The Islamic takeover of Europe/World.

Originally posted by Mclaneinc

I beg to differ, Muslim families especially the more radical ones tend to have 6 - 8 children, they do this in both the deprived area's and in the welcoming arms of European countries etc. Having spoken to many radicals I can confirm that they are told to not work and to claim what they can and use the resources of the host.

So yes, by numbers they will over come, as for working, not going to happen, what average man can afford to feed 8 kids as well as pay rent and taxes, many of the immigrants also are under educated and many do not speak English either at all or to a useful degree so are literally unemployable.

The radical trend and teaching is to spread Islam across the world until it is one large Muslim caliphate.

That means by any means possible, and the radicals DO mean it.

You really must stop applying Western ideals and procedures to a culture that still dwells in centuries gone past.

This is just a load of unsupported stereotypes dressed up as an argument. Where is your evidence for

- the numbers of muslims who are radicalised
- your supposition that as islamic countries and muslims in Europe become more prosperous their demographics won't change
- the numbers of muslims who work

?

Because in my experience there are very few radicals. They do exist but the aren't mainstream. And I know lots of muslims who work and don't have "6-8 children". You sound like you're getting your information from an old copy of Der Sturmer and just changing the word "Jew" to "Muslim".

Originally posted by Taz2122
We are a species divided into different races.

Um, might want to check your science there. There's no such biological category as "race" and there's no criteria for dividing humans along such lines. People are a shifting aggregate of colours and looks, but those aren't 'races'.

By your logic there are no dog races either, then?

Um, no. Unless you count Swindon, Romford et al.

Originally posted by JuniorDisco

Originally posted by Taz2122
We are a species divided into different races.

Um, might want to check your science there. There's no such biological category as "race" and there's no criteria for dividing humans along such lines. People are a shifting aggregate of colours and looks, but those aren't 'races'.

By your logic there are no dog races either, then?

Um, no. Unless you count Swindon, Romford et al.

Swindon, LOL

Originally posted by JuniorDisco

NY Times says you're wrong. 46 stoppages and 27 fines in the first month:

It well publicized that some examples would be made in the first year and they were, but - that was then.

I am trying to not get dragged too deeply into this because I am obviously unable to remain neutral- my daughter lives next to one of those No Go zones on one of those links. She has to witness a lot of scary stuff, and I have to worry about her.

But I wonder, even if you do not believe the state of things here coming from those that live it, why do you feel they should be able to break laws (like covering the identity in public) that the others in this country cannot? I find that curious.

You realise that this boilerplate you're spouting about them all being on benefit is standard racist nonsense?

What I realize is that you take what I say and twist it as if it were standard racist nonsense. Exactly the way the guy in another thread has been accusing me of being an extreme liberal Socialist-Communist, and the other thread where another has called me an Islamist apologetic

I said religion has nothing to do with the clash in France between french and arabs, I explained it as a deep intertwined history between these peoples, culture clashes and cultural identity struggles with the youth of immigrants. I specifically said I was NOT refering to Muslim fanatics (though eventually I think they may be indoctrinated by such groups that will take advantage of these conflicts).

.... and yet you still characterize me as talking about fanatic muslims burning Bibles?

These stats have been well published everywhere, though the latest dates of studies are from before the flood of immigrants from countries like Egypt and Syria in turmoil. So we can be sure they are too low.

But just from Wikipedia alone-

Au total, immigrés (5,3 millions) et descendants direct d'immigrés (6,7 millions) sont, selon la définition de l'Insee, au nombre de 12 millions en 2008, soit 19 % de la population

D'autre part, 30 % de la population métropolitaine âgée de 18 à 50 ans est soit née hors de la métropole soit née d'au moins un parent né hors de la metropole

fr.wikipedia.org...

Several were exactly the "young second generation arabs" you were talking about. And do you really believe that a majority of them don't have legal jobs? Again I'd be amazed if you can find a source for that beyond your own bitterness.

Apparently they were not the ones I am talking about.
I have had to work next to one of these No Go zones. I got to know a number of the "racaille" there that I am talking about. -None of them had real jobs, although they drove luxury cars. For the most part they were making a living selling drugs and contraband. They do not hide this fact- even the police know who is dealing what, but since the police cannot enter those areas, they can brag about it openly without fear of trouble.
Twice I walked out the back at night to find myself in the middle of deals between gangs happening in the alley;

When they had a marriage in the neighborhood, it was traditional that they shoot off guns- and there was always a few Kalichinikovs- those are illegal in this country. It is only through illegal activities that one can get them.

