John, Mary and Jesus in the Qur'an. Surah Maryam

reply to post by eight bits

We needn't reach the question of whether Jesus was God

Only if you refuse to look at the matter from a theological perspective. Historical records of Christian worship practices are valid, yes... but the Bible has a larger say on the matter. And the Bible refutes the claim that Jesus is God. Rather, we learn that he was a man who was approved by God and God heard Jesus because of his obedience. Hardly fitting for somebody who was "God".

Among the Abrahamics, almost everybody who believes that Jesus was the Messiah and had a father also believes that Jesus is divine.

And that group would be Christians.

Judaism: No on Messiah, Yes on father
Islam: Yes on Messiah, No on father
Chrisitianity: Yes on both

Except the Jews and Christians ideas about God as "Father" are not the same.
The Jews see God as the Father of all, i.e - that we are all Gods children.
The Christian definition of God as "Father" is that he is Father to Jesus, who is described as His only "begotten son".

Thus, Christian ideas about Jesus' divinity did not originate with Constantine, contrary to your claim.

Jesus' status of divinity was formalized at the Council of Nicea.
Till then, there were varying beliefs about his status, some believed he was a man... some believed he was divine. But after trinitarianism won the vote, it was enforced as THE only truth. (Look up Theodosius I) Hardly any wonder that alternative views on the nature of Jesus was stomped out.

Despite the council's ruling, controversy continued. By the time of accession, there were still several different Church factions that promoted alternative Christology.

So, Christians were worshipping Jesus and not other men two centuries before Constantine ruled.

According to Pliny, an outsider.
Christians may have worshiped Jesus....in error or Pliny mistook veneration of Jesus as a form of Godly worship. As I showed you earlier, Christians held a number of beliefs on as to who they had to worship. Justins accounts show that God was worshiped.

And as far as the most important source, the Bible is concerned...all worship and prayer was directed towards God and God alone. Even during Jesus' time, only God was worshiped. Jesus himself worshiped God.

(continued)

As I mentioned, your remark about James is off-topic here. If you don't want to pursue it in your own thread, that's fine, but I'm not going to derail this thread to accommodate you.

So wait, you can quote Pliny to argue your case that Jesus was worshiped, but I'm not allowed to cite Biblical proof such as James, that it was God and not Jesus who was worshiped?

The Bible, whether Jewish or Christian, has always been directed to thinking people, who consult it to learn and to grow in spirituality through critical reflection upon the text.

Speaking of thinking people and reflection of the text... the Koran does just that...
“This is a blessed Book which We have revealed to you, O Muhammad, that they might reflect upon its verses and that those of understanding would be reminded.”

But... this isn't a Koran vs Bible competition, so I'll leave it at that.

Good, then we can set him aside. His views aren't in strict line with those of Nicene Christians, either. Although they are close, differing mainly on whether the Logos is co-eternal with God or merely antecedent to all else that is. Either way, Justin agrees with his Nicene successors that Jesus is the only incarnation of the Logos,

Why set him aside?
Justins accounts that God was worshiped directly counters Pliny's account that Jesus was worshiped as God.

and that Jesus' father is God.

And Jesus' Father being God is a moot point, because....
a) The Bible also calls David the father of Jesus.
b) David and Adam were also called sons of God. So it kind of dampens the claim about Jesus being the "only begotten son" of God.

Originally posted by colbe
logical7, scorpion,

Anyone who believes in Islam. Reject it.

Please come to the Truth, to Jesus Christ, He loves you.

I am posting a photo, it is so horrid. Our evil President, BHO is a Muslim. He supports the Muslim Brotherhood and so does Congress (not all)!

Jesus Mercy, there are no words, look at this photo.

politicalvelcraft.org... hey-crucify-our-christians-they-must-be-stopped/

How come pro-Muslims here do not reply to the photo? What is it going to take to change your hearts?

Islam is not based on love, quite the opposite. Sooo....frightening.

reply to post by colbe

How come pro-Muslims here do not reply to the photo? What is it going to take to change your hearts?

Should I post pictures of burnt, mutilated muslim women and children who were killed by American bombing under the command of born again Christian George W. Bush?... and ask you for an explanation on as to why Christians are doing this to other humans?

Scorpie

Rather, we learn that he was a man ...

Which, in the distinctively Christian revelation, is no reason at all to think that he isn't God. Other Abrahamics differ, on the basis of their way of reading their own and Christian texts.

