No mind without faith.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

So it is the ones who couragiously DIE for such convicitions are the heros; not the ones who defend and not have to die

If you're not willing to suffer, or die, for a belief, or an idea, then how much do you really believe in it? To die for what you believe in is not a must; but to be willing to die for the things you believe in, that is. Living to defend your beliefs is not nearly as poignant as perishing for them. All of the greatest spiritual and religious teachers, the world over, have not "run away" from confrontation, just so they could live to preach another day. They faced their mortality, and finite nature head-on. Often, they died to prove their dedication to a cause, an idea, or a belief. If you're not willing to go to the same lengths, then you aren't ad devoted as you think.

I can think of millions and millions of Christians that did just that, 'cowards' all of them; you maybe are one of them?

I am not a Christian. I believe in neither the historicity, nor the divinity, of Jesus Christ.

Many people of every creed have perished in the action of preserving their faith.

• Thousands of Roman pagans were killed by Temple Destroyers and Christian mobs in Rome, once Christianity became the state-religion. Often times the Christian was idolized and held up as a state hero after his heinous acts had been committed. Was it cowardice for the pagans to die? Would real courage have been to abandon their faith and "accept" Jesus Christ because they were threatened?

• More than ten thousand Anglo-Saxons were murdered by the Church when they failed to adopt Catholicism, or pay unfair Church taxes. Was this also cowardice? Should the Anglo-Saxons have abandoned their cultural heritage, accepted Christianity, and just shrugged their shoulders saying: "well, whatcha gonna do?" and then paid the unfair tax? Where do you think America would be today if they had accepted your interpretation of "courage," and just lived under unfair taxation?

• Tens of thousands of Gaelic Celtic men and children were beheaded between the 16th and 17th century when Catholic missionaries asked them to convert to Christianity. They refused, because their own religion, they felt, was more spiritual than the Christian one. In response, all of their heads were staked along every road in Ireland as a way to induce conversion through fear. Courage, or cowardice, standing up for the things you believe in, your heritage, the culture which has been your's since birth?

• An unknown number of individuals across Europe died defending their innocence during the Medieval, Spanish, Portuguese, and Roman Inquisitions, between 1100 and 1800. Those people preserved their honor, by not buckling to Church authority. By going to their deaths with pride, despite the false accusations. Rather than show fear, weakness, or cowardice; they accepted their lot, and went to reap their eternal rewards for never abandoning who they were.

And I never said Christians could not be courageous either. A human being is measured, not by his faith, but by his actions in light of his faith. Good men can do great things; evil made can perform despicable deeds, and whether one knows Jesus or not, means absolutely nothing.

I would be honored to die beside a Christian who truly believed, and lived, by every letter, law, and command of his Savior, without fear, or hesitation. Even though I disagree with many of those laws, it is still better to die dedicated, then wavering and flighty.

How does reality work its way in here, belief systems are based in the intangible, that being truths held by the individual ownership of

Interesting. Now you agree with me that faith is based on non-reality. Very interesting.

Why can you not be delusional and a truth sayer at the same time?

Because you're experiencing delusions?

Why can one not be firmly rooted in reality and spouting lies

They can. And you know I never said liars couldn't exist in reality. I said that only delusional liars preach something, without having the wherewithal to suffer for their cause.

~ Wandering

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe IN REPLY TO VETHUMANBEING

vethumanbeing
So it is the ones who couragiously DIE for such convicitions are the heros; not the ones who defend and not have to die

wandering scribe
If you're not willing to suffer, or die, for a belief, or an idea, then how much do you really believe in it? To die for what you believe in is not a must; but to be willing to die for the things you believe in, that is. Living to defend your beliefs is not nearly as poignant as perishing for them. All of the greatest spiritual and religious teachers, the world over, have not "run away" from confrontation, just so they could live to preach another day. They faced their mortality, and finite nature head-on. Often, they died to prove their dedication to a cause, an idea, or a belief. If you're not willing to go to the same lengths, then you aren't ad devoted as you think.

I have a problem with belief systems in general, as in ALL OF THEM. I doubt you are THE Rodins original thinker flesh and bone. Your ideas come from a non-Christian source basis. Why would I have to defend my natural state of being to anyone. You contradict yourself. Most spiritual leaders have designed an insulated system of survival; their armies of the multitudes; the minions protect them. Not one of yours has died for their beliefs if you could identify them (oak trees dying off by the hundreds near I10, it is thought it was a soul group decision by consensus). John the Babist was an annoyance, a plaything for Salome, Jesus should have walked away after Pilots stern warning (check the bleeding whiplashes). I think they were manipulated. I would not have put myself in a position of WEAKNESS and would NEVER then have to add or cut the length of my Hanging Rope.

vethumanbeing
I can think of millions and millions of Christians that did just that, 'cowards' all of them; you maybe are one of them? How does reality work its way in here, belief systems are based in the intangible, that being truths held by the individual ownership of

wandering scribe
Interesting. Now you agree with me that faith is based on non-reality. Very interesting.

You dont qualify in understanding the Christian faith. Your arguement ends. We could discuss the nature and suicidal tendencies of oak trees however.

vethumanbeing
Why can one not be firmly rooted in reality and spouting lies

wandering scribe
They can. And you know I never said liars couldn't exist in reality. I said that only delusional liars preach something, without having the wherewithal to suffer for their cause.

Delusional liars would not know the difference.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
I am not a Christian. I believe in neither the historicity, nor the divinity, of Jesus Christ.
Many people of every creed have perished in the action of preserving their faith.
And I never said Christians could not be courageous either. A human being is measured, not by his faith, but by his actions in light of his faith. Good men can do great things; evil made can perform despicable deeds, and whether one knows Jesus or not, means absolutely nothing.
I would be honored to die beside a Christian who truly believed, and lived, by every letter, law, and command of his Savior, without fear, or hesitation. Even though I disagree with many of those laws, it is still better to die dedicated, then wavering and flighty.

You would be honored to die for something intangible. These people you speak of were not killed because of their faith (That Was An Excuse), it was for whatever could be robbed from them: LAND. You are very idealistic. A human being is measured by the casket it is buried in; the amount of wood or combusiables to burn the body. Evil is a manmade contrivance blamed upon invisable unviable lessor godforms (MAKEBELIEVE notions). What in this world would cause you to doubt your own being, what laws are you speaking of that you would die for, apparently not the ones of common sense.