MSNBC Host: Your Kids Belong to the Collective

If that's what you mean, then thx for listening.

reply to post by pjfry

Straw man much?

I was strapped to that cart myself....and I made a success out of my own hard work, sweat, sacrifices, and so should everyone. I got no special treatment, ever. Did I sit an whine about inequity of life, no. I got off my ass and made my own success. Were there challenges, you bet! Did I lose to wealthy and incompetent people, you bet. But, I rose above that, and made a point to strive to make it in thew world, regardless of the steepness of that hill.

I expect no more and no less form anyone else...whoever said life was easy?

Originally posted by Krakatoa
reply to post by wildtimes

 

I agree it's broken, and I agree something needs to change. However, I do not agree that rampant socialism is the answer. Especially,m how it works so well in China dn the former Soviet Union. Yea, I want to work for 2.50/hr in sweatshop conditions, or wait in line for hours to, maybe, get a roll of toilet paper to share amongst the entire family for a month.

Socialism also fails since it does not take into account the human condition. And, has no place in our society IMO.

Socialism of western europe and "socialism" of eastern europe(the ex-warsaw pact nations) were day and night different. Socialism is a mixed economy in practical terms and communism is a full public econom where the people supposedly own the means of production and allow the state to run the operations. I say supposedly because it remains unclear to me if the state was acting as proxy of the people(shareholders of business) or as state capitalists.

In china the regime is still the same but communism has died and been replaced with authoritarian capitalism. The sweatshop conditions exist because the government is being controlled by the same people(bilderbergers) that control all the other nations. This is croneyism at its finest. The bilderbergers have to much money to respect local laws and the politicians are happy to be subservient to them. If the politicians are subserviant to big business then so is the normal citizen.

Marxism encompasses both socialism and communism. The only aternative is capitalism.

Originally posted by Krakatoa
reply to post by pjfry

 

Straw man much?

I was strapped to that cart myself....and I made a success out of my own hard work, sweat, sacrifices, and so should everyone. I got no special treatment, ever. Did I sit an whine about inequity of life, no. I got off my ass and made my own success. Were there challenges, you bet! Did I lose to wealthy and incompetent people, you bet. But, I rose above that, and made a point to strive to make it in thew world, regardless of the steepness of that hill.

I expect no more and no less form anyone else...whoever said life was easy?

Do you only care for yourself? If a nation is going to hell then it is imperative we think in terms of the collective just as much as in terms of the individual. You are the one making the strawman here trying to legitimise libertarianism because supposedly everyone can(or should) be just as motivated, educated, healthy, lucky as you are.

Capitalism can work but it needs to be regulated efficiently, balance the needs of the few with the needs of the many, laws need to be respected equally, we need a respectable manufacturing base to sustain our economy, we need to control illegal immigration.

Just because you are willing to get screwed does not mean everyone should be willing to get screwed. Some people are such diehard capitalists that they misinterpret everyone that dares to criticise faults. That does not make them socialists or communists. If someone criticises communism in a communist regime does that make them a capitalist or someone that wants to improve the system? Forget black and white as there infinite colors in between these polar opposites.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by Krakatoa
reply to post by pjfry

 

Straw man much?

I was strapped to that cart myself....and I made a success out of my own hard work, sweat, sacrifices, and so should everyone. I got no special treatment, ever. Did I sit an whine about inequity of life, no. I got off my ass and made my own success. Were there challenges, you bet! Did I lose to wealthy and incompetent people, you bet. But, I rose above that, and made a point to strive to make it in thew world, regardless of the steepness of that hill.

I expect no more and no less form anyone else...whoever said life was easy?

Do you only care for yourself? If a nation is going to hell then it is imperative we think in terms of the collective just as much as in terms of the individual. You are the one making the strawman here trying to legitimise libertarianism because supposedly everyone can(or should) be just as motivated, educated, healthy, lucky as you are.

Capitalism can work but it needs to be regulated efficiently, balance the needs of the few with the needs of the many, laws need to be respected equally, we need a respectable manufacturing base to sustain our economy, we need to control illegal immigration.