You seem unable to distinguish between what a text says, and what a reader reads in a text. You are entitled to your own reading, but you are not entitled to portray your reading as objectively better founded in the text than the consensus of billions of readers and hearers over the course of millennia.

Yes, maybe you're right and the billions are wrong. But if so, then it won't be because the text says so, and it probably won't be because you're so much better a reader than those billions who preceded you. To claim otherwise, to speak frankly, makes you sound like a crackpot.

Jesus' status of divinity was formalized at the Council of Nicea.

Repetition of this fantasy doesn't change history. Again, it just makes you sound like a crackpot.

BTW, maybe you should look up Theodosius I instead telling others to. He wasn't emperor until decades after Nicea. He even comes after Constantinople, for crying out loud.

And again, BS posturing like "Look up so-and-so," as if everybody doesn't already know about it, and you're taking them to school, just makes you sound more like a crackpot.

Justins accounts show that God was worshiped.

Make up your mind on whether you want to argue Justin, what you want to argue about him, in which thread and with whom.

And as far as the most important source, the Bible is concerned...all worship and prayer was directed towards God and God alone. Even during Jesus' time, only God was worshiped. Jesus himself worshiped God.

You keep assuming the consequent. Worship of Jesus is worship of God, according to your opponents. Everybody agrees what the words in the Bible are. So, if you want to support your reading instead of somebody else's, then you need some other source. In fact, your source is the Koran. Your opponents think less of that as a source than you do.

So wait, you can quote Pliny to argue your case that Jesus was worshiped, but I'm not allowed to cite Biblical proof such as James, that it was God and not Jesus who was worshiped?

If you can't even correctly read a web posting, then why should anybody care how you read something complicated?

Justins accounts that God was worshiped directly counters Pliny's account that Jesus was worshiped as God.

Oh. I guess you really are unable to read correctly something complicated.

Well, at least it's on-topic, because that is a genuine "Hail, Mary pass."

So it kind of dampens the claim about Jesus being the "only begotten son" of God.

Earlier in the post, you cited "The Bible" as authority, the "most important source," you said:

And as far as the most important source, the Bible is concerned...

That Jesus is God's only son is in the Bible, John 1: 18, 3: 16 and 1 John 4: 9.

(Slipping in the "begotten" as the King James does is a reasonable construction of the Greek phrase monogenes theos, which appears at 1: 18... which is actually a moderate translation. Some people translate that phrase literally: "the only son, God.")

Depending on the point you're making, you have in the past emphasized "what Jesus said" apart from the rest of the canonical New Testament. You got it right this time. The whole thing is of equal authority. Just like the Koran.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Deetermined

 

Its saying a man who denies Jesus as messiah is the anti-christ who denies God and the messiah.
Muslims accept God and the messiah. But you deny Jesus as the Christ in Islam, thereby making you an anti-Christ.

Don't be so sure. There's a reason that it's stressed that Jesus is the "Son".

Matthew 16:15-17

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

As for the "Father-son" argument, its purely symbolic. Jesus is also called "the son of David".... and David and Adam are also called son of God. So by your logic, you should also consider David and Adam as divine sons of God.

They are not considered divine sons of God. That's the reason why Jesus' title as "Son" is capitalized and the others are not. Jesus is the only begotten Son. The believers were called "sons of God" because they believed in and followed the one true God. Jesus was called "son of David" because of his bloodline, but once again, it is not capitalized. There's significance in Jesus' relationship to God as "Son".

The question you need to ask yourself is why did Muhammad consider Jesus as only a prophet, but repeated the virgin birth story. He totally contradicted himself when he did that.

reply to post by eight bits

Which, in the distinctively Christian revelation, is no reason at all to think that he isn't God. Other Abrahamics differ, on the basis of their way of reading their own and Christian texts.

Jesus operated within the existing Abrahamic religious framework. (Hence all his references to the "law", OT prophets and the One God.) This Abrahamic religion, did NOT include Christian ideas such as God becoming man or God being a trinity. They were, at some point, injected into the religion that emerged after Jesus, but Jesus himself never taught any of that.

Furthermore, "messiah" in Abrahamic religion was defined as a man and NOT God. So Christian ideas of the messiah being God, trinity etc. are their own inventions. All those ideas fall outside of the original religious tradition Jesus was part of.

