John, Mary and Jesus in the Qur'an. Surah Maryam

reply to post by logical7

Whats your point? Are you telling that he authenticated the Nicene creed?

No. What I'm saying is that these people had access to scriptures (just as we know them) and Jesus told them repeatedly to make themselves familiar with them because he was getting ready to fulfill them.

How many times do we see Jesus say, "it is written" or "is it not written"? He let's them know when scripture is being fulfilled. In Luke 24:44, he's telling people specifically that the servant of the Lord, angel of the Lord, and the Messiah that were written about were all him!!

You'll find a keyword search in an online Bible for "it is written", "is it not written" and "I am he" very enlightening.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by logical7

 

we believe both as prophets and both are equal to us, infact, all prophets deserve equal respect.

Then why don't you believe anything that Jesus taught about himself?

ok tell me what he taught about himself. Give me all his quotes and we'l accept whatever image comes out of it. God/son of God or a prophet & Messiah. Do u agree?

reply to post by logical7


All of what Jesus taught in his own words can be found in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

If you want to see some of the Old Testament quotes that Jesus referred to, you can find a list of them in the links below, but I'm not sure that the "I am he" reference is listed in these particular lists. I found some on my own just by doing keyword searches and quotes in an online Bible.

www.biblepgs.com...

www.bible.ca...

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by logical7

 

Read verse 20 carefully. Jesus asked God to "deliver my soul from the sword". To save means to save the soul, not the body.

come on my friend, was Jesus pbuh worried that the romans would poke a hole in his soul? Was the soul ever in danger? Is anybody's soul ever in danger?
When the message 'SOS' is sent, it means Save Our Soul. Does it mean let me die but make sure my soul is not harmed?

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by logical7

 

Whats your point? Are you telling that he authenticated the Nicene creed?

No. What I'm saying is that these people had access to scriptures (just as we know them) and Jesus told them repeatedly to make themselves familiar with them because he was getting ready to fulfill them.

How many times do we see Jesus say, "it is written" or "is it not written"? He let's them know when scripture is being fulfilled. In Luke 24:44, he's telling people specifically that the servant of the Lord, angel of the Lord, and the Messiah that were written about were all him!!

You'll find a keyword search in an online Bible for "it is written", "is it not written" and "I am he" very enlightening.

here is it

42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate before them. 44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you
while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the
Law of Moses and the Prophets and
the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

i never denied that he was fulfilling the scriptures, i believe that he is Messiah and taught repentance from sins as is says in Luke later.
But let me ask about verse 42,43, he ate earthly food. Why? Again to fulfill something?
It just shows that he still has earthly body with earthly needs also had the wound marks, will a ressurected body show these signs?
He is fulfilling whats written but how do you interpet it? Ungodly people try to kill him, he quotes psalm 22 and you say they bested God?!!
He says he'l give the sign of Jonnah and you say he died and got raised up? did Jonnah die in the whale?

I understand your faith good enough, do you see what i am pointing even for a moment without trying to find a reply to it.

reply to post by Deetermined


more from Luke 24
13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus,
which was from Jerusalem about
threescore furlongs. 14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and
reasoned, Jesus himself drew near,
and went with them. 16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. 17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these
that ye have one to another, as ye
walk, and are sad? 18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him,
Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem,
and hast not known the things which
are come to pass there in these days? 19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him,
Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which
was a prophet mighty in deed and
word before God and all the people: 20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned
to death, and have crucified him. 21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel:
and beside all this, to day is the third
day since these things were done. 22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which
were early at the sepulchre; 23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had
also seen a vision of angels, which
said that he was alive. 24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and
found it even so as the women had
said: but him they saw not. 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the
prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his
glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in
all the scriptures the things concerning
himself. 28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he
made as though he would have gone
further. 29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening,
and the day is far spent. And he went
in to tarry with them. 30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and
blessed it, and brake, and gave to
them.

Psalm 22 ends with the one calling God being saved by God. I would never understand how 'saving' means letting die and then raising up again? Its like failing and then using the power as being God to correct it.

As opposed to what? Letting him die and leaving him in the tomb?

And what did Jesus himself do for Lazarus of Bethany, if not "save him from death?" Before the raising, both Lazarus' sisters, and even onlookers, grumble about Jesus not saving his good friend. Then, the raising. No more complaints, a big party, and sister Mary is all over Jesus.

There is no such thing as a "reader-proof" text. The Gospels plainly present a response to Jesus' recitation of Psalm 22, in confidence that what happens for the singer will be given to him.