Also, you seem to be conflating second generation arabs with immigrants. You realise that someone born in France and with French citizenship is not an immigrant?

Yeah, I used the words "second generation immigrants", and it is not correct. I am talking of people born in France.
Though they say they are not french (surely if you've been here you saw the slogan "Nique les français"? That is written and said by people who are legally french) . I think it is important to stress that they are children of immigrants, because I think that is probably the key source of their psychological trouble with identity and culture.

My own children are in the same position, one of them was even born in the US and does not have french nationality. He is called the american by everyone, and yet he has no memory or knowledge of the US- all he is told here is "you are not one of us". I am compassionate to the struggle of these kids-turned-hoodlums.
My kids have had less trouble because of the different past relations between these peoples, and the similarities of our cultures.
But it is not because I am sympathetic that I can condone the way it is expressed, or pretend it isn't happening.
Reading this again, I realize I didn't get around to pulling up links for "proof" (not that any would convince you) . I guess I don't feel like trying. I welcome you to continue believing there is a huge conspiracy, to make the world think that France has struggles within concerning it's Maghreb population.

I didn't read the thread yet, but judging by the title, it appears that you are trying to compare Islam to a group such as the Nazis. Islam is a religion not a political party, therefore Islam itself is not trying to take over the world. It is a person's choice whether or not they become Islamic. As I said before I did not read your thread nor do I plan on it because if it has anything to do with your title, it is just a ridiculous topic.

Yet a different message from Turkish EU Minister.

Islam is ‘Europe’s reality’, says Turkey’s EU minister
Responding to recent controversial comments by French far right politician Marine Le Pen, Turkey's EU Minister Egemen Bağış said Monday that "Islam is a reality for the European Union" and Europe against "burying their heads in the sand". By Hürriyet Daily News (text) Islam is a reality for the European Union and Europeans won’t get anywhere by burying their heads in the sand, EU Minister Egemen Bağış said yesterday.

“It is Islamophobia rather than Islam that is visible in France and across Europe,” Bağış said, referring to French far-right leader Marine Le Pen’s recent statement that Islam was “more visible” than before in France. “We know Ms. Le Pen’s statements on Turkey and our values but we don’t care too much."

LINK

This is ofcourse after France re-kindled with the head scarf/veil issue.

The debate about Islamic headscarves which gripped France in 2004 has been reignited by a controversial court ruling.

President Francois Hollande, a Socialist, has backed cross-party moves for further curbs on headscarves.

Muslims have reacted with dismay to demands for a new law, which followed a ruling by France's highest court of appeal last month.

France has the largest number of Muslims in western Europe - estimated at between five and six million.

The Court of Cassation ruled that an employee of a privately-run nursery who was sacked for wearing an Islamic headscarf had been unlawfully dismissed.

The Socialist government was quick to warn of a threat to the "principle of secularism", which "must not stop at the nursery gate".

LINK2

reply to post by hp1229


I am no fan of Le Pen, but she had mentioned Islam as being "more visible than in the past." I think that is an accurate assessment, and acting as if it is a racist and derogatory statement is irrational.

I understand that the questio of the face covering is difficult for some people to grasp. In the beginning, I was against the proposal, until I researched the issue further- and also in gaining a better comprehension of the cultural values of this particular country.

"Laicism" is one of their biggest values- they truly think that a nation of many different religions can only cooperate and work well together if everyone keeps their religion a private affair- you share it at home, or at your places of worship, but when in the public mixing areas, everyone puts it aside.

Not many Americans know, for example, that Christians are not allowed to wear a large cross or crucifix in these areas of collectivity, Jews are not allowed their Yarmulkes or kippahs, Sikhs their turbans. Only small symbols can be worn, if they can be placed underneath clothing,(a small symbol on a necklace, for example).

And yet, you hear no cries of victimization from these groups... mostly because they accept the concept of secularisation- the separation of religion and state. These other religions remain religious only whereas Islam is a politico-religious ideology.

This is the where the issue is not just one of religious freedom.`

I guess I better repeat my misclaimer before the next person comes along to twist my assertions and opinions-

-I do not believe that Islam is the main problem and conflict currently happening in France.

-I observe that France has a cultural conflict happening with the descendants of it's arab immigrant population concerning cultural identity, values, and traditions.

-I observe that some fanatic Muslim groups have been able to indoctrinate young arabs there, taking advantage of that discontent and confusion (as in the case of Mohammed Merah). I suspect they will continue to do so.

-My tentative opinion on the evolution of Islam in general is that it will be the next most powerful religion of the world, and will do so in the same ways the Christian religion did (often with violence, force and manipulation), mainly because that is effective.