Repetition of this fantasy doesn't change history. Again, it just makes you sound like a crackpot.

The only fantasy here is the one that you are propagating, that Christians worshiped Jesus because of Pliny's account. It makes you sound like a ....well, Christian crackpot.

BTW, maybe you should look up Theodosius I instead telling others to. He wasn't emperor until decades after Nicea. He even comes after Constantinople, for crying out loud.

I wasn't even talking about his timing... nor was I claiming that Theosodius was part of the Council.
My point about Theodosius I is that he fiercely promoted Nicene ideas, which is why other competing views were stomped out. Him showing up after Nicea does not magically invalidate the fact that he promoted Nicene ideas, while suppressing others.

These laws (Theodosian Codes 16.1.2 and 16.5.6) are significant for many reasons. They mark the first time the legal code coerced people to become Christians. They made orthodox catholic Christianity the official dogma of the church and suppressed the Arian factions. The laws established a pattern which would become more pronounced as Theodosius' reign progressed of using the apparatus of the state to suppress diversity of religious opinion. The church can only regret that before all was done, people calling themselves Christians persecuted pagans, Arians, Manichees, and Jews. Many of the persecutors did not hold the name Christian out of zeal for Christ, but because it was politically correct.

www.christianity.com...

But you can keep telling yourself that the timing of Theodosius' becoming emperor, magically invalidates all those facts.

Worship of Jesus is worship of God, according to your opponents. Everybody agrees what the words in the Bible are.

Its just you and the Christians who are in agreement regarding the words of the Bible.

Make up your mind on whether you want to argue Justin, what you want to argue about him, in which thread and with whom.

Regarding Justin : Every time you post Plinys account to make your case that Jesus was worshiped...you can expect Justins account that God was worshiped. Not that I agree with every single thing Justin believed in, but his account of worship being directed to God is more in line with what the Bible teaches. Which is why I mentioned Justin.
Doesn't matter what thread this is discussed in... as long as the question of "worship" is raised, any thread would do.

Or perhaps, we could just drop Justin, and go with what the Bible teaches about worship?

That Jesus is God's only son is in the Bible, John 1: 18, 3: 16 and 1 John 4: 9.

You don't seem to know the Bible well enough to know that Adam and David are also called "sons of God". (Luke 3:38 and Psalms 2:7).
Jesus can't be the "only son" when 2 others are also called "son". That pretty much invalidates one of the most famous verses, the so called "gospel in a nutshell", John 3:16.

This poses a logical conundrum to anybody making the "only son" claim... both Christians and agnostics.

If you can't even correctly read a web posting, then why should anybody care how you read something complicated?

I can read web postings just fine.
You, on the other hand... have demonstrated more than once (in this thread and others) that you haven't properly understood the very book / religion you are trying to defend. Its ok, I guess considering you are agnostic and all, but it establishes that there's no reason to take your ill-informed comments on the biblical religion seriously.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Jesus operated within the existing Abrahamic religious framework. (Hence all his references to the "law", OT prophets and the One God.) This Abrahamic religion, did NOT include Christian ideas such as God becoming man or God being a trinity. They were, at some point, injected into the religion that emerged after Jesus, but Jesus himself never taught any of that.

You're wrong.

Read John, chapter 14.

Seriously, do you really think that a mere human is capable of saving the Jews from everything they face today? This is where the Jews made their mistake. Thinking it was humanly possible.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


People need to start taking note of when the word son is capitalized or not. If it's capitalized, it's referring to Jesus, it it's not, it's referring to other believers.

Jesus = Son of God, Son of man
Jews = sons of God, sons of man

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
It makes you sound like a ....well, Christian crackpot.

Seriuosly dude .. your continued Islam agenda filled posts that completely misrepresent and misunderstand christianity are NUTTIER THAN SQUIRREL POOP .. and yet you think a Chrsitian who actually understands Christianity and explains it very well sounds lke a 'crackpot'? yeah ..... okay.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Seriuosly dude .. your continued Islam agenda filled posts that completely misrepresent and misunderstand christianity are NUTTIER THAN SQUIRREL POOP .. and yet you think a Chrsitian who actually understands Christianity and explains it very well sounds lke a 'crackpot'? yeah ..... okay

User eight bit is not Christian. He claims to be an agnostic...

Also that was in response to a few things HE said.

just makes you sound more like a crackpot.

makes you sound like a crackpot.