Now, if you were writing the story, or more to the point, when Mohammed did rewrite the story, you and he have a different idea about what you'd like to see as the "saving" response to the promise of the psalm. Fanfic is wonderful, of course, but it has nothing to do with the Gospel authors' intent.

Here's a simple fact, give an intelligent person an OT & Gospel and let him reach an understanding freely, he would never reach the creed.

Unfortunately, that experiment has been done. Give several intelligent people the texts, allow them to discuss it among themselves for several generations, often rudely, and the Nicene Creed is what they did come up with.

I don't have a dog in the fight, and I see where it comes from. You surely can't claim that I'm introducing my "faith" as a factor. I'm an agnsotic.

reply to post by eight bits

Unfortunately, that experiment has been done. Give several intelligent people the texts, allow them to discuss it among themselves for several generations, often rudely, and the Nicene Creed is what they did come up with.

Just out of curiosity.....got any links to this experiment?

You say you are an agnostic.... but I will say I used to consider myself Christian at one point in my life. I went from "trinitarian" to monotheist.

double please delete.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by logical7

 

Read verse 20 carefully. Jesus asked God to "deliver my soul from the sword". To save means to save the soul, not the body.

come on my friend, was Jesus pbuh worried that the romans would poke a hole in his soul? Was the soul ever in danger? Is anybody's soul ever in danger?
When the message 'SOS' is sent, it means Save Our Soul. Does it mean let me die but make sure my soul is not harmed?

You can't poke a hole in someone's soul. When Jesus asked God to "deliver my soul from sword", he meant from final destruction that leads to permanent death and no after life.

Yes, people's souls are in danger of being permanently destroyed.

Matthew 10:28

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

reply to post by eight bits

Now, if you were writing the story, or more to the point, when Mohammed did rewrite the story, you and he have a different idea about what you'd like to see as the "saving" response to the promise of the psalm. Fanfic is wonderful, of course, but it has nothing to do with the Gospel authors' intent.

Fanfic is sure good, but do you consider fanfic by paul and church as truth, how you believe it blindly, if you are an agnostic, you do know or at least you should know who started this christianity, it was surely not Jesùs pbuh. Claiming his name or his visions is not authority enough to hijack a simple monotheistic belief and tailor it to the need of pagan roman customers to help the rulers rule peacefully over the masses.

reply to post by logical7

i never denied that he was fulfilling the scriptures, i believe that he is Messiah and taught repentance from sins as is says in Luke later. But let me ask about verse 42,43, he ate earthly food. Why? Again to fulfill something?

I think that Jesus eating after his resurrection was just a sign of what we're going to be able to do in the next life. The Bible says that in the afterlife, we will never be hungry, grow tired, or be weak. I believe the afterlife will be like the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve sinned and were kicked out of the garden. There will be the tree of life for us to eat from as mentioned in Revelation 22.

It just shows that he still has earthly body with earthly needs also had the wound marks, will a ressurected body show these signs?

It will be an "incorruptible body" as described in the Bible. See comments above. I may post some scripture to detail this later or you can just Google "incorruptible body".

He is fulfilling whats written but how do you interpet it? Ungodly people try to kill him, he quotes psalm 22 and you say they bested God?!! He says he'l give the sign of Jonnah and you say he died and got raised up? did Jonnah die in the whale?

I believe Jesus fulfilled scripture to prove that he was sent from the God that led the Israelites out of Egypt. There were many other gods being worshiped back then and Jesus came to show why his God was the one true God.

I believe that Jonah did die in the whale and was resurrected. I think Jesus used this as a reference to prove resurrection, but Jonah did not resurrect into an "incorruptible body" like Jesus did. Lazarus was raised from the dead too in his human body.

reply to post by logical7

you should know who started this christianity, it was surely not Jesùs pbuh. Claiming his name or his visions is not authority enough to hijack a simple monotheistic belief

Yup. If David Koresh had lived 2000 years ago... and had claimed visions....his writing could have made it to the final canon of the bible....and people would be quoting him today.

reply to post by Deetermined

When Jesus asked God to "deliver my soul from sword", he meant from final destruction that leads to permanent death and no after life.

sinless Jesus pbuh would want to get delivered from final destruction? He was going to heaven no matter what. Right?
And please dont preach something not related to what we are discussing, you dont have to reply, just to reply.
I believe Jesus' soul was in no danger neither by sword nor by final destruction, he was a mighty prophet and God's obedient servant and Messiah and his reading psalm 22 is just fulfilling the scriptures to let it be clear that nobody can best God.

reply to post by logical7


No, Jesus' soul was not in danger, but that didn't keep him from experiencing his death from a human standpoint either, because that's the way it was already written in the Bible.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by logical7

 

i never denied that he was fulfilling the scriptures, i believe that he is Messiah and taught repentance from sins as is says in Luke later. But let me ask about verse 42,43, he ate earthly food. Why? Again to fulfill something?