I also suspect that, as Christianity did , it will become less fanatic as it disperses and spreads through the populations. As the witch burning and self flagellation toned down, so will the stoning of rape victims and martyrism of Islam.

But I also suspect that this is a cyclical process that takes a long period of time, several generations, and just as then, the non-religious cannot escape the upset in the society at those times.

reply to post by Bluesma

-My tentative opinion on the evolution of Islam in general is that it will be the next most powerful religion of the world, and will do so in the same ways the Christian religion did (often with violence, force and manipulation), mainly because that is effective.

Those days are long gone (Forcing the religion upon the masses by violence, force and manipulation) Major powers/bankers will not let that happen. With the innovations and military advancements of many nations, this will be very very difficult if not impossible. Strategic and International think tanks/studies in many countries have their plans/chess game laid out for the next 100 plus years just the way it seems at times it was done for this century or the last one during and after WWI and WWII IMO.

reply to post by hp1229


You might be right. I don't know. We tend to think our society has evolved past such behaviors and mechanisms.... but I am not so sure.

There are the famous "1%" the modern demi-Gods, worshipped as having ascended beyond the duties and limitations of human societies, both feared and admired, in the religion of Money.

Will they protect the masses from the God of Islam? Can they? This is the question we shall yet see, I guess.

(I mean tthat a bit tongue-in-cheek, I hope that is understood- sorry if I offended anyone)

Originally posted by Bluesma

Originally posted by GrandStrategy
the muslim takeover is just Christian scaremongering.

Atheism is and is going to continue to be the true victor in Europe.

I sure wish that was true.
All my atheism didn't do jack schit against the homemade bombs that blew out my livingroom wall tho.
Religion is just the tool being used as justification for traditional invasion and take over that humans have enjoyed doing forever.

I personally think that you could take away the religion, they'd just find another excuse to do it. Look- Communists tried that, and they still found excuses to do this stuff! Religion is not the source of violence and abuse of power, human nature is.

Interesting idea, but there's no truth to it, it's just a tired cliche wield out by polite agnostics.

reply to post by ManFromEurope


Your views are charming, too bad they are so out of touch with reality..the muslim nations are not hiding the fact that they are trying to take over europe by immigration and birth rate..there are enough vids everywhere of leaders preaching to huge crowds to move to europe and make as many babies as they can untill the sharia law is enforced..im afraid france has given away their country..rest of europe may follow..im israeli so i will automatically be accused of racism..but im not..i hate religious fundamentals of all kinds..including jewish ( maybe mostly cause they are closer to home) but the sharia law doesnot tolerate anyone who is not enslaved to their violent ways..but time will tell...and it will tell it soon..wait for it

Who gives a crap about, 'calls for Sharia Law'? There are people right now, in this country, calling for a retrun to Nazi Fascism, racial seperation, the overthrow of the US government, etc, etc, etc. That's what people do. They complain, They suggest, They protest. Some are nuts. Some want extreme measures. Some are dangerous. But, the various ramblings of a very small percentage of people in this world, our country, your neighborhood, are next to meaningless. Sharia Law' has jnot been put into place in any Western European country. It's adoption is not being discussed by any Western European country. Posts like yours are nothing more than rable rousing fear inducers. I hope you get the attention you're seeking, (and the help you potentially need).

reply to post by asen_y2k


"Now its 2.2%, but what happens when its 15 or even 20%. Fertility rates amongst Muslims is generally higher than the local population. Maybe you will not see their rise, but your children will definitely see that day."

You can say what if about a lot of things. Just how many years would it take for the 2.2% to reach 20% (Still a minority)

I suggest you move home and try and get over it. Your mind is in a bad space.

I live in the heart of a Muslim community and you would never know apart from the call to prayer from the various mosques.

reply to post by ispyed


Do you know how long it would take? Were not talking months obviously..but if the everage european family has 2 kids (its actually less but lets say) and the everage family of islamic immigrants has 5 ..can you do the math?

reply to post by asen_y2k


I can tell you this, that kind of organized take over would not happen here in Southern Maryland. They are here, but take low profile. America was founded on religious freedoms but were not blind to this type of take over. It would be fraught with dangers for any Muslim group trying this. Most states would not put up with it.
I've been watching this "take over" in France, England, Sweden. I'm frankly shocked governments are not stepping up. I did see Australia take action where the PM actually spoke out telling Muslims that if they didn't like the rules in Australia, they were free to leave. I think the world needs to start pushing back a bit harder against this obvious attempt to push archaic, out dated religious dogma.