Just because you are willing to get screwed does not mean everyone should be willing to get screwed. Some people are such diehard capitalists that they misinterpret everyone that dares to criticise faults. That does not make them socialists or communists. If someone criticises communism in a communist regime does that make them a capitalist or someone that wants to improve the system? Forget black and white as there infinite colors in between these polar opposites.

I see, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. If you want to pay for someone to live for free, go nuts, do it, but don't expect a thank you for your kindness. I do my own part to help other when I can, at my discretion, and am offended when attempts are made to force me to do that. So please, don't try to impose your version of life on others via public legislation. You cannot (nor should you) legislate morality. I worked hard for what I have, I pay my taxes to help pay for others that do not....I respectfully refuse to coddle or otherwise enable the freeloading lifestyle. Do people need temporary help at times, of course (that is where our taxes for this supposed to go). Should families make a career out of living off of the pain and sweat of others? No.

I would never trust a community to raise children, when the parents of those children should be the guiding force. If you wish to hand over your kids in this matter, there is nothing stopping you, just don't expect everyone else to pay for it in your place either.

reply to post by Krakatoa


I think you really sum it up in your post. Charity should be charity. Meaning that, it should be willingly given. This liberal mindset of "mine is yours" needs to stop. Any of these welfare or homeless people can go out and work 2 fast food jobs and live the life they want. Instead it's entitlement. They deserve to be taken care of. I'm sick of it.

Take taxes to fix the roads, bridges, etc. That's fine. Don't force me to feed the poor. The poor can work and feed themselves. And don't force me to fund a war. You want a war? Suit up and GO! Stop sending everyone else's kids to do your dirty work.

You got to love these politicians. "we need to go to war with so and so" but I, nor my kids will be fighting this war. REALLY? If you declare war in this country you should have to sit on the damn front lines of it. Period! I don't care how old you are. If you think this nation should go to war, and you vote YES, then YOU should stand there on the damn front lines. Cowards.

reply to post by Krakatoa

Person C knows both person A and person B (in some form), and the two path they see end at the same destination. Which do you think they will naturally choose? The harder road fraught with sacrifice and hard work, or the other where everything is provided for you freely by the collective.

That is assuming a lot. Person C is basically lazy and exploiting the system, because they have (like a sociopath) figured it out.

Those who work hard for their success are not lazy. They have CHARACTER, which is greatly lacking in some parts of our society, due to faulty parenting and basic laziness.

We can teach our kids to work hard and earn their way, or to sit back and let the government give us 'handouts', wring their hands about us, and feed us.

The problem is those who choose the latter and teach their children how to do it, too.

reply to post by Krakatoa

The socialist approach provides no incentive to succeed on your own merit, but the live to meet the level of mediocrity. I work with many former east-German and former soviet workers (as well as other nationalities that lived in a socialist environment), and they will tell you the same thing.

You are talking about communism. Not socialism. In pure socialism, people are rewarded according to their contribution, but NO ONE is left to struggle and starve. Gha.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Krakatoa

 

The socialist approach provides no incentive to succeed on your own merit, but the live to meet the level of mediocrity. I work with many former east-German and former soviet workers (as well as other nationalities that lived in a socialist environment), and they will tell you the same thing.

You are talking about communism. Not socialism. In pure socialism, people are rewarded according to their contribution, but NO ONE is left to struggle and starve. Gha.

No, I am talking about socialism that takes into account the human condition. Last I checked, the old East Germany and USSR were socialist on the face of it (the second "S" in USSR does stand for Socialist). The govt own the means of production, right? Yeah that worked well for the USSR now didn't it? With no real incentive (in practice, not theory mind you), the workers went only as far as they needed to follow direction and receive their pay. Since, exceeding that would result in a redistribution of that wealth to the less fortunate. You see, socialism sounds OK on paper, in theory. However, anyone who works for a living should know that theory and implementation/reality are rarely in perfect sync.

Was it any wonder, technically, the USSR was about 10 year (or more) behind the west in technological advancement with that kind of "dedication" from the workforce?