I debate Christians daily on these boards, and I refrain from calling them names... and the Christians on ATS reciprocate in the same way.

But our agnostic friend here seems to be ok with ad hominem attacks. Normally I don't engage in arguments with atheists / agnostics... but I guess I was misled by his initial politeness.

reply to post by Deetermined

People need to start taking note of when the word son is capitalized or not. If it's capitalized, it's referring to Jesus, it it's not, it's referring to other believers.

So the original Greek, in which the NT was written in.... had capital letters?
Interesting, to say the least.

Scorpie

My point about Theodosius I is that he fiercely promoted Nicene ideas, which is why other competing views were stomped out.

Not really. There wasn't any Fourth Century unitarian Christianity within reach of Theodosius to be stomped out. Arians, sure, but as we've already discussed, Arius' Jesus was divine, but subordinate to the Father.

(We only have Arius via his enemies, but Theodoret relays to us this description of Jesus in the letter to Eusebius of Nicomedia,

"But we say and believe and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten, nor in any way part of the unbegotten; and that he does not derive his subsistence from any matter; but that by his own will and counsel he has subsisted before time and before ages as perfect God, only begotten and unchangeable, and that before he was begotten, or created, or purposed, or established, he was not."

God, subordinate to the Father in the sense of having been created before time began, but perfect God ever since.

ecole.evansville.edu...)

Its just you and the Christians who are in agreement regarding the words of the Bible.

What are you quoting from then? To whom are you quoting it? Why are you pretending to quote the Bible, if there is disagreement between you and your Christian audience about what the words of the Bible are?

Regarding Justin : Every time you post Plinys account to make your case that Jesus was worshiped...you can expect Justins account that God was worshiped.

Fine with me. Justin was a Trinitarian. Of course he worshipped God, Father, Son and Spirit. Pliny witnessed, even earlier than Justin, Jesus' deification by Christians who refused to worship other gods and renounce Jesus, even on pain of death. Which, as it happens, is how Justin died in his time.

Jesus can't be the "only son" when 2 others are also called "son".

See, there's your fantasy problem again. Jesus is called the only son of God in John and 1 John, so there is no "can't" - it happened. Try to come to terms with it.

I can read web postings just fine.

You managed to hide your skill well. Whenever you want to discuss what I wrote, just let me know.

Finally, two points of privilege, Scorpie

First, I told you how some aspects of your posts sound. If you don't enjoy making that impression, then stop posting as if you were a crackpot. Whether you are a crackpot, I didn't say. Make of that silence whatever you choose.

Second, it is not your place to take offense on my behalf at being described as Christian. I am obviously a Western cultural Christian. It is no more inaccurate to call me a "Christian" than it is to call Woody Allen a "Jew." If I have some problem with how another poster describes me to some third party, then I'll take it up with the poster in U2U.
-

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Deetermined

 

People need to start taking note of when the word son is capitalized or not. If it's capitalized, it's referring to Jesus, it it's not, it's referring to other believers.

So the original Greek, in which the NT was written in.... had capital letters?
Interesting, to say the least.

The Difference between Teknon and Huios as used in the New Testament

stempublishing.com...

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
it very depressing that a religion based on a lie is flourishing too well.

Yes, it's very depressing that there are many religions that are based on lies and that are flourishing .. or should I say ... SPREADING. (like cancer spreads). Very sad.

or maybe about two thousand years ago a great monotheistic religion came that was infected by a P-virus and turned mutant and SPREAD till God sent M-antibodies to check it and liberate back that pure monotheism. Very Hopeful

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by colbe
logical7, scorpion,

Anyone who believes in Islam. Reject it.

Please come to the Truth, to Jesus Christ, He loves you.

I am posting a photo, it is so horrid. Our evil President, BHO is a Muslim. He supports the Muslim Brotherhood and so does Congress (not all)!

Jesus Mercy, there are no words, look at this photo.

politicalvelcraft.org... hey-crucify-our-christians-they-must-be-stopped/

How come pro-Muslims here do not reply to the photo? What is it going to take to change your hearts?

Islam is not based on love, quite the opposite. Sooo....frightening.

i did check the link but dint comment as i dint find it necessary but since you asked again here.

I tried to find the opinion about islam on that website and was not surprised that it was consistent to every anti-islamic site.

