"That's the beauty about Free Will..."

reply to post by Dark Ghost

God is therefore taking an unnecessary risk by bestowing Free Will on its subjects, as that privilege can lead to widespread pain, suffering and death.

You seem to be making the supposition to the above question that: 'people' are 'created', and that the entity or thing that created them is all knowing, including the future, of all eventualities, and not just the possibilities and implications, but exactly what will definitely occur, to the smallest detail, forever.
I just don't believe that something so horrific as that can possibly be accepted as a given without any sort of backing whatsoever except an assuming of the worse thing that could ever exist, by the wildest imagination, that somehow it just has to be true.
If somehow all that was true, then "free will" could not possibly exist in your hypothetical universe as you have defined it.
My suggestion would be to chuck all those presuppositions and start over, and taking an approach to it that would end up with something that could actually make sense.
Are you just a tiny blip on the universal scene, something that couldn't matter even if you were part of a crowd that numbered in the trillions? Yes, or No?
If, Yes, then we are so trivial that we are not even worth discussing.
If, No, then lets see of what significance we really are:
Does the universe only exist in order to suite us?
If so, then are we beings that don't just dissolve away into a mist, never to be remembered? Then the universe itself would be closer to being accurately described as such, than we could be.
OK, so if we are these eternal beings who live in a universe that is designed only for our own personal use, and that we will exist long after this material physical world ceases to be, then we existed before it did.
If we are these eternal beings who existed before the universe, a universe that exists only for our use and enjoyment, then is it not possible that we created it ourselves?
This is the only way that "free will" could exist, in my opinion.
That we accepted the risks: of possible "widespread pain, suffering and death".

reply to post by Akragon

IF God can see all the possible outcomes of a person's life... and still lets people make bad choices... Either God has a plan, which is for each person to learn by his own free will... OR God is sadistic and cruel...

I could argue either point... depending on what kind of God one believes in.

Why would you assume that God can see "all the possible outcomes of a person's life"?
Do you think you should believe that to be true because someone told you that the Bible says so?
If you look for 'supporting' verses, what you will find is something about Israel, meaning that in two ways, the person who later became renamed that, originally, Jacob, and the nation of Israel, which were made up mostly by people considered by themselves to have descended from him.
Once Israel the nation was virtually destroyed by first the Assyrians, and then the Babylonians, then there was prophetic rhetoric circulated that promised a restoration, and basing that on the fact that God chose Israel while still in Rebecca's womb, over his twin brother, Esau.
That's a nice way to feel special, if you were someone feeling low self-esteem after your country is devastated and it looks like your God has rejected you as a people.
It's prophetic rhetoric that takes a certain poetic license to make a point, and not something to build into this great doctrine of how God knows everything you will do in your lifetime, before you are even born.

reply to post by Hopechest

God is omnipotent and God made the world. Therefore he knew every decision people would ever make and how they are going to end up.

Omnipotent is a word.
You may find it in your Bible, even.
It ends up in the New Testament a couple places. It comes from the Septuagint which is the Greek version of the Old Testament, something the NT writers read (reading and writing, themselves, in Greek) and quoted in their own writings.
The actual Greek word that may or may not end up as omnipotent in your Bible (depending on which translation version you read) is pantocrator, which the Septuagint makers substituted for the Hebrew word, El Shaddai.
That title was given by Yahweh to Abraham to say that He had authority to decide who would live in the land where he had jurisdiction over. So the term was something that expressed the concept of sovereignty.
Going back to the word, pantocrator, sovereignty is one of the definitions, and probably the best choice, for example if the NT writer is quoting a OT passage that could possibly have said, El Shaddai, if he was dealing with the Hebrew version.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Dark Ghost

 

God is therefore taking an unnecessary risk by bestowing Free Will on its subjects, as that privilege can lead to widespread pain, suffering and death.

OK, so if we are these eternal beings who live in a universe that is designed only for our own personal use, and that we will exist long after this material physical world ceases to be, then we existed before it did.
If we are these eternal beings who existed before the universe, a universe that exists only for our use and enjoyment, then is it not possible that we created it ourselves?
This is the only way that "free will" could exist, in my opinion.
That we accepted the risks: of possible "widespread pain, suffering and death".

edit on 15-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Bingo!
This is the scenario...

