So in a SHTF is this allowed...really????

reply to post by saltdog
First of all, in a true SHTF situation there is no right or wrong, there's only survival. If you can't defend what you got, it isn't yours. If my family is in need of something and I find out you've got what I need, If I can take it from you, I will. SHTF just means survival of the fittest.


Second. Accusing someone of being lazy because they are on social assistance is just ignorant. You don't know what that posters personal situation is. To me, you sound like someone who's never had to go without. Try showing a little respect.

Originally posted by saltdog
See the funny thing is..I was curious about the mindset of people that are saying that whatever they see, they can take or have.
Thats good to know, that people really feel like that, and would be honest about it now, and openly admitting that they are living off the system and just because you worked for something and bought it (but wait you just got it first, it doesn't really belong to you) that does not make it yours....very interesting train of thought.

I am now happier than ever...atleast now I can grasp the type of mindset, that the people have, that will be doing this....and the world would be a better/safer place without them...thats really good to know.

You have given me reasons to be thankful..thankful that I have more pride, self esteem, and a sence of self worth...it is amazing. Thank you.

Do you think you are a better person than those who require social assistance? Really!

Honestly, If you are not willing to take what is not yours when the SHTF, your chances of surviving are slim or next to none. Good luck with that.

its not about STEALING to CLARIFY its not about seeing others With and Attacking - Robbing for personal gain either its more like SCAVANGE to SURVIVE whatever you can find to support.

Question? as well as Conscious Scrubber- If you have not survived in 3D (based on YOUR Personal AWARNESS LEVELS understandings) but your goods supporting YOUR Current SPECIES have allowed Others from Your Species to Survive. Do you still feel the same as previous? then asked now? as far as sharing goes or is something being missed here?

Internal question.

reply to post by saltdog


Saltdog, the original poster, is discussing the morality of breaking and entering / theft after the SHTF. But let me give you a non-shtf example of that.

Back in 2006, I worked out in Dutch Harbor / Unalaska in the Aleutian Islands. One weekend, three of my co-workers borrowed our Supervisor's boat to go fishing in one of the many remote coves around the island. So they pulled the boat up to a beach, tied it off to a chunk of driftwood and went looking for a good spot to cast their lines from shore.

Several hours later, the tide had come in. And the driftwood they had tied the boat to had drifted out to sea along with the boat. So they were trapped in the middle of nowhere. If you've ever been to Dutch Harbor, you are probably pretty familiar with the highly impassible terrain. So they were stuck.

The three of them weren't sure which direction to go, so they picked a direction and started walking. It was slow going. But the benefit was that at that time of year, the sun didn't go down until around midnight. But the temperature dropped to around 30-degrees Fahrenheit. It was cold.

The three men finally came across a remote cabin. They had to strip down and cross a very cold run-off river to get to it. So they did. And hypothermia was starting to set in. They got to the cabin and broke in, in order to survive. The cabin was fully stocked with food and other supplies. So it pretty much saved their lives.

They had no ill intentions. They just didn't want to die. Luckily the cabin also had an emergency radio. They were able to contact the coast guard and were eventually picked up. They did leave all the cash they had and an apology note in the cabin.

On top of that, the boat was also found drifting a few miles out to sea, just by chance. So my supervisor wasn't too upset about it.

reply to post by Darkmask


The human species is better off without people who think like you. Survival of the fittest? Those that survive will recognize the importance of the group and group interest for protection and so on. Your lone wolf, I'll take what I want, will just get you killed. And if that's the attitude you bring then well maybe we are all better off without ya.

Survival of the fittest indeed. Maybe you need to figure out what fit is ...

well, a couple of things here...

in a hit the fan scenario the gov will seize all transportation/fuel/food

Hoarding will again become a criminal act (in times of national need it is not only immoral but a depraved soul that would deny another so that they can survive instead.)

Safety in numbers? Why not just join up with a street gang then? The math isn't that hard to figure, one mouth one meal, 100 mouths, 100 meals - each day. How long before the hunter/gatherers of your party have to venture out further to try to find game or another poor sap who happened to have but was in the wrong place at your time?

When will those "finders" figure out that their best chances are by leaving you all behind, waiting for that food to be put before them.

You justify yourselves with claims of survival but what about the other guys survival? What happens when there is no more food to steal? Don't you think that survival of the fittest (law of the jungle) will dictate who then should be nourished and who is too old, or fat, or blind, ... add any infirmity including the common cold because if it were a pandemic htf scenario it is doubtful any of you would simply trust the other.. .you already suspect each other.... and would willingly stab each other in the back so you can have "yours"

So what happens when all that is left is each other? Will you eat your gang because of your sense of survival instinct? Would that instinct end at cannibalism?

IMO if it hits the fan, I would rather be as far removed from all of you as I could get. Feeding and supplying for a few is a lot easier than trying to maintain a group with a false sense of security of numbers.

Armies march on their stomachs. . the strategists plan for a march. Stealing from Peter to pay Paul never worked and how many Peter's would you kill or keep killing so you will have what you want?

There is no quenching an insatiable thirst and survival dictates you want as much as possible.... all of it if possible. (That is ensuring survival)
Your best chance of survival in a shtf time is in a third world country. One that grew up without and learned to accommodate themselves or suffer for their lack of vision. Also probably the only place some invading force wouldn't even care about... it is poor.

Kind of sad really just how much greed there is in the hearts of men. What line of decency wouldn't you cross?

