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The fact that they had to vote over basic theological matters demonstrates that Christians were still arguing among themselves. There were a number of views on the nature of Jesus.
Of course they voted, there is no other way that a collective could jointly publish a literary composition, the first Nicene Creed.
Most Christians identified Jesus as divine from a very early period, although holding a variety of competing views as to what exactly this implied. Early Christian views tended to see Jesus as a unique agent of God; by the Council of Nicaea in 325 he was identified as God in the fullest sense, being 'of the same substance, essence or being'.
wiki
I brought it up in response to your post about Pliny's witness to Christian worship of Jesus. You brought that subject up here
Save the word lawyering for your own "Just because people worship Jesus, it doesn't mean they think he's divine" thread.
I said nothing about James counselling Christians against worshiping Jesus. Thats your twist on what I actually said. My original words about James were... " Go read the book of James, where all worship is directed towards God.". That was the case even in the Gospels.
You could start by posting there where you think James counsels Christians against worhipping Jesus, but it is not the topic here.
Doctrinal evolution sums up Christian history quite nicely. Christian doctrines have always been evolving, in directions that are not in line with the Bible. Even here, we have some members who believe Jesus is actually Yahweh of the Old Testament.
Justin Martyr is a nice illustration of the state of the doctrinal evolution, as of the mid Second Century. For Justin, Jesus is the Logos, the word of God. Justin does have non-proto-orthodox features....
Justin mentioning Father, son and Holy spirit in the same line does not exactly equal "articulating" a trinity. The same is also mentioned in the Bible as well, but can be easily countered through the tons of scripture which prove that God is One. And I am not even implying that Justins view of Jesus is in line with the Muslim view. However, he does get a few things right... for instance, the idea that worship was directed towards God.
He articulates a Trinity.... There's nothing in Justin that corroborates a Muslim view of Jesus.
Paul being "as a Jew to Jews and as a Gentile to Gentiles"... indicates he was being two faced, for the sake of gaining converts. I guess he didn't think being a Christian to both Jews and Gentiles was a good idea.
There is nothing in what you quoted from 1 Corinthians which bears on the other poster's claim that Paul did "tailor it to the need of pagan roman customers to help the rulers rule peacefully over the masses."
The difference between me and Paul is that I am not seeking to gain converts.
You are, in any case, in an odd position to complain about what Paul describes there. You promote yourself here as a former Christian when addressing Christian issues, and as a Muslim when addressing Islamic issues.
The fact that they had to vote over basic theological matters demonstrates that Christians were still arguing among themselves. There were a number of views on the nature of Jesus.
Doctrinal evolution sums up Christian history quite nicely. Christian doctrines have always been evolving, in directions that are not in line with the Bible. Even here, we have some members who believe Jesus is actually Yahweh of the Old Testament.
And I am not even implying that Justins view of Jesus is in line with the Muslim view.
Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Ah the tired old "if its older, its truer" argument.
By that logic, we can also dismiss the NT as a fabrication, since it was written ages after the Torah.
Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Through Islam, 1.5 billion people accept Jesus as the messiah....
The closer the historical documentation is to the events .. the more likely they are to be accurate. The further away that they were recorded after the events .. the less likely they are to be accurate.
That's all you've got for 'good fruits' of Islam? I'm not surprised that the list is so short.
Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
But from the Jewish perspective they too could dismiss the NT as a fabrication, written 1000 years after the OT.
it was the Jews who originally had the concept of "messiah" BEFORE Christianity...
Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
and your denial of Jesus as messiah in the muslim world makes YOU an anti-Christ.
The New Testament isn't rewriting the Old Testament. It's telling a whole new story.
Muslims deny Jesus is God Incarnate.
Your denial of Jesus being Messiah in Islam makes you an anti-christ.
Proclaiming Jesus to be God Incarnate and proclaiming that He will return to judge the entire world is NOT being anti-Christ.
Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Since you are so convinced that "older is truer", lets go by how the Jews defined "messiah"... as a man and NOT God.... and discard the Christian definition of "messiah" (that he was God)
Its the Christians who have redefined the word "messiah" to mean something else.
If anything, Muslims deny the false definition of "messiah" that Christians adhere to.
Your denial of Jesus being Messiah in Islam makes you an anti-christ.
The FACTS are that the Old Testament Jews wrote their definition of 'messiah' FURTHER AWAY from the time of Christ than the New Testament did.
No. Muslims deny the historical documents showing Jesus to be God Incarnate .
Wrong. The Muslims don't know who Christ is. Your denial of Jesus being God Incarnate makes you an anti-Christ.
Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by FlyersFan
Muslims don't deny that Jesus is the Christ.
But you, however, deny Jesus as the Christ in the Islamic context. So YOU and other Christians who deny Jesus' status as the Messiah in Islam are anti-Christs.
Through Islam, 1.5 billion people DENY the truth of the New Testament. They DENY the historical accounts of Jesus recorded in the New Testament. They DENY that Jesus is God Incarnate because they have been indoctrinated with the FICTIONAL stories that Muhammad made up 600+ years after Jesus walked the earth.
Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
The Old Testament Jews defined the messiah as being a human being, NOT God incarnate.
Christians who came AFTER the Old Testament Jews have redefined "messiah" to mean he was God incarnate.
Christians who deny Jewish documents that define the messiah as a human being. Muslims are going with the original definition of a human messiah.
But you, however, deny Jesus as the Christ in the Islamic context. So YOU and other Christians who deny Jesus' status as the Messiah in Islam are anti-Christs.
Originally posted by logical7
The NT however is a story about him and can contain facts and FICTIONS equally.
Historical records can prove only death on the cross on the contrary if eyewitness accounts of his sighting after crucifixtion are taken as true then it actually would point that he survived!
Historians see the sightings as unreliable/fictional accounts that were added to promote the new religion.
if it can happen that Jesus pbuh got divine revealations(Gospel) then prophet Muhammad pbuh can also get it(Qur'an)
You should try and know the objective history from academic sources, rather than blindly believing half baked stories about him that are told on anti-islamic sites.
I feel that you dont really want the truth as these false stories make you feel good and more certain about your own faith.
Muhammad was a mass murdering thief. His so called 'revelations' contradict the first hand accounts of the New Testament.
Muhammad being a murderer and a
liar are well documented. You should
try to know the objective history from
academic sources rather than blindly
believing the half baked pius stories
made up by his followers.
Dead wrong. I know the truth about
Muhammad. He was a bad man and a
liar.
hmm.. hard to believe, but maybe i am really brainwashed by islam
It's very clear and has nothing to do
with me sticking to 'my faith' -
whatever it is.
thats good, so i have hope of having better discussions with yoù with time.
My beliefs change as I learn more. My
beliefs are fluid.
As everyones who isn't brainwashed
should be.
Originally posted by logical7
it very depressing that a religion based on a lie is flourishing too well.
I could easily say, based on scripture, that being anti-Christ is anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus is God's son.
1 John 2:22
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.