A99

reply to post by Hopechest


If the following statement is true
"Every sin by every person committed on earth is part of Gods design."

God does not design sin and error, so..... "every sin....is God's design"
is incorrect due to the fact that WE deviate from God's design and God's
plan by way of and use of FREE WILL.

Because, before a creation is made, God would be aware of ALL decisions such a creation could make

God didn't create human beings to get surprised for he will not be surprised. He had many intentions including a new creature which can teach angels. (according qur'an)

This creature can learn willingly and can choose to use or neglect his.

This creature has many uncovered capabilities that only those who follow instructions know what they are. ( their amount of knowledge and the directions are different )

So , Humans are semi discovered beings who don't care about what they are.

reply to post by Dark Ghost

I disagree. The potential to commit evil would not be there, so there would be no pain and suffering (UNLESS God willed his creations to be this way).

You see because we have free will evil exists... Everyone is free to follow "the path" or stray from it...

And pain and suffering is unavoidable my friend... we live in a chaotic world in which everything without exception decays and dies... Pain and suffering is part of the process of life.

This is the problem: we know there is potential for creations to commit great evil to themselves and others, so why give creations the opportunity and take the risk?

Our world is a place of learning... How could anyone learn if there is no potential to go against the grain?

It's possible that it's all part of a grand plan, but this does not dismiss the fact that God allows pain and suffering to occur to many of his creations.

Not many of his creations.... ALL of his creations...

Now if you're talking about why "good" people die or are killed for no reason... Or even disease... Karma explains that perfectly...

reply to post by jmdewey60

Why would you assume that God can see "all the possible outcomes of a person's life"?

I didn't say this is something I believe... I said IF God sees all possible outcomes

Do you think you should believe that to be true because someone told you that the Bible says so?

Im not Christian my friend... I don't let anyone tell me what to believe, or what the bible says... or the correct interpretation of certain passages... i read, then decide what it says, free of any religions silly dogma

It's prophetic rhetoric that takes a certain poetic license to make a point, and not something to build into this great doctrine of how God knows everything you will do in your lifetime, before you are even born.

In fact i presented an argument which no one had any answer to on a previous thread...

IF God knows the outcome of everything in existence... then he also knows who is going to "hell" (which i don't believe exists anyways)... IF God knows who's going to hell before said person is born... Why would God let that person incarnate if that person is already doomed?

Makes no sense

reply to post by Hopechest


One grows not by time but by learning what they have done wrong and God may know ahead of time but it's you who has to learn from them and you will be amazed at how bright it is when you have over come the dark.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
If Free Will does indeed exist, there is very little beauty in it. Sure, on face value it seems generous that God would allow his creations to make their own decisions, but at the end of the day it is pointless. Why? Because, before a creation is made, God would be aware of ALL decisions such a creation could make. This includes the ability for creations to take part in behaviour that is detrimental to itself, its environment and other creations. God is therefore taking an unnecessary risk by bestowing Free Will on its subjects, as that privilege can lead to widespread pain, suffering and death.

People often use the following rebuttal: "but if there is no Free Will then we are just robots!". What these people fail to realise is that even with Free Will, they are still robots - only more advanced robots.

i agree with the statement that we are highly advanced robots. The beauty of the illusion of free will is to put a fire in an individual's belly. What our perception of free will allows is the ability to divert from our paths, yet the diversion is still a part of the path.

Think of your life as a straight line and all the infite dots within that line as a milestone. Free will allows a dot to go outside that line, and if tthat were to happen, you reach a cycle that you must break out of to reach the next milestone. If you fail to break out of a cycle, you kind of continue the cycle until the lesson is learnes. Heres an image that i drew to illustrate my theory:



this in mind' free will does and does not exist depending on who you ask.

reply to post by akushla99

"Life is a Mighty Joke. He who knows this can hardly be understood by others. He who does not know it finds himself in a state of delusion. He may ponder over this problem day and night, but will find himself incapable of knowing it. Why? People take life seriously, and God lightly; whereas we must take God seriously, and take life lightly. Then, we know that we always were the same and will ever remain the same.......the Originator of this joke. This knowledge is not acheived by reasoning.
But it is the knowledge of experience."