Thanks for nothing but suffering Mr Karl Marx. But not thanks, I'll take my chances in a free market society.

reply to post by Krakatoa

They may have called themselves 'socialists', but they were communists. Two different ideologies.

reply to post by wildtimes


Yeah, like they are soooooooooooo far apart, when the Socialist God, Karl Marx, at an 1847 conference of the Communist League in London (of which he was a prominent theoretician) he and Friedrich Engels wrote a declaration of their position, a little thing known as, "The Communist Manifesto".

reply to post by Krakatoa


Friend, do some real research and learn what you're going on about. Socialism and communism are different philosophies, and often confused. There is quite a bit of 'socialist' activity already in place in the USA - schools, infrastructure, subsidies for the poor and elderly....NONE OF IT is communism.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Krakatoa

 

Friend, do some real research and learn what you're going on about. Socialism and communism are different philosophies, and often confused. There is quite a bit of 'socialist' activity already in place in the USA - schools, infrastructure, subsidies for the poor and elderly....NONE OF IT is communism.

I see what you did there, a little deflection. I guess you aren't prepared to admit this basic fact I've stated? Typical.

reply to post by Krakatoa

Krakatoa, you are mistaken. Look up 'socialism', learn all of its various forms, and compare it to 'communism.'

They are different philosophies, and no amount of insulting me is going to change that.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Krakatoa

 

Krakatoa, you are mistaken. Look up 'socialism', learn all of its various forms, and compare it to 'communism.'

They are different philosophies, and no amount of insulting me is going to change that.

Yup, more deflection. I guess this discussion has ended.

reply to post by Krakatoa


Really? I guess your search for the truth and education has ended.

Deny ignorance.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Krakatoa

 

They may have called themselves 'socialists', but they were communists. Two different ideologies.

Its ironic that both the nazis and soviets called themselves "socialists" but they hated each other enough to go to war and have millions killed over which form of socialism is better. In reality the nazis were the true socialists and the soviets were the communists.

Communism IS evil to most folks that are not braindead, because they have no freedom whatsoever. They all work for the state in one enormous collective. I have a feeling that USSR was not even communist, more like state capitalism of using the proxy clause as an excuse for the elite to milk the workers for every last penny and be "god" rulling over them.

Sure the nazis were evil as well but in different ways. They were too racist and too much into imperialism. I like national socialism to an extent but not nazism. What we have today is international capitalism where the World Bank and Bilderbergers exploit and coerce with ponerology. International capitalism has killed many millions via proxy wars in an unspoken or downplayed manner, so we are supposed to believe capitalism is good and socialism is bad. The brainwashing has been very effective thus far!

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Totally agree with you. It's the conglomerates, the big banks, and the focus on 'share-holders' rather than customers that wrecks the whole thing.

Thanks for your thoughts and reply.

reply to post by Raxoxane


But it doesn't take a village. Unless you want a bunch of village idiots running around. It takes loving parents who actually give a darn about their children.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Let's actually read what this woman, a progressive liberal, has to say and see whether or not what you claim is true.

Memorable quotes

In an MSNBC promo, Harris-Perry is quoted as saying:

"We have never invested as much in public education as we should have because we've always had kind of a private notion of children: Your kid is yours and totally your responsibility. We haven't had a very collective notion of these are our children. So part of it is we have to break through our kind of private idea that kids belong to their parents, or kids belong to their families, and recognize that kids belong to whole communities. Once it's everybody's responsibility, and not just the household's, then we start making better investments."

en.wikipedia.org...

First of all, she even mentions the "private idea" that kids belong to their parents, which btw they don't really BELONG TO parents but do BELONG WITH parents... Second of all she CLEARLY mentions that we should have the COLLECTIVE idea that CHILDREN BELONG TO EVERYONE/STATE... This is clearly communism, and it does show that progressives are more akin to true socialists and communists than to anyone else.

As to whether this shows progressives have a similar mind to Hitler's... Well, Hitler thought the same about kids, that they belonged to the state. For crying outloud he implemented the Hitler's Youth program or movement, to the point that children were being brainwashed that they should even turn over their parents if they said and or did things AGAINST THE SOCIALIST/FASCIST STATE... So are "progressives" akin to socialists/fascist as Hitler? you betcha. Just because people don't want to admit to this fact, doesn't mean it isn't so.

The fact that progressives nowadays think alike to socialists/fascist who followed Hitler says the truth to the path that the "progressive mindset" really takes us and society as a whole.