If the worst goes down........
theres safety in numbers as long as they are well led and well armed.....
People tend to be and do stupid that gets them killed when all bets are off and the law is whats in your hands....
That sonofabiatch cutting my cow is never gonna see what hit him......no matter...
But remember a man can only cover as much land as the soles of his boots....so dont get greedy or careless.....
Things like greedy, careless, tired, disoriented,or lost,wounded or hurt...dehydrated or froze....
They can all get you dead pretty damn quickly....
I really dont expect more than 10 % or less to survive the depradations of their neighbours etc....so those comming out of the city are either really mean fighters or very lucky indeed.....anyone comes close to me or mine and they will bite the big bullet before ever hearing a hello..................

Never underestimate anyone... Especially in a WROL situation. Laws are only as good as they can be enforced. Civility is a facade that can disappear entirely within 72 hours or less. I really don't think most peOple in the US can grasp what it would really be like. We have a bountiful existence where even the uneducated, unskilled, lazy, etc are well taken care of compared to that of the world scale. It is easy to think clearly now and hand out your moral judgement, but that will be tested on a daily basis post SHTF. This is already a depraved world we live in, candy coated to look like Disneyland. Once you get past Mickey Mouse, there is the underbelly which we've been afforded the luxury to by and large ignore. There's so many different variables that it's really impossible to truly answer such scenarios as they are presented. Sleep deprivation alone will dramatically alter your reasoning skills. As I said in the beginning... Don't underestimate anyone. Prepare and pray... That is the best anyone can do at this point!

reply to post by anoncoholic


I hear and read about all these claims that the government will claim all transportation, food, communications, and so forth. And it is somewhat true. But then, the majority of it is just not physically or logistically possible.

Point in case, there are currently about 4 million federal employees, including the 1 million serving on active duty in the military. Whereas there are about 315 million civilians spread out over 2,959,064 square miles. There are just not enough government employees to effectively lay claim to these things. Especially if there is an economic collapse. At which point, there would likely be even less federal employees to do the job.

What they could feasibly do is take control of the nations communications and fuel supply. Everything else is questionable. There is too much farm land. Too many herds of cattle, sheep and hogs. And too many stubborn Americans that wouldn't be willing to give it up.

In a SHTF scenario there would be areas of anarchy (mostly from those ill prepared) and areas of respect for others out of mutual cooperation (small communities of prepared people who share in their mutual security and survival). Property (including foodstuffs and animals) will be protected but the rules of engagement will likely be that many will use deadly force even tho their lives were not threatened directly. Many will be ripe for the camps after a month of SHTF conditions.

GREAT topic, and I'm gonna add my .2 to it
I know I wouldnt be able to survive in a SHTF scenario, esp if it happened while I had my son.my #1 goal would to be to protect him. I figure I'd join up with a larger community to ensure our safety.

reply to post by HomerinNC


That is a good plan. But why would they take you? It's a bit presumptuous to simply assume that they would allow you into whatever community you flock to for food and protection.

reply to post by allenidaho


Well, I'm a pretty good shot with a firearm, know how to hunt, and I was a former paramedic so medical skills would always be a plus in any community

reply to post by saltdog


OP..

If you have a family pet, you love it. No doubt. But have you ever not eaten for 10 days? Your brain does not function in the same way. If you go 10 days without food, you'll eat your pet.

reply to post by saltdog


You create a well stocked, well powered cellar. Alternate power, plumbing, stores for food and ammo.

Then on top of it, you place a burned out, gutted trailer. Put a rotted carcass over the stoop.

If you're not a target you don't have to worry.

reply to post by beezzer


Thats funny and true!

...maybe place your bug out cellar under a tofu store?

reply to post by allenidaho


Good thoughts, and mine as well. However, I will say that the (mainstream) food supply can also be confiscated and/or controlled.

Points of entry for foodstuff into the country. Distribution centers, ie: Walmart, Target, Shaws, Kroger, Food Lion, etc, DC's. The government already controls the large farms, via Monsanto et al.

Those that survive will be the smaller farms that have good defensive capabilities. Enough people to do ALL the work, but not so much that would strain the supply. 2 or so acres for crops. Fruit trees, whatever the climate allows. Enough grazing land to support animals, plus acreage to grow hay and corn for winter feed.

I would think approximately cleared 30-40 acres. Big enough to support the community, small enough to effectively patrol. All building, crops, and livestock kept to the center, open fields of hay and corn outside of center. Woodland beyond it all to supply firewood and building materials (and slow expansion).

Most important. The fortitude to take the lives of those that wish to steal. The compassion to, at the least, temporarily assist those in need. The wisdom to know the difference.

Originally posted by HairlessApe
reply to post by saltdog

 

OP..

If you have a family pet, you love it. No doubt. But have you ever not eaten for 10 days? Your brain does not function in the same way. If you go 10 days without food, you'll eat your pet.

And 15 days with out food, you will eat your children or anyone else that you can get your hands on.

well if i had to join up in a groupd of say..... 40 people or so. thats a lot of hungry people. is it MY job to go out and hunt for supplies every day to sustain 40 people? yeah right they will farm and dig wells. another group of 40 better armed people will take it away.
and when im out hunting for canned goods in cellars, and snaring rabbits, you think i will drag it all back to that 40 people i barely know, just to be eaten by the end of the weekend? my odds are better putting myself in hiding with that 40 days worth of food for 1-3 people.
and even then i risk having it all taken away, so i must always be on the move then?
well how does a group of 40 keep on the move when they "have to" eventually. the government will block off neighborhoods, ban travel in or out of cities, take our supplies. and they will go for the biggest groups of people that have it all.

i think a group of 6 or so seems perfect. enough to defend and move and carry. enough to sustain when things are tight.

If it becomes a bugout scenario, I'll be tucking away along the Back River in Nunavut.

Come and get me... if you can.



PS - Don't forget your thermal long underwear.