I also read your offer and thanks, we already have Jesus pbuh in our lives and we love him so much that we believe that he is our Messiah who will return and try to follow his teachings maybe even more than most christians and will be ready to fight on his side when he comes back.

Btw, would you like to look into islam and try to know how it actually is?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by colbe

 

How come pro-Muslims here do not reply to the photo? What is it going to take to change your hearts?

Should I post pictures of burnt, mutilated muslim women and children who were killed by American bombing under the command of born again Christian George W. Bush?... and ask you for an explanation on as to why Christians are doing this to other humans?

skorpion and logical7,

I appreciate your replies. I wish logical7 would comment about the horrid photo of what the Muslim Brotherhood
did to that dear innocent Christian soul.

Your rebuttal, right, war is not of God. God through several messengers tried to reach President Bush and have him end the wars America has been involved in, Bush and Congress did not act in Christian way. The
same now as evil BHO and some in Congress support the Muslim Brotherhood who forced a large crucifix into the mouth of a young girl leaving it there like a marker!! She is a martyr for Christ. President Obama who is
Muslim brought about the death of the Ambassador and the others because he armed Libyan Muslims.

Islam's history is one of war, murdering Christians. We see the graphic proof today, who can forget the picture
of of our Ambassador, Christopher Stevens.

You have one soul, you choose where you wish to go when you die by your own free will. Islam is from Satan. Pray, ask God to give you the grace to believe in Him, the Triune God, not the false Muslim God. He will give you the grace. Repent of your sins and pray every day from now on...

Read this message from Our Lord:

~ ~ ~

www..jabezinaction.blogspot.com...

Saturday, March 2, 2013

Open Your Hearts To Generational Blessings


Children of My Divine Heart,
I Am that I Am. I Am the Alpha and the Omega. I Am the King of Mercy. I desire to abide in you. Open your hearts to Me. Surrender. Give Me permission to transfigure you in love. All over the Earth My Children forget to pray. Many are so taken by affairs of the world that they seem to forget My very existence. My Little Ones, please persevere. Pray. Pray without ceasing. You must take up your rosaries, and beg My clemency. Many souls call down My wrath. Millions refuse Me, refuse to serve for Love. Do not be fooled by Satan. There is an afterlife, and many of you will discover that fact upon your passing. You will curse Me for all eternity, when you receive your just judgement. You will weep, and implore My mercy, but it will be too late. Children, hear Me. I, your Father of Mercy, invite you to change. Abandon the ways of the world. Think only of your eternal destination. Make all necessary changes in your lives. Do not stray any longer. Return to Me. Time is of the essence. My master plan unfolds rapidly. You must convert while there is still time. Nations will soon be wiped off the face of the Earth. Do not doubt My warnings. Take refuge in My arms of love. Prepare for what is to come. Events foretold will happen before your very eyes. I Am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. Your ancestors knew My voice. Open your hearts to generational blessings that I have stored up for you. Do not turn your backs to My grace. I need many prayer warriors to serve for My glory. Fight for Truth. Fight for My Kingdom...

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
the tired old "if its older, its truer" argument.
By that logic, we can also dismiss the NT as a fabrication, since it was written ages after the Torah.

That is a good point, but we have to take big step back psychologically from that point no matter to what religious or spiritual extent because it explains the difference between paradox and irony. This is the reason why there is so much arguing - paradox is a nonexistent theory but the 'irony' is not only existent but it is common. So when you mix irony with paradox (which is does not exist) you have 'ego.' This is different than time as respecting the beginning but just sorting out the truth and gives a description of reality - not what people say.

reply to post by Deetermined

The question you need to ask yourself is why did Muhammad consider Jesus as only a prophet, but repeated the virgin birth story. He totally contradicted himself when he did that.

The Koran also describes Jesus as the messiah and the word of God... Jesus can be all that and still be human. The virgin birth happened because "nothing is impossible with God" as the Bible states.

That the virgin birth automatically makes Jesus divine is YOUR stipulation. The Bible tells us Jesus was first and foremost a son of Mary, who God favored.

Furthermore...
and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son - Luke 2:7

reply to post by colbe

Islam is from Satan.

Islam, through the Koran also works against Satan... by identifying him as an enemy,

Jesus said So if Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How, then, can his kingdom stand?

So the idea that Satan would start a religion that works against himself is preposterous. Of course, Christians don't always follow the words of Jesus, so its no surprise that they discard Jesus' teachings whenever it goes against what they want to believe.