~ Meher Baba

reply to post by Dark Ghost


The Bible has made it clear that "God" is all-powerful in every sense of the phrase. This is accepted in churches all around the globe. He is omniscient and omnipotent, they say. He has no equal. Let's break it down for the members of ATS. In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:

1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.

2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.

At any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made.

In this sense, free will is an illusion for every single creature and object that isn't "God". All choices pass through his screening process before we are ever aware of the opportunity to make those choices, but we think we have free will because we can't miss a choice we never had. And "God", knowing this, is laughing all the while.

I look at it like a circle of dots. If you see the whole circle, you can choose one at random and count all the way around until you reach it again. But if you only see a small portion of it at a time, twenty dots become an infinite number because your perception leads you to believe that there is still more dots to be followed. Because of your limited perception, you remain ignorant of the reality of the circle, and you chase yourself in circles for your entire existence, because you never realize you're tracing the same path. Now say a loop extends from that circle, leading back around to it. You follow that loop and you believe you've found an entirely new circle. Sometimes, it changes color just to sustain that illusion. But it's still the same circle.

That's called the illusion of free will. You see it everywhere, if only you can peek outside the little box of your limited perception. It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

According to the above system of logical deduction, which operates under the assumption that the Bible is fully accurate, "God" is the only entity since the very beginning who has ever possessed true free will. All else is determined by his choices, every second in every single space of existence throughout the universe. We are the puppets in the stories he writes. And if we don't play our roles as he wills it, then we are condemned. Because that makes us broken puppets. And his palace has no room for broken puppets. He has already said this.

I don't know what you've been reading or listening to, but if the Bible had lead you to believe that you have free will, then you have not read it well enough. Critical thinking is a very useful tool when it comes to the small print. And there is a lot of "small print" in the Bible.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by akushla99

 

"Life is a Mighty Joke. He who knows this can hardly be understood by others. He who does not know it finds himself in a state of delusion. He may ponder over this problem day and night, but will find himself incapable of knowing it. Why? People take life seriously, and God lightly; whereas we must take God seriously, and take life lightly. Then, we know that we always were the same and will ever remain the same.......the Originator of this joke. This knowledge is not acheived by reasoning.
But it is the knowledge of experience."

~ Meher Baba

'Meher Baba lives again'

Logic is paperfolding...an obsessive/compulsive activity that eats itself, the more you fold - to self-consumption...Ourobus can eat its own tail, and then what?

...and while logic is necessary for knoeledge, many are seen 'shoe-horning' knoeledge into logic to fulfill the logic...and knoeledge gained through experience cannot be folded or shoe-horned to fit anything...if this were the case, all experience would be logical and there would be no questions to answer...No paperfolding, no shoe-horning...

...and knoeledge is individually experienced - but some paper-fold, and others see the simplicity of the blank sheet (unfolded)...the forest, instead of the trees (which is what a forest is comprised of)...

There is no amount of logic that can compel any individual to alter a position gained through paperfolding...the paperfolding was chosen through FREE WILL, and is only testament to the mechanism...

Essentially there are only three positions...FREE WILL, limited FREE WILL and no FREE WILL. Limited FREE WILL is a misnomer, an excuse (shifting of position to tacitly admit doubt in the position - shoehorning).

Citing 'the illusion of FREE WILL', is, playing the mecahnism of FREE WILL, by admitting that you are aware of an illusion that can be compared to a position of non-FREE WILL...this can only happen using the mechanism of FREE WILL...any other scenario does not require the faculty of recognition of difference, and difference is chosen using FREE WILL mechanisms, otherwise there is no need to have a discriminatory faculty to recognise it...