I think that Jesus eating after his resurrection was just a sign of what we're going to be able to do in the next life. The Bible says that in the afterlife, we will never be hungry, grow tired, or be weak. I believe the afterlife will be like the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve sinned and were kicked out of the garden. There will be the tree of life for us to eat from as mentioned in Revelation 22.

It just shows that he still has earthly body with earthly needs also had the wound marks, will a ressurected body show these signs?

It will be an "incorruptible body" as described in the Bible. See comments above. I may post some scripture to detail this later or you can just Google "incorruptible body".

He is fulfilling whats written but how do you interpet it? Ungodly people try to kill him, he quotes psalm 22 and you say they bested God?!! He says he'l give the sign of Jonnah and you say he died and got raised up? did Jonnah die in the whale?

I believe Jesus fulfilled scripture to prove that he was sent from the God that led the Israelites out of Egypt. There were many other gods being worshiped back then and Jesus came to show why his God was the one true God.

I believe that Jonah did die in the whale and was resurrected. I think Jesus used this as a reference to prove resurrection, but Jonah did not resurrect into an "incorruptible body" like Jesus did. Lazarus was raised from the dead too in his human body.

tree of life which grows broiled fish and honeycomb? Earhtly food for earthly man who survived fits better.
Incorruptible body with nail wounds? So if a man dies by half his face being blown off, he will resurrect with half face!!!
Dee, you are not reading what i write, please show objectivity in the discussion. Keep faith out and agree on things that make sense. I respect your choice to be a christian but do you see how it doesnt sell to anyone who doesnt already have that 'faith.'

reply to post by Deetermined

I believe that Jonah did die in the whale

here

1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, 2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard
me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and
thou heardest my voice. 3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods
compassed me about: all thy billows
and thy waves passed over me. 4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy
temple. 5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round
about, the weeds were wrapped
about my head. 6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars
was about me for ever: yet hast thou
brought up my life from corruption, O
LORD my God. 7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer
came in unto thee, into thine holy
temple. 8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy. 9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that
that I have vowed. Salvation is of the
LORD. 10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry
land.

i heard the stories as kid and i bet you did too, never was told that he died, now will you invent his death to fit your creed?

reply to post by logical7

Incorruptible body with nail wounds? So if a man dies by half his face being blown off, he will resurrect with half face!!!

Jesus said the wounds would remain for all those who rejected him to see.

They will recognize him from his wounds and be reminded of what they had done.

For the rest of us, no, our bodies will be perfected and I'm sure the wounds that Jesus shows will go away before the new heaven/earth comes down.

reply to post by logical7


All I know is that Jesus used the story of Jonah as significance regarding "three days", just like he used the significance of a temple being raised in "three days" as a symbol regarding his resurrection.

The Bible does not state exactly the state of which Jonah had been in, but I personally believe there are some parallels in Jonah and the story of what happened to Christ after he died and before he resurrected.

Jonah 2:1-3

2 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,

2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

Matthew 12:40-41

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

and while Jesus was in the heart of the earth...

1 Peter 3:18-20

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Put all of those verses together and I believe Jonah died. Whether or not he really did, I don't care, it doesn't matter to me.

reply to post by logical7

tree of life which grows broiled fish and honeycomb? Earhtly food for earthly man who survived fits better.

Here's what you don't realize. Although Jesus was able to eat, he was able to appear in the midst of his disciples without opening a door. The door to the room they were in was locked and they did not unlock it for Jesus to let him in. He appeared and then it says he disappeared.

We're going to have bodies that can transform into anything we want them to, in my opinion. They will be able to transform between a physical state and a spiritual state, much like I believe the angels can and do. Compare the stories in Genesis 15, 16 and 17. You'll see "men" that show up at Abraham's door and they eat with him, by the time these "men" show up in the next location they are referred to as "angels" in the Bible and last but not least one of them is called "Lord". I believe that we'll be able to transition back and forth, but that's just my opinion based on the hints that the Bible gives us.

ETA: IMO, anything we're capable of imagining is possible through God, so why do we want to limit it? Is it just that hard for some brains to comprehend that?