to understand but I see it now as being the right way to see it.

As soon as you commit a mortal sin, you fail and are no longer holy. James 3:10-12 says you can't produce both good and bad-you're one or the other. Produce bad, and you immediately become no longer good.

See my comment above. Paul says things like, "If you are in Christ", and that is the thing, with him, and it means something and I think it has to do with dropping out or not. We should get encouragement from Jesus, he seems to be saying, by looking at the cross, which was his moment of humiliation and apparent failure, and how he did not give up and knew that he would eventually be vindicated.
Paul says that Christ was made sin for us.That's a tough one that a lot of serious scholars fail with but it just means exactly what it says. Sin is suffering and death. Jesus suffered and died, as if he really deserved it but he did for us. Why? Because we do and he goes before us so that we can be with him and also, eventually, to be raised with him.

The Bible is pretty specific that people who do certain acts don't go to Heaven. It doesn't say, "...unless you are Christian, then it's covered." Those acts cause an immediate fall from a state of grace, which is the Catholic way of saying "losing your salvation."

I think Paul mentioned those things because there were people who became Christians who had no sense of right and wrong because these were new concepts, not like they are now, where they are taken for granted. Back then, it was all about what you could take, and by any means.

Originally posted by Snsoc
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The New Living translation is the only one that includes the words "to Him" in that verse. All of the others simply say we are to confess. See here: bible.cc...

We are commanded to confess to one another, (James 5:16) and the power of forgiveness is given to men.(john 20:23)

Well the implication is obvious there. In another scripture it says against Him and only Him do we sin. No point in confessing sin and asking for forgiveness from so.some other than God who cannot forgive sin.