Robot brains/consciousness' are difficult to construct, because, the faculty to discriminate at the level we do is immense...(robots are not paper folders or shoehorners)...it, for them, does not compute, because there is only command line, no FREE WILL...fuzzy logic attempts to mimic FREE WILL processes but fails (if not because a vital 'piece' is missing)...

Time to grow up...

A99

Originally posted by RobertF
reply to post by AQuestion

 

Of course people have free will and are responsible for their choices. None of us know what we are destined for.
But our path has already been chosen.
God is omnipotent and God made the world. Therefore he knew every decision people would ever make and how they are going to end up. He could have designed the world where everyone followed him or nobody did or some of the people did.
Either way, he came up with a design, looked at it, and said it is good. Although we don't know the outcomes he most certainly does. Every sin by every person committed on earth is part of Gods design.

robert f
Your statement negates free will. Specifically "But our path has already been chosen". If a path has been chosen and seen to be true by a power outside of our own...that is not "free will". that is pre-destination.
If you would have said "But our path has already been scene" then yes i could agree with your assertions of free will.

Our path is chosen by ourselves so does not negate free will. When you incarnated you are following a path to your own enlightenment, designed by you (your previous selves that existed here). This is a reincarnational precept/premise; I doubt you are a 'first timer' here. The free will aspect is that you can change what you had initially planned for this life, and usually do causing backlash for your next life incarnation or best of senarios a miracle that cancels or nuetralizes any reason to have to return here. The point is to return to your Creator eventually.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Yes, yes i know what you are talking about.
there was a movie about reincarnation oncew called
i forget what it was called




















No it was called Groundhog Day.

Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Yes, yes i know what you are talking about.
there was a movie about reincarnation on encore called
i forget what it was called
No it was called Groundhog Day.

Perfect. Anytime someone can ground an idea in a film..goes a long way with me. Best teaching agents ever to our blindness.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


I was being facetous
about reincarnation.

reply to post by slugger9787

If the following statement is true
"Every sin by every person committed on earth is part of Gods design."

God does not design sin and error, so..... "every sin....is God's design"
is incorrect due to the fact that WE deviate from God's design and God's
plan by way of and use of FREE WILL.

"God" does not design sin and error? Cognitive dissonance, man. Seriously, get a handle on that. There was nothing in the beginning but "God". All that sin and error had to come from somewhere, right? Please tell me that you're not seriously implying that he didn't create everything. That's blasphemous.

Did you even think about reading my post?

The Bible has made it clear that "God" is all-powerful in every sense of the phrase. This is accepted in churches all around the globe. He is omniscient and omnipotent, they say. He has no equal. Let's break it down for the members of ATS. In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:

1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.

2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.

At any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made.

In this sense, free will is an illusion for every single creature and object that isn't "God". All choices pass through his screening process before we are ever aware of the opportunity to make those choices, but we think we have free will because we can't miss a choice we never had. And "God", knowing this, is laughing all the while.

I look at it like a circle of dots. If you see the whole circle, you can choose one at random and count all the way around until you reach it again. But if you only see a small portion of it at a time, twenty dots become an infinite number because your perception leads you to believe that there is still more dots to be followed. Because of your limited perception, you remain ignorant of the reality of the circle, and you chase yourself in circles for your entire existence, because you never realize you're tracing the same path. Now say a loop extends from that circle, leading back around to it. You follow that loop and you believe you've found an entirely new circle. Sometimes, it changes color just to sustain that illusion. But it's still the same circle.

That's called the illusion of free will. You see it everywhere, if only you can peek outside the little box of your limited perception. It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

According to the above system of logical deduction, which operates under the assumption that the Bible is fully accurate, "God" is the only entity since the very beginning who has ever possessed true free will. All else is determined by his choices, every second in every single space of existence throughout the universe. We are the puppets in the stories he writes. And if we don't play our roles as he wills it, then we are condemned. Because that makes us broken puppets. And his palace has no room for broken puppets. He has already said this.

Try and argue your way out of that one.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


did you even think
about my post
after you read it?

reply to post by slugger9787

did you even think
about my post
after you read it?

Your post implies "God" lacks control. That's a no-no.