All this is just absurd. Instead of pulling random numbers, here is the real data-

According to the Pew Research Center, Europe's population was 6% Muslim in 2010, and is projected to be 8% Muslim by 2030.[15] Don Melvin wrote in 2004 that, excluding Russia, Europe's Muslim population will double by 2020. He also says that almost 85% of Europe's total population growth in 2005 was due to immigration in general.[24][26] Omer Taspinar predicted in 2001 that the Muslim population of Europe will nearly double by 2015, while the non-Muslim will shrink by 3.5%, if the higher Muslim birth rate persists.[27] In the UK, between 2001 and 2009, the Muslim population increased roughly 10 times faster than the rest of the population.[28]

A 2007 Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) report argued that some Muslim population projections are overestimated.[29] Philip Jenkins of Penn State University estimates that by 2100, Muslims will compose about 25% of Europe's population. Jenkins states this figure does not take account divergent birthrates amongst Europe's immigrant Christians.[30] Other analysts are skeptical about the accuracy of the claimed Muslim population growth, stating that because many European countries do not ask a person's religion on official forms or in censuses, it has been difficult to obtain accurate estimates, and arguing that there has been a decrease in Muslim fertility rates in Morocco, the Netherlands and Turkey.[31] A Pew Research Center study, published in January 2011, forecast an increase of Muslims in European population from 6% in 2010 to 8% in 2030.[15] Pew also found that Muslim fertility rate in Europe would drop from 2.2 in 2010 to 2.0 in 2030. On the other hand, the non-Muslim fertility rate in Europe would increase from 1.5 in 2010 to 1.6 in 2030.

en.wikipedia.org...

So the estimate is between 8% to 12%-14% in 2030. If muslim growth rates don't slow down as people think they will- ( from some numbers I found on the internet)
Total muslims in Europe in 2010 - 44 million
2.3% growth rate (current)- population in 2050
109 million muslims and 650 total- 16% population
2.7% growth rate (maybe if immigration does not stop)
127million muslims and 650 million total- 19.5% population

You people can't be honest even on internet
Enjoy the truth

a world full of Islam..FML..the way they treat women is horrible..it just disgusts me..It's great to see these ladies when they leave their country and say come to mine they are joyful and laughing and having fun as kids..It's when they're so isolated and brainwashed that is the problem with Islam..and to make things worse, is how Islam is such a peaceful religion yet, it doesn't seem that way..Maybe, before it got tweaked so much..and what's with these idiot suicide bombers or "terriosts" ruining it for other Muslims, they are really nice people..But some, take their country with them when they come here and do bunch of crap, they need to ADAPT to my country, this CANADA don't bring your crap here. You should be greatful to experience "freedom" and enjoy your selves and start a new life without that crap where women can't have fun or can't eat in the same room as men..Gees, if I try that with my GF I'd be on the couch for awhile haha.

reply to post by xavi1000

Powerful videos. I'd hate to be his life insurance man.



A general philosophical question. We all know that cultures are different, do we accept the idea that one culture can be better than another culture?

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly


sorry for the late reply...

that's exactly my point.

It wasn't the point you made before. You were trying to say that muslims are going to be in a majority because they 'outbreed' Christians. You seem to have changed your point now.

There aren't any. And why is that you think ? Islamic culture has been around as long as the Christian...so why haven't any of the Islamic countries gone out and made economic progress in such way as to make them world player ? Why are all those Islamic countries practically borderline poor...I'm not talking about Oil Sheikhs...but a country in general....it's people.

A huge variety of factors, religion being only one. Climate, urbanisation, industrialisation being far more important.

I may be wrong statistically, but name me one Islamic country that has high rates of immigrants

Dubai. But again, it's not germane to the discussion.

My point is..."praying mantis states"...will never get to that stage of progress that you speak of...simply because...it is not secular enough. Hard core religion and true economic/technological progress don't go hand in hand.

Religion acts as a brake, I'll give you that. But in any case

- you were talking about muslims in western states. They are statistically getting better off. And that suggests their birth rates will slow

- events in the arab world are more complex than you allow. Radical islam is certainly an issue, but to pretend that Saudi Arabia, say, will look the same in 30 years to how it does now is I think very naive. Chances are that if it continues to get richer its birth rate will drop.

Edit - I actually just looked up the Saudi birth rate. It's only 2.26 and has been steadily dropping. Which doesn't fit your idea about demographics and islam at all.

But as I say that wasn't your point anyway.

Western world has somewhat (not entirely, but to a degree...we can claim to have separated state and church) broken free from that influence, thus...those nations have made more progress.

I see no such thing happening to Islamic countries...

I doubt you've